Catching Pictures in the Air

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Vimto?  Aaaaggggh.  If someone comes along with Tizer ("the Appetizer"), then I am 12 once more.

 

You got me along, if a little late (been in bed with a poorly sick).  Catch A Falling Star was epic 60s goodness!

[TheBaron]

22 hours ago, rob85 said:

I howled at the above

I've just received a letter from Malvern Town Council about noise. It's frightening the squirrels apparently...

21 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Is Arctic Red a bit like Arctic Roll? Is it still actually possible to buy Arctic roll?

Apparently!

http://groceries.iceland.co.uk/birds-eye-original-arctic-roll-raspberry-260g/p/52997

21 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

She also had a Hostess trolley and did, indeed. occasionally get a fondue on the go.

Weird! I had a similarly-inclined Aunt. She also cast horoscopes and used to terrify weaker-minded members of the family with dire prognostications. Personally I just think it was wall the cheese in the fondue...

21 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Yes Tony, choose Engines from their catalogue (in the style of choosing Corgi Toys from the 1971 catalogue (the one with 'Whizzwheels), then send an email.

 

A lady will get back to you with a price and if you like it, you can just PayPal the funds.

Sounds good to me! I've a few earmarked (including one for a Potez that I didn't think would be avaialble from anyone!) so will bang something off over the weekend. Great tyip TT - my thanks!

21 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Hurry up I've got tomatoes ripening in the top drawer at home!

A better option than kangaroos in the top paddock...

[TheBaron]

21 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Vimto?  Aaaaggggh.  If someone comes along with Tizer ("the Appetizer"), then I am 12 once more.

 

You got me along, if a little late (been in bed with a poorly sick).  Catch A Falling Star was epic 60s goodness!

You're welcome aboard Crisp. Hope you're feeling a tad recovered from that dose.

 

For some reason Vimto always reminded me of the liquid plant food my Nan used to put on her tomatoes each year, I couldn't stand the stuff. This however was frequently a magnificent pairing for lunch at school in the late 70s...

 

Currently at lunch at work and eating something just as bad (Polish doughnuts and strong coffee, cop-style...) These I currently have pinned-up over the desk, to the bafflement of passers-by:

The top reminds me where I am, the bottom where I want to be....

 

 

[Miggers]

Quit surprised they use the Buck-19's for this.

 

Make sure the one you want hadn't had it's propellers changed for three blade Hamilton-Standard's Tony.

 

The four blade Aeroproducts fans were notorious for the CSU/pitch change mechanism giving up the ghost.

The prop would almost certainly go into fully fine or fully coarse pitch and unless the F/E realised what was happening

and shut down the engine with the duff prop very quickly ,either condition meant a blown engine with a fire.

 

Only option then was for the pilots to hold it straight whilst the rest of the crew went over the side because the main spar

was very well know for quickly burning through,and then try to get out themselves before the wing collapsed.

 

The retro-fit from Aeroproducts props to Hamilton-Standards(usually 43H60-605's)cured the problem and made the aircraft far more reliable.AFAIK,all USAF aircraft were done.All the civvie ones still going(very few now though)ran three bladers.

 

There used to be a great Flightsim version that had both prop options and replicated the Aeroproducts nasty habits quite well.

 

As for the kit,I built it back when it came out(still have it stored safely up in the loft) and it makes a very impressive replica of the old Dollar-19.

The'pit details up quite nicely and I believe,is largely representative.

The decal sheet is pretty good,but only gives you half of the black wing walk lines that you need.

From memory,the undercart is particularly good,but the mainwheel axles are fragile.I wouldn't worry too much about

swapping the R-3350's,you cant see a lot of 'em.....

Edited March 13, 2017 by Miggers

[hendie]

On 3/8/2017 at 3:49 AM, TheBaron said:

Questions: I liked the look of them Engines & Things offerings as a simpler alternative. Thanks. I'm going to that route but  I can't see any details on postage costs though - do you have to email them  first for  a total and then PayPal them?

 

I used an Engines & Things resin engine on my Lysander build.  I wasn't particularly impressed with the quality, but it was the only game in town.  If you download their brochure,   I think the last page has a paragraph about shipping - it's a one size fits most flat fee... and yes, you have to email them.

In the end I went somewhere else when I found they were selling the Engines & Things parts at a cheaper price.  .... over at Roll Models

Edited March 10, 2017 by hendie
crappy forum software making multiple posts within a post

[TheBaron]

4 hours ago, Miggers said:

Quit surprised they use the Buck-19's for this.

 

Make sure the one you want hadn't had it's propellers changed for three blade Hamilton-Standard's Tony.

 

The four blade Aeroproducts fans were notorious for the CSU/pitch change mechanism giving up the ghost.

The prop would almost certainly go into fully fine or fully coarse pitch and unless the F/E realised what was happening

and shut down the duff engine very quickly ,either condition meant a blown engine with a fire.

 

Only option then was for the pilots to hold it straight whilst the rest of the crew went over the side because the main spar

was very well know for quickly burning through,and then try to get out themselves before the wing collapsed.

 

The retro-fit from Aeroproducts props to Hamilton-Standards(usually 43H60-605's)cured the problem and made the aircraft far more reliable.AFAIK,all USAF aircraft were done.All the civvie ones still going(very few now though)ran three bladers.

 

There used to be a great Flightsim version that had both prop options and replicated the Aeroproducts nasty habits quite well.

 

As for the kit,I built it back when it came out(still have it stored safely up in the loft) and it makes a very impressive replica of the old Dollar-19.

The'pit details up quite nicely and I believe,is largely representative.

The decal sheet is pretty good,but only gives you half of the black wing walk lines that you need.

From memory,the undercart is particularly good,but the mainwheel axles are fragile.I wouldn't worry too much about

swapping the R-3350's,you cant see a lot of 'em.....

Wotcha Miggers! Long time no hear.

 

Thanks for the tips on the kit. I'm going to dig it out for a good fondling over the weekend to get a sense of what's in store, and also to start sketching out jobs for the interior in particular.

 

After reading your post, I've  just had an alarming read in the Aerofax volume about technical failures on this baby, including this chestnut:

You imagine his report was terse and probably consisted of 'I'm [<expletive] off!'

 

On p.36 there's a detailed discussion of 'propellor issues'(as it delicately puts it) but it states that only 22 of the 'G's were retrofitted with three-bladed HS props to create the 'L'. variant. There's a detailed table on P.33 of the same volume and this gives the 'J' variant as having an Aeroproducts f40k-1-198-18MZ prop on a dash 89B variant of the R-3350 engine. Any shots I've seen of the aircraft I'm doing seem to be four-bladed also.

(I had to go look all this up, I can't imagine how you remember it all off pat!)

 

Apparently ditching a Boxcar was considered so lethal to the crews that the flying manual simply said DON'T....

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

[TheBaron]

2 hours ago, hendie said:

 

I used an Engines & Things resin engine on my Lysander build.  I wasn't particularly impressed with the quality, but it was the only game in town.  If you download their brochure,   I think the last page has a paragraph about shipping - it's a one size fits most flat fee... and yes, you have to email them.

In the end I went somewhere else when I found they were selling the Engines & Things parts at a cheaper price.  .... over at Roll Models

Cheers for that hendie! From photos I've seen, the quality from engine to engine seems to vary considerably, but as you say, there's a number of engines they do that no-one else has. I'm just off to chase up that link now. My thanks!

Tony

[Nigel Heath]

I'm in for this one! I'd recommend five minute epoxy to securely fix in all those windows.

[The Spadgent]

" I just happen to have two 20s and two 10s right here in my wallet. I was afraid they were going to be there until next April."

 

I'll be sitting at the bar watching this one unfold if you don't mind. Mayhap the odd beer nut? 

 

Fascinating build choice. I really had no idea about this aeroplane until I saw this post. I'm really looking forward to this one a great deal.

 

Good luck Amigo.

 

Johnny

[stevehnz]

OMG, 4 days & already eleventy plus posts, how will I ever keep up. It's such a great subject too, Ice Station Zebra was a great favourite as a teenager. I'll just have to pop in & out & hope I can catch the action from time to time.  Keen to check out the vi

ds but that'll have to wait till I can get home & onto a real grown ups 'puter.

Steve

[AdrianMF]

I haven't checked in yet. Great videos. Looking forward to, you know, erm, sticking stuff together!

 

Regards,

Adrian

[TheBaron]

14 hours ago, Nigel Heath said:

I'm in for this one! I'd recommend five minute epoxy to securely fix in all those windows.

You're welcome along Nigel. And that epoxy sounds to me very much like a plan for those windows.

13 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

" I just happen to have two 20s and two 10s right here in my wallet. I was afraid they were going to be there until next April."

 

I'll be sitting at the bar watching this one unfold if you don't mind. Mayhap the odd beer nut? 

 

Fascinating build choice. I really had no idea about this aeroplane until I saw this post. I'm really looking forward to this one a great deal.

What - ho Spadders! Pull up a seat, stick your cash on the counter and I'll keep 'em coming....

7 hours ago, stevehnz said:

OMG, 4 days & already eleventy plus posts, how will I ever keep up. It's such a great subject too, Ice Station Zebra was a great favourite as a teenager. I'll just have to pop in & out & hope I can catch the action from time to time.  Keen to check out the vi

ds but that'll have to wait till I can get home & onto a real grown ups 'puter.

Nice to have you along Steve. ISZ is likewise a perennial favourite here at Maison Baron. I'd better get round to actually sticking some bits together at some point though, or the punters will get restive....

21 minutes ago, AdrianMF said:

I haven't checked in yet. Great videos. Looking forward to, you know, erm, sticking stuff together!

Didn't I just see you somewhere else?

[TheBaron]

I'd mentioned above about being on p.2 and still nothing stuck, however I've not been idle this last couple of days. Research on this one is proving challenging due to a certain paucity of materials regarding the 'J':

 

It seems to have become an unintended pattern of behaviour since coming onto BM, that I've set myself a couple of relatively major challenges with each successive build, and this one will not be an exception.

 

Looking through the various sets of  tasks required to do this subject justice, I've come to a decision to focus on the following:

• trying for a reasonable metal finish (along with - for the large part - painting the major insignia). Lots of fun to be had with classic 1960s technological optimism - shiny metals in the high air.
• detailing  the interior  with all the required capsule-recovery apparatus will be challenging in the extreme - this'll mean enough scratch building to keep you all happy I hope! (though I may succumb and buy some metal undercarriage legs later if the OOB option proves as potentially weak as Miggers suggests) 

No engine reveal this time around as I want to be finished if at all possible before summer is over...

 

Working out structure and dimensions of the main recovery-apparatus was initially an intractable problem without engineering drawing or manuals. This is my drawing for placement and scale of the main elements:

One invaluable source which I relied upon in preparing the above is the 'Star Catcher' oral history of these missions, published by the NRO:

http://www.nro.gov/history/csnr/corona/StarCatchersWeb.pdf

 

Although it contains a wealth of images I've never seen previously reproduced of the interior equipment and structures, these would in themselves not be informative enough without the testimony of SSgt Charles J. Dorigan in Chapter 5 of this publication, where from p.130 he describes in detail the function and arrangement of the gear in many of the photographs. I recommend that section highly if you're interested in how to collect a capsule from space in mid-air! (He doesn't give the dimensions of the Benson tanks however, only their 500 gallon volumes, so I averaged-out a series of 500 gal. tank measurements to produce a representative set of dimensions...) Some of the specific functions that may be of interest I'll describe in due course as I'm building these parts.

 

(You'll have guessed that I'm currently full of a wild enthusiasm for the idea of collecting things in mid-air...)

 

Drawing and model:

Forward details:

Current kit reality:

Much to be done here. Not overly enamoured of the interior framework, though to be fair this is from '85 and pretty good. I'm not sure it's a viable solution to grind this amount of moulding out and redo all that from scratch. (Yes I know you think I should...there's no point asking such a demanding audience, especially as I know Martian will swing along at any moment with 'views upon the matter')

 

Likewise with the rear:

OOB:

Ah No. The longer I look at this close-up from Mike Costello's superbly evocative walkaround on the forum:

 There's no comparison is there? The longer I look, the weaker my resolve is becoming....

 

Exterior wise the panel lines on the kit are raised, if subtly so, even seen in an oblique light:

Looking at another of Mike's excellent shots, strategic sanding to leave some areas raised and some not may work to represent the textures and detail you can see here on the actual aircraft skin, where I'm not observing much in the way of recessed detail that would call for re-scribing at all:

We'll come back to that approach later on.

 

I'll finish with a picture just to prove that spring is apparently trying to hang around now:

 

 

I'm happy enough that I've roughed-out the brute dimensions of that interior now, but still need to work up overhead views of the fuselage floor and ceiling next, plus the structure of the beaver-tail: this structure seems to have two dimensions of movement, the overall frame-structure tilting up to allow the poles out, as well as the curved door itself opening inwards in flight. That will all have to be a big job entirely done from scratch later.

 

One thing I am intending at this stage is having watched Simmerit's gargantuan work on his Chinook interior, is to build the floor structure as something that can slide in to cover the bottom seam of the fuselage join. I don't see a more direct or practical route, though as to the roof, I'll need to have a look at what's actually up there in greater detail to work out how to proceed in relation to that.

 

Toodle-oo for now mes braves.  I know there's a bit of a wait for any hot glue action on this one but I reckon that careful planning at this stage is called for to avoid mistakes later.

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TonyTiger66]

Really admirable research here Tony  .

 

That's a great plan you've made of the interior mechanism. 

 

You're a braver man than I tacking all that,  what looks to be a very intricate pattern for the inner walls and making a whole new beaver tail !

 

Its going to ba interesting for sure .

 

That looks like a very nice spot to have a cuppa by the way .

 

All the best

TonyT

 

[Tomoshenko]

58 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

I'd mentioned above about being on p.2 and still nothing stuck, however I've not been idle this last couple of days. Research on this one is proving challenging due to a certain paucity of materials regarding the 'J':

 

 

Current kit reality:

 

 

Ah No. The longer I look at this close-up from Mike Costello's superbly evocative walkaround on the forum:

 There's no comparison is there? The longer I look, the weaker my resolve is becoming....

 

 

 

I'll finish with a picture just to prove that spring is apparently trying to hang around now:

 

 

 

Toodle-oo for now mes braves.  I know there's a bit of a wait for any hot glue action on this one but I reckon that careful planning at this stage is called for to avoid mistakes later.

 

 

Right then, forgive the edited quote, but I need to address three points while keeping an eye on a spicy pork and bean casserole, slow cooked for when I return from the pub.

 

1. "I'd mentioned above about being on p.2 and still nothing stuck, however I've not been idle this last couple of days. Research on this one is proving challenging due to a certain paucity of materials regarding the 'J':"

Given that my builds are comparable in speed to the Voyager's space probe slow crawl across the cosmos, reaching the inner sanctums of the Milky Way in somewhat 30,000 years +, no issue with me.

 

2. "There's no comparison is there? The longer I look, the weaker my resolve is becoming....".

Wash you mouth out with carbolic soap, and follow up with hefty glugs of extremely strong alcohol of your choice to ensure sterility. We'll have none of this talk Sir. Man up and get detailing (said in a muted respectful tone ).

 

3. "I'll finish with a picture just to prove that spring is apparently trying to hang around now:"

Redolent of the Dutch School for still life. Wonderful lighting and composition. Just need a glass of wine and a bunch of grapes.

[hendie]

why does that last photo conjure up images of Edgar Allan Poe ?

[Spookytooth]

Do you mind if I tag along for this build dear sir?

I`ve got the Stinger K version in the stash.

And you are right, not a lot of info for this bird.

 

 

Simon.

[Cookenbacher]

Whoa, I was beginning to fret when looking at the results of your detailed research when compared to what the kit offers, but then remembered the detail work on your Barracuda and quit worrying. Just going to sit back and enjoy this one Tony.

 

3 hours ago, TheBaron said:

• trying for a reasonable metal finish (along with - for the large part - painting the major insignia). Lots of fun to be had with classic 1960s technological optimism - shiny metals in the high air.

 

I'm a huge fan of metal finishes and masking and painting markings. One thing I'd humbly suggest that you consider is to use decals for the insignias, as transfers love a smooth surface and you'll never find one smoother than a nice metal finish. Depending on your method, metal finishes can be very delicate and masking markings could end up becoming a retouching headache (Alclad and AK Xtreme metal are quite fragile, while I've found Uschi pigments and  brushed on Model Master metalizers to be very robust, but may be quite a chore to apply to such a large model).

[TheBaron]

4 hours ago, Tomoshenko said:

We'll have none of this talk Sir. Man up and get detailing (said in a muted respectful tone ).

 Me after that talking-to Tomo:

 

Hope that casserole turned out Ok!

 

2 hours ago, hendie said:

why does that last photo conjure up images of Edgar Allan Poe ?

An uncanny gloom descends upon the thread...

 

1 hour ago, Spookytooth said:

Do you mind if I tag along for this build dear sir?

I`ve got the Stinger K version in the stash.

And you are right, not a lot of info for this bird.

Pull up a seat Simon - you're very welcome. Coincidentally enough I came across this not long after the last post, a resource put together by Ruud Leeuw with some interesting oral histories and technical background, I don't know if you've seen it?

http://www.ruudleeuw.com/c119-info.htm

1 hour ago, Cookenbacher said:

Whoa, I was beginning to fret when looking at the results of your detailed research when compared to what the kit offers, but then remembered the detail work on your Barracuda and quit worrying. Just going to sit back and enjoy this one Tony.

 

 

I'm a huge fan of metal finishes and masking and painting markings. One thing I'd humbly suggest that you consider is to use decals for the insignias, as transfers love a smooth surface and you'll never find one smoother than a nice metal finish. Depending on your method, metal finishes can be very delicate and masking markings could end up becoming a retouching headache (Alclad and AK Xtreme metal are quite fragile, while I've found Uschi pigments and  brushed on Model Master metalizers to be very robust, but may be quite a chore to apply to such a large model).

That's an invaluable point about the decal/paint issue for insignia.  I'm an utter novice whenit comes to metalworking of this kind: 'Cookie I'm a Rookie'. Most grateful for those tips. I guess in the same vein it would be sensible to do all the non-metallic paintwork first, so that can be masked for subsequent application of the metal stuff? I've only Alumunium and Steel from Alclad (which I've used and like) in the paint stash so far so pondering what other Alclads to obtain for the kind of variety you see across the airframe.

 

One last image tonight:

An overhead plan view of the C-119 'J' floor, from the forward cargo bulkhead back to the rear opening that the beaver-tails hinges up from. A great deal to add and all needing building from the ground up. I'd like to post some reference shots so you can see for yourselves the internal working, however the only decent ones are in the Star Catcher volume and I don't think it wise to break copyright and have the NRO on your case.... When I'm building the various bits and bobs I'll try and explain what you see in the drawing as we move along.

Tony

 

[TheBaron]

Really admirable research here Tony  .

 

That's a great plan you've made of the interior mechanism. 

 

You're a braver man than I tacking all that,  what looks to be a very intricate pattern for the inner walls and making a whole new beaver tail !

 

Its going to ba interesting for sure .

 

That looks like a very nice spot to have a cuppa by the way .

Evening Tony and thanks for that! 

 

 

Between tea and cofee it's been Caffeine Sunday at Baron Acres; between that and spending the day poring over C-119 photos I've managed to get both a squint and a headache, natch it's not gin for me this evening but an old-codger-esque mug of warm milk and nutmeg and a settle down with a book.

 

BTW, bravery doesn't come into these undertakings, it's simply a mixture of rushing in where angels (or indeed wiser modellers) fear to tread, allied to a mule-like stubbornness at not being beaten by the odds...

[71chally]

23 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

" I just happen to have two 20s and two 10s right here in my wallet. I was afraid they were going to be there until next April."

So here's what, you slip me a bottle of bourbon, a little glass and some ice, you can do that can't you Lloyd?

 

Looking forward to this build, there is something about the C-119.  Had a chance to look over the one that was stored at North Weald for a while, did I have a camera with me...

I'm with you on the panel lines, the raised ones seem to suit the type, I think I rubbed them down a bit.  I can't remember if this kit represents the walkways in raised lines (may have been a B-36 I was doing at the same time), might be something to look out for.

The only thing that kinda looked iffy to my eyes was the round engine openings, they didn't seem quite big, or open, enough to me - again could've been me!

 

I found some online engine references the other day, which apart from having drawings of the opening cowls in detail, also showed the undercarriage.

Will try and seek it out.

 

[TheBaron]

Quote

So here's what, you slip me a bottle of bourbon, a little glass and some ice, you can do that can't you Lloyd?

 

Yoiks. First Poe, now The Shining in a single thread. This is rapidly becoming Boxcar-Gothique....

 

You're right James, this is another of those aircraft with a certain 'something'. I must confess I'm starting to wonder if I don't have more of an eye for the quixotic or even frankly ungainly when it comes to aerial machines. It's doubtless heretical to many on here but I just don't get as excited by the idea of building a Spit or an F-16 (don't for heaven's sake tell anyone I said that - this is just our secret...).

 

That walkaround on the forum was a godsend as I wasn't salivating over the thought of mass re-scribing, so selective rub-down looks the way to go on the panels - I'll have a look during the week to see about those walkway lines and the engine opening diameters on the kit.

 

Was that the big Monogram B-36 you did? Deep envy. Now that is something that I covet but just can't justify the current cost of acquisition. Again I'm drawn to that aircraft, despite it being designed to look like a Northrop Flying Wing surprised from behind by a B-29...

 

 

 

[Spookytooth]

Thanks for that link sir, I will save it off.

 

Simon.

[Brandy]

If you really want quixotic and ungainly I could give you a few suggestions, but I really don't think you want to go there...how are your rigging skills?

 

 Having said that, I'm looking forward to seeing what you can do with the internals of this beast....definitely should be interesting!
 

Ian

[keefr22]

That's some very thorough planning there Tony! And I do wish I hadn't started rescribing my kit now - I might actually have built the thing...

 

I would have absolutely no idea of how to go about it, but have you thought about the possibility of getting some custom photo etch done for all that interior framework?

 

Keith