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Great stuff Tony - epoxy and windows, I share your distaste. Nice job :) 

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Good post's, moody photography, i like it, oh yeh modelling isn't a miss either

Glynn 

By the way is this the alclad job you referred to on my firebar thread,?

Edited by Hewy
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The internal look very nice and very smooth Tony nice work. I would agree with you, far right strip looks best.

 

Rob

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The frames, 0.5 works for me too.

Of course, the frames would be a U shape

with an elongated base and one upright supporting

the outer skin with rivets.

So does the opening of the U face forwards or aft?

Then there are the longerons and stringers too....

Ah, that's too technical, I'd just do simple uprights myself.

 

Get well soon to your nipper.

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4 hours ago, Spookytooth said:

I would go with the 0.5 mm for the ribs Tony.

A little tip I picked up from the wheelie builders, is to outline the windows with a fine permanent marker once she has been painted.

It gives a bit of depth to the window and also gives the impression of seals  too.

Thanks for that vote Simon. :thumbsup2: And also for the seal hint too - I'm adding that to the build inventory of tasks.

1 hour ago, 71chally said:

Tony, don't forget that theoretically the frames should be in line with the external panel lines, will that help?

The frames aren't equidistant going from the photos.

James, I may be making a schoolboy error in my interpretation of references here, so please don't hesitate to correct the following...:D

 

The panel lines on the exterior of the kit only equate to some of the interior ribs I feel. If we look at the two forward portholes in this region of the aircraft:

13607.jpg

(Photo: Mike Costello)

The kit panel lines for the same region are in different places, particularly by the second window in from the right:

33354044202_6153df01ff_c.jpg

I'm almost inclined to the belief that the second porthole is too far back, if we look at it from the inside? In the shot below, you can additionally see a second, shallower set of seams onto which the deeper ribs I'm building are superimposed, possibly this explains the apparent disparity with the outer panel lines?

13661.jpg

You can see the regularity of the forward ribbing better here:

2052664020_d35a324921.jpg

(Photo:DannyMcL http://www.flickriver.com/photos/dmcl/sets/72157603256773503/)

The rear interior does suggest - as you rightly say - the need for more variation of rib intervals that do seem to match the rear panel lines on the kit more closely:

DSC_0126-1.jpg

(Photo: Air Mobility Command Museum https://amcmuseum.org)

Without completely face-on photographs of these regions from the inside though, there is an inevitable 'best-guess' tone to some of these observations....

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1 hour ago, CedB said:

Great stuff Tony - epoxy and windows, I share your distaste. Nice job :) 

Thanks for the moral support Ced. I'm most glad that job is done. :thumbsup2:

1 hour ago, Hewy said:

Good post's, moody photography, i like it, oh yeh modelling isn't a miss either

Glynn 

By the way is this the alclad job you referred to on my firebar thread,?

Cheers Glynn, glad you're enjoying it. Yes, this is going be my Alclad apprenticeship. Glad I've had a chance to watch you in action to pick up some tips....:D

56 minutes ago, rob85 said:

The internal look very nice and very smooth Tony nice work. I would agree with you, far right strip looks best.

Thanks Rob. Looks like the right one will be errr alright....B)

51 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

The frames, 0.5 works for me too.

Of course, the frames would be a U shape

with an elongated base and one upright supporting

the outer skin with rivets.

So does the opening of the U face forwards or aft?

Then there are the longerons and stringers too....

Ah, that's too technical, I'd just do simple uprights myself.

 

Get well soon to your nipper.

Most decent of you Pete. :thumbsup2: He's knackered now and running a fever so hopefully a night's sleep will burnt it through his system.

 

I suspect you've just explained with  elegance and economy what I was windily wittering on to James about in the above post sir! :D Those apparent discrepancies between between inner and outer lines are doubtless easily explained by a knowledge of airframe structures - which are singularly lacking in my case! As you suggest: simple uprights it will be on this job, rather than all those long-johns and string you mention. Rum stuff to build an aircraft from....

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I was just looking at the internal picture you posted above.

The one with the 'watch your step' poster.

There are a few different types of rib there. The wider ones seem

to be two 'U' shapes back to back while others are just the 'U'.

There are also secondary ribs running below and above the windows

to spread the load of the hole in the skin.

The holes in the ribs are 'lightning holes' and are flanged which adds strength.

The Longerons are the thick horizontal strips attached to the ribs with the

'diamond' shaped pieces while the stringers are the thin horizontal strips.

 

The panel lines that modellers fuss about are supposed to represent the

edges of the sections of skin riveted to the above structure. Your external

picture shows a right quilted effect. Now sometimes skins are overlapped

like the scales of a fish and sometimes they butt up against each other,

it would depend on the strength required at that point and of course the internal

structure would be sized accordingly at that point (Like two ribs together for instance).

The rivet lines seen in the external view reflect the internal structure, horizontal and vertical.

I hope that helps?

 

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30 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

 I hope that helps?

Do you know I believe I understood all of that Pete! :D I greatly appreciate you taking the time to explain that - I can now look at those photos with an informed eye and understand the why of the structure.... :thumbsup2:

 

I was fixating on the main ribs and longerons (because they're the bits I'm building) but not properly understanding their context within the overall structural matrix.

 

 

 

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There's posh isn't it

 

overall structural matrix indeed

 

:)

 

 

 

But seriously, this tendency to share arcane knowledge is one of the things that makes BM so important

 

Fritag tells us the total impossibility of getting Adour powered aircraft aloft

 

Crisp explains why the impossible occurs in making helichoppers stay aloft

 

And Pete explains why the structures are formed to make blimmin panel lines

 

 

And seriously it is all pretty damned marvellous

Edited by perdu

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All this explanation of the internal structure almost makes me want to have an overlapping photo montage of each side wall to allow me to reproduce this myself.

It certainly is interesting to see how the structure changes between different parts of the airframe depending on the load imposed on imposed. C, or indeed U section frames changing into box section frames and probably back to C section frames with the odd L section or even an S section is fascinating and I look forward to how this progresses and its execution to mimic the pictures shown so far of the interior.

 

This brings up the question, are the frames of the rear section above towards the clam shell doors depicted above the same as for the version being modelled?

 

Gondor

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You are very welcome. There was nothing on the telly anyway.

It's all in my head somewhere, accessing it can be the problem!

 

BTW, Rib and fame are different words for the same thing.

On aircraft drawings they can be known as stations, and are

numbered in inches or Centimeters from the nose.

(Usually ignoring the pitot probe, IIRC)

 

Oh yes, there are top hat sections too. Guess what shape they are.

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Quote

context within the overall structural matrix.

Wow, it will be the consensus of iconography next!

 

I get that there isn't an external panel line per frame, far from it, but they do tend to end on or close to a frame, especially butting skin joins. It gets more involved I know, when you have plank lapping, and added stiffener skins etc.

So, the external panel lines of the kit (assuming they are correct, or the modeller is happy with them) can be quite a good guide for some of the internal major frames and their spacing.

 

Must admit I've only known it as ribs as the chord wise structures in wings, frames or formers being the vertical structures in fuselage / nacelles etc.

Both ribs and frames are known as stations for the point of references for measurements and locations with an aircraft structure

Longerons run longitudinally in a fuselage, and spanwise on a wing, the stringers essentially being secondary supporting longerons.

 

Tony, I was looking at your first shots, where the frames seem to very a little, could have been my eyes, will look again.

One thing for sure is that you have picked a fine old project to doing this sort of work with, even the external detail is something to behold!

Edited by 71chally

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This is a huge education.

 

You touched upon something else Tony. US interior green.

 

It's another one of these: 

 

:worms: 

 

I hardly dare male a comment about it.

 

I'm not sure where it ranks in comparison with discussion of RLM 02, RAAF Foliage Green or US WWII Olive Drab, but I feel it may be up there in the 'chomping peanut brittle and gently rocking back and forth whilst reading the debate' stakes.

 

Discussion of it has been known to drive people to drink, dreadful addiction, involuntary facial twitching and Crown Green Bowling :confused:.

 

There are lots of nice pictures here of the green inside one of these Aircraft. I'm not suggesting all C-119s would have the same colour US interior green. Maybe they should have :shrug: ?

 

Nevertheless, perhaps just stick to a reliable colour photograph and base your colour on that?

 

I have paints by Gunze, Testors, all sorts that claim to be US interior green. Maybe they are. Maybe they aren't. They're all different.

 

You can see how I would like to avoid the village stocks and thrown fruit on the issue.

 

But just a little reply to your question :thumbsup2:  :door: 

 

All the best

TonyT

 

PS: hope the lad's  fever abates.

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Your chugging along quite nicely there Tony. The bird is looking good, with those plans in place and your dedication it's going to be a corker. Big innit.:blink:

Hope the boy gets better soon.

0.5 for me on the ribbing. 

Take care.

 

jont.:giles:

 

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13 hours ago, perdu said:

There's posh isn't it

 

overall structural matrix indeed

 

:)

:lol: Pretentious? Moi?

The-Psychiatrist-Chatting-up-Mr-Johnson.

13 hours ago, perdu said:

But seriously, this tendency to share arcane knowledge is one of the things that makes BM so important

 

Fritag tells us the total impossibility of getting Adour powered aircraft aloft

 

Crisp explains why the impossible occurs in making helichoppers stay aloft

 

And Pete explains why the structures are formed to make blimmin panel lines

 

 

And seriously it is all pretty damned marvellous

:thumbsup:

...and then there's me, skating on thin ice whilst opening cans of worms and whistling in the dark whilst throwing caution to the wind....My wife says I should probably apologize to all of you at some stage for the awful puns as well...

13 hours ago, Gondor44 said:

All this explanation of the internal structure almost makes me want to have an overlapping photo montage of each side wall to allow me to reproduce this myself.

A frustration I've shared Gondor.:nodding: See photos below.

13 hours ago, Gondor44 said:

This brings up the question, are the frames of the rear section above towards the clam shell doors depicted above the same as for the version being modelled?

From what I can see in references the main framing up to the join with the doors seems to have been consistent across variants. Past that last fame you can see the different internals on the 'J' door, plus the fact it hinges in two places for inflight operation.

33484598486_6a1d8a79d5_b.jpg

There are of course various bits and bobs in and around this region that vary according to the mission requirements. On the 'J' variant , no two aircraft from the capsule recovery ones seem to have exactly the same ceiling details though.

5 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

You are very welcome. There was nothing on the telly anyway.

It's all in my head somewhere, accessing it can be the problem!

 

BTW, Rib and fame are different words for the same thing.

On aircraft drawings they can be known as stations, and are

numbered in inches or Centimeters from the nose.

(Usually ignoring the pitot probe, IIRC)

Rib/frame/station. Got it Pete. Thanks.:book::cheers:

5 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

Oh yes, there are top hat sections too. Guess what shape they are.

You should know better than to taunt someone with my twisted sense of humour Pete. I have manfully resisted what I was going to say about Piers Morgan....

3 hours ago, 71chally said:

Wow, it will be the consensus of iconography next!

:rofl: It nearly was....!:P

3 hours ago, 71chally said:

I get that there isn't an external panel line per frame, far from it, but they do tend to end on or close to a frame, especially butting skin joins. It gets more involved I know, when you have plank lapping, and added stiffener skins etc.

You've hit the nail on the head James, with characteristic precision. :thumbsup2:

 

Where my inexperience and lack of knowledge showed (in relation to the actual aircraft) was having tunnel vision and simply assuming a direct 1:1 correspondence between everything you see on the outer skin, and the basic rib/longeron internal framework that I intend building. This latter (and more simple - if we can call it that!) structure of course on it's own doesn't explain everything on the outside. I realize that now, as both yourself and Pete have so comprehensively explained the role and function of those other internal details which do add up to a direct match between in and out.

 

Not easy this, it it? :fraidnot:

2 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

You touched upon something else Tony. US interior green.

 

It's another one of these: 

:rolleyes: I suspect that this will still be rousing passions just prior to the heat death of the universe Tony. As with RAF interiors, it still surprises me how much debate can ensure around even relatively recent historical data. Mercifully I managed to get the latest version of iModelKit working on my thoroughly u/s iPad, so I'll wash a few photos through that and see what Tamiya mixtures it throws up. I presume the majority of those official contemporary 50s/60s colour stills were shot on Ektachrome/Kodachrome by USAF photographers, with the attendant  cooler/warmer colour biases that will put calibration off. There are some recent interior digital shots on the USAF Museum site though, so these may prove more reliable (providing it's not had a heavy makeover inside with modern paint....). 

2 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

 

But just a little reply to your question

And a pleasure to read the fruits of your experience as always TT. My thanks.

1 hour ago, The Spadgent said:

Your chugging along quite nicely there Tony. The bird is looking good, with those plans in place and your dedication it's going to be a corker. Big innit.:blink:

Hope the boy gets better soon.

0.5 for me on the ribbing. 

Cheers for that John. He seems to have burnt through the fever last night and is now in the 'grumpy-recovery' mode.:rolleyes: I say 'lad' - the blighter towers over me now and has broader shoulders.....

 

The consensus seems to be the 0.5mm on those ribs/stations, so I'll go with that methinks. :thumbsup2:

 

Now. Sunday morning. Having gotten thoroughly frustrated last night (the frustration probably came through in my posts - apologies for any 'testiness' of tone...) with my inability to clearly understand the basic spatial/structural problem of the aircraft interior, partly this is (as Gondor alluded to above) a function of the lack of any comprehensive photographic sources that yield a plan view of an entire side. Having spent several days looking at shots taken looking up and down the length of the aircraft, the convergence of perspective makes this an extremely challenging hurdle. What to do? 

 

Well, again I chastized myself for developing tunnel vision (no pun intended...much...:winkgrin:). No adequate still photos around, but what about moving ones? TBH I often find video (along with drawing to understand) more helpful in working out spatial and structural problems anyway, so over to Youtube and an hour of taking screenshots:

33484517476_1893f2108f_z.jpg

The most useful was a film from the Hagerstown C-119 restoration project:

This contained an interior pan that I was able to extract frames from and build a 4-frame composite in Photoshop to provide a single near 180 shot of the interior:

33527057105_60195a51ea_h.jpg

The misalignement at the respective frame edges is a function of the original lens distortion. I did these by hand in Photoshop rather than use the 'Photomerge' function as I didn't want the algorithm automatically altering any details to get a better fit. Thankfully the original videographer remained standing in the same spot for the pan so there aren't any huge mismatches. Although giving a more comprehensive view, it's still a tunnel, rather than a plan view. At the price of lost resolution toward the forward bulkhead, here's a de-perspectivized version of the same image:

32683049574_5a260bf528_b.jpg

Not quite a plan view, but probably best you'll get from pulling this out of a low-res Youtube video. Allowing for the necessary spatial license involved in such a deconvolution, this at least lets us have a reasonable stab at a station-and-spacing count:

32683059184_e5fba47458_b.jpg

That took up quite a lot of time this morning, but I wasn't about to plunge into any further building work on the insides until I had a better understanding of this problem. Next, I want to break those divisions down into a plan drawing that fits the 155 mm length of the kit from the forward cargo bulkhead to the back end of the fuselage.

Gah! I'm off to stick Nicorette patches all over my face and drink a yard of coffee after that...:blink2:

 

 

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On 3/15/2017 at 7:59 AM, TheBaron said:

 

 

 

Just before I go: I had a brief hypnagogic 'moment' last night in which I had a picture of one of those fish-eye peep-holes (the kind you have in a front door) mounted in place of one of the windows in the fuselage, situated so that you could see around the insides of the aircraft. The window opening is only about 3mm across though and seems too small for any I've seen for sale. Besides, it'd only stick out from the fuselage and not be a realistic part of the aircraft. Daft idea.

 

 

Or, you might consider this as a way to present the view: 

https://www.amazon.com/BlueFire-Android-Endoscope-Phones-Function/dp/B013HZCYXK

Edited by SmashedGlass
oops

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Just in awe that you are going down this route, I was happy with what Italeri gave me, and that was with the doors open!

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2 hours ago, TheBaron said:

 

 

This contained an interior pan that I was able to extract frames from and build a 4-frame composite in Photoshop to provide a single near 180 shot of the interior:

33527057105_60195a51ea_h.jpg

The misalignement at the respective frame edges is a function of the original lens distortion. I did these by hand in Photoshop rather than use the 'Photomerge' function as I didn't want the algorithm automatically altering any details to get a better fit. Thankfully the original videographer remained standing in the same spot for the pan so there aren't any huge mismatches.

 

 

 

Now that looks the business.

 

Several different sections of ribs and stiffeners depending on location. It looks to me that the larger vertical plates with the holes in them are either side of the wing box which should help with location of what goes where.

 

But you have probably worked that out for yourself by now

 

Gondor

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4 minutes ago, 71chally said:

There's no I would consider sticking that up my...., ah it goes the other way around!

Haha, that's not where it's supposed to go! We use them in the mechanic field in order to see into tight spots, for example into cylinders through the hole for the sparkplug.

Edited by SmashedGlass
another oops

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2 hours ago, Martian Hale said:

The 0.5mm strip looks best to me.

The full-Brazilian it is then!

2 hours ago, SmashedGlass said:

Or, you might consider this as a way to present the view: 

https://www.amazon.com/BlueFire-Android-Endoscope-Phones-Function/dp/B013HZCYXK

That is very, very tempting. Very.:thumbsup2:

27 minutes ago, 71chally said:

Just in awe that you are going down this route, I was happy with what Italeri gave me, and that was with the doors open!

It's not Italeri, it's me...:rolleyes: Weirdly heard myself saying that in Jennifer Aniston's voice...

21 minutes ago, Gondor44 said:

Now that looks the business.

 

Several different sections of ribs and stiffeners depending on location. It looks to me that the larger vertical plates with the holes in them are either side of the wing box which should help with location of what goes where.

 

But you have probably worked that out for yourself by now

Almost...at least as close as I'm likely to get Gondor...

 

I scaled the station graphic you saw earlier and just extracted the interval information for a hardcopy. Here they are now applied as a guide to the respective sides (port being a mirror of the starboard original):

33146492230_79d8db3720_c.jpg

Allowing for the inaccuracies in my image-processing a Y-tube video and I reckon that's about as good as you can get precision-wise with such sources.

33373109462_c6fece58f8_c.jpg

As you can see here on the starboard side, there's a few freehand adjustments of a mm necessary to avoid some of those stations coinciding with windows, otherwise the match between data extracted from video frames and the kit itself aren't too bad. Port-side shares the same issues, plus the obvious difference of a front door:

33146494220_985667a644_c.jpg

That'll do to start building from.

 

Enough mind-frack for the day now. Have a good evening all of youse!

:bye: Tony

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, SmashedGlass said:

Haha, that's not where it's supposed to go! We use them in the mechanic field in order to see into tight spots, for example into cylinders through the hole for the sparkplug.

Ah, were borescopes tread dangerously into the world of endoscopes!

Had to use them a couple times in an emergency, including on a Pembroke cylinder head!

4 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

there's a few freehand adjustments of a mm necessary to avoid some of those stations coinciding with windows,

Can't you just move the windows a bit?!

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To be honest Tony, moving the ribs a few mm here or there isn`t go to show up that much.

Unless you get some anal retentive person with an endoscope and measuring device...

 

Nice work so far though, more to it than just sticking bits of plastic together

 

Simon.

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Impressive work Tony. From YouTube video to 180 pan, to measurements to templates, in one morning :o!

 

Now it's time to build your own internal three dimensional Matrix.....

 

Remember to follow the path of Neo.

 

This will then be the interior of your C119:

 

IMG_5257.jpg

 

:christmas:

T

 

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