Catching Pictures in the Air

[71chally]

14 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

I need to check is that inequality a feature on the actual aircraft or just on the kit. From the angle in this screengrab I think it's only the kit:

...it's on the actual aircraft, I'm stuck in work so can't do one of my paint.net images at mo - but I say again Frise!

I don't think it is stepped too much on the 119 though.

[AdrianMF]

13 minutes ago, 71chally said:

stuck in work

So am I but I'm a bit bored, so: this one shows how they work. I think the symmetrical approach is more appropriate for rudders and elevators.

 

Regards,

Adrian

[71chally]

I feel your pain Adrian, nothing but PA28s and 737s to look at here today.

That image is perfect for illustrating the point, and agree with the rudder, elevator symmetry.

[Brandy]

45 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

Yes. Let's Bill. 😁

BTW I get your meaning  - I think - about the A chamfer  / B half-round interfacing. That makes sense with an inverted triangular trailing edge of the wing for the ailerons to fit into like that. From Ian's description I only pictured a single angle and couldn't see how that would work.

That's exactly what I meant, just not very clearly explained, sorry!

Chamfer each of the upper and lower edges of the wing opening so they're angled inwards, and add the half-round to the front of the control surface. That should also give the option of mounting the control surfaces with any amount of deflection you wish, with no extra work to fill gaps!

 

That's the plan anyway.....

 

Ian

[TheBaron]

1 hour ago, 71chally said:

but I say again Frise!

I don't think it is stepped too much on the 119 though.

 

1 hour ago, AdrianMF said:

So am I but I'm a bit bored, so: this one shows how they work. I think the symmetrical approach is more appropriate for rudders and elevators.

James. Adrian: I'm still at work, not bored, and yet still found time to slink back here. That info is great you two - thanks! 

Having relooked at my original photo up on Flickr it looks as if I was hasty and that Italeri do indeed had the Frise overlap round the right way as in this shot:

 

1 hour ago, limeypilot said:

That's exactly what I meant, just not very clearly explained, sorry!

Chamfer each of the upper and lower edges of the wing opening so they're angled inwards, and add the half-round to the front of the control surface. That should also give the option of mounting the control surfaces with any amount of deflection you wish, with no extra work to fill gaps!

 

That's the plan anyway.....

Thanks Ian. I'm primarily a 'visual' person anyway and find purely verbal descriptions of visual matters frequently hard to assimilate. Your notion makes perfect sense and seems a perfect candidate for solving this issue.

[The Spadgent]

Sorry to hear of the lurgey dear boy. 🧟‍♂️ Hope it clears up soon.🥨

 

Jont

[TheBaron]

 

3 minutes ago, The Spadgent said:

Sorry to hear of the lurgey dear boy. 🧟‍♂️

That emoji  is frighteningly close to how I feel this evening but your good wishes are a tonic. Thanks Johnny.

 

Right, before I collapse into bed for the evening, now that I understand the Frise arrangement for matter aileronical (courtesy of James & Adrian 🤘), I can set the record straight regarding my earlier erroneous slandering of Italeri - they do have the arrangement of angles correct for the ailerons, as this photo from the underside shows a lot more keenly:

Note to self: carry out no diagnostics from lo-res pictures when dosed up with painkillers....

 

If I follows Ian's scheme of a double-inverted asymmetric chamfer that should work fine for the ailerons, though for the neighbouring flaps we'll have to be a little more exacting regarding the areas of the trailing edge of the wing that house said items:

A double-S! Eeek!!!

 

A quick final shot to show the difference in rear triangular panels between the kit elevator and that of the actual aircraft - the angles are quite wrong and need corrective surgery:

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brandy]

19 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

A double-S! Eeek!!!

 

Surely you have plenty of beer cans/wine bottle foil that can be wrapped around a couple of pieces of dowel/paintbrushes.... (insert other alternatives here) to get a smooth double 'S' (If you don't I can shend you shome! Hic!) That would be my first choice, (sounds) far easier than trying to carve it from plastic, or mould it.

 

I, like you, prefer a visual description. It's also far easier to explain it with pictures!

 

Best of luck kicking the lurgy!

 

Ian

 

[71chally]

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

I can set the record straight regarding my earlier erroneous slandering of Italeri - they do have the arrangement of angles correct for the ailerons, as this photo from the underside shows a lot more keenly:

I would say that Italeri have that about so.

 

Now, you would automatically assume that ailerons are a symmetrical 'teardrop' aerodynamic shape in section, quite often they are not though, I refer again to office furniture,

There are some moments in that aileron removal video that show the section well particularly at 2:12 & 2:20

 

Now the teardrop section of a a rudder (goes for the elevator aswel)

 

Link to the products http://www.motoart.com/

 

 

 

 

Anyhow this is the kind of thing keeping me busy today.  Doesn't seem unusual but see the airport in the distance behind the lifting 737, well that was it's destination.

Lift off to touch down, just four miles away, and 8 minutes flying time.   Seems a long time but by the time checks are done, flaps and gear cycled twice, and then get aligned for the ILS, the pilots will have a few things to do!

Boeing 737 -8K5 G-TAWB TUI by James Thomas, on Flickr

 

 

I digress, get well soon me ole fruit!

Edited April 30, 2018 by 71chally

[Nigel Heath]

Very nice work on sorting out the details with all that detective like investigation. I have been a bit out action of late. I badly cut the back of my hand two weeks ago requiring some surgery to reconnect four severed tendons. I also had to sort out the sale of my house in Aberdeen (which happened today). I also had a jolly nice curry with Duncan B tonight. Hope you get better soon.

[perdu]

Get well soo immediately!

 

OK OK I get it it took me a few hours to get my hunky all proper dory, soon OK

 

I hope you remember to allow for perspective (and even probably coriolis force) when you recut the shape for the cutaway on the elevators

The plastic flat on the picture does not allow for the altered angle of the picture dont forget

 

I think all kids should learn principles of aerodynamics ATC style, every cadet I ever taught learnt about frise flaps and ailerons, mass balances and them fings

 

I hope Giorgio has caught up with what I was trying to point out without the benefit of a drawing package on my tablet-to

I think he will have after the subsequent explanations

 

Tony get well soon bud, I was joking

🤭

[giemme]

8 hours ago, perdu said:

I hope Giorgio has caught up with what I was trying to point out without the benefit of a drawing package on my tablet-to

I have, thank you 👍 I was just looking at your schematic from the wrong angle

 

Ciao

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

13 hours ago, 71chally said:

... see the airport in the distance behind the lifting 737, well that was it's destination.

Lift off to touch down, just four miles away, and 8 minutes flying time.   Seems a long time but by the time checks are done, flaps and gear cycled twice, and then get aligned for the ILS, the pilots will have a few things to do!

Get aligned for the ILS??!?  Are you sh*tting me, Private Pile?  

 

4 miles away is basically inside the visual circuit in an aircraft of that size.  Dammit, they wouldn’t even need to raise the gear.  Are they pilots or computer operators?  For once take the hideous risk of (gasp) not relying on ILS; look out of the window and just fly the bloody aircraft!

[71chally]

He could have departed 07 and landed 12, 3 miles and 2 minutes, no gear to worry about etc, but more to it than that, it was post a maintenance flight that was going straight into service and required some equipment checks.

[TheBaron]

16 hours ago, limeypilot said:

 

Surely you have plenty of beer cans/wine bottle foil that can be wrapped around a couple of pieces of dowel/paintbrushes.... (insert other alternatives here) to get a smooth double 'S' 

You're right Ian - the metal route does seem to offer the choicest route to sinuous curve heaven; plus it's been a while since I did anything with metal and am feeling the withdrawal symptoms. I've some thin brass sheet that might let me solder those actuators that emerge from the 'S' bend parts for added strength.

 

14 hours ago, 71chally said:

I refer again to office furniture,

You've been doing that a lot lately James; beginning to suspect that you are an interior designer at heart in fact... 😉

 

Those lustful images are brilliant BTW!

 

Here 's a couple of closeups from the MM showing its rendering of aileron shapes for inboard and outboard respectively to illustrate your point:

 

14 hours ago, 71chally said:

Lift off to touch down, just four miles away, and 8 minutes flying time. 

Passengers presumably drugged and  told on waking up later that they'd been away for two weeks. It's the livery that gives it away of course : T ravel U nder I influence....

 

Grateful for your sage advice on matters technical as always James.

12 hours ago, Nigel Heath said:

Very nice work on sorting out the details with all that detective like investigation. 

I'm a convert to the idea Nigel that modelling is somehow entwined with the British tradition of murder-mystery novels. I must start wearing pomade or a smoking jacket at the bench....

12 hours ago, Nigel Heath said:

I badly cut the back of my hand two weeks ago requiring some surgery to reconnect four severed tendons. I also had to sort out the sale of my house in Aberdeen (which happened today). 

Oof!! Sorry to hear of the mangled claw old fruit - sincere wishes for swift healing of said extremity. Good to hear that the sale of your Scottish castle got sorted as well - mercifully I've only been involved in such an undertaking once in life, and hope to do it only once more when Mrs.B and myself retire to a converted MTB in a remote estuary somewhere...

12 hours ago, Nigel Heath said:

I also had a jolly nice curry with Duncan B

Please disclose whether this involved chutney; your report is woefully incomplete. 🥘

10 hours ago, perdu said:

I hope you remember to allow for perspective

Possibly the reason my life has followed such an erratic gadfly path has been neglect of such a vital matter Bill.. 

10 hours ago, perdu said:

shape for the cutaway on the elevators

Fear nought old top - your correspondent has not been indolent in the matter of references:

The Good Lord himself only knows how I'm going to attach all those numbered balloons though: my knowledge of aeronautics is admittedly rudimentary but I thought it was the moon's gravity that pulled aircraft upwards, not those bally things.

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

look out of the window and just fly the bloody aircraft!

It gives me no pleasure to have to inform the  Health & Safety police about this regrettable outburst Crisp. 

48 minutes ago, 71chally said:

it was post a maintenance flight

Can't help musing on how RATO might have cut down that unnecessary flight-time for them....

 

Thanks for your good wishes chaps - I hope your varied days produce a glowing sense of satisfaction and accomplishment come even song.

 

 

 

[CedB]

24 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

... when Mrs.B and myself retire to a converted MTB in a remote estuary somewhere...

An MTB? Nice.

I remember, with fondness, watching the 'Round Britain Powerboat Race' from Portland Bill in my Yoof. It was great to see the boats leaping up and down as they sped noisily around the Bill. Even better though was to see Brave Borderer (which was doing safety duties) overtake them all, majestically, with a rating leaning over the front rail having a ciggie. 46 knots continuous? Bet they don't do many miles to the gallon (or should that be the other way around?)

 

Sadly I couldn't find any for sale for you, even on ex-mod.com, but there are some Tornados going if you fancy a weekend runabout...

[keefr22]

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

It gives me no pleasure to have to inform the  Health & Safety police about this regrettable outburst Crisp. 

 

I was going to postulate (steady) as to whether the dreaded H&S 'everything by the book' might have some bearing on the matter! 

 

Cracking pic btw James!

 

Have to admit that my eyes glazed over a little in all the recent discussions of aerodynamic appendages - much as they did when we had lectures on the same when weather curtailed flying at that very Royal Air Force aerodrome (as it was then!) that the 737 is departing from. Surely all we needed to know was stick left - turn left, stick right - turn right, stick forward - go down, stick back - go up. Stick back too much - fall out of the sky. Simple this flying stuff, computers, who needs 'em!

 

Keith

 

PS - just wait till you have grandkids Tony, & see what lurgies they share round....!!

[TheBaron]

53 minutes ago, CedB said:

Sadly I couldn't find any for sale for you, even on ex-mod.com, but there are some Tornados going if you fancy a weekend runabout...

You blinking rotter Cedric. I've just been over that site and mentally spent several thousands on:

1. Land Rover

2. Air compressor

3. Chiverton launch

4. Sextant

5. Gas Grill.

Between the wheels and the boat Mrs.B and self are then set up for a nomadic retirement like the Raggle Taggle Gypsies - O.

 

But what on earth were the MOD doing with a Harley?

http://www.ex-mod-vehicles.com/shop/miscellaneous/harley-davidson-heritage-softail-1113650.html

26 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

computers, who needs 'em!

Those tech-billionaires won't obscenely enrich themselves you know.

...Oh wait.

28 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

just wait till you have grandkids Tony, & see what lurgies they share round....!!

There's cheerful boyo.

[Spookytooth]

14 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

just wait till you have grandkids Tony, & see what lurgies they share round....!!

They are great fun Tony, the best bit is that you can hand them back at the end of the day.

Nice research on the flaps etc, it`s becoming more of an epic build as it goes on sir.

 

Simon.

[keefr22]

27 minutes ago, Spookytooth said:

They are great fun Tony, the best bit is that you can hand them back at the end of the day.

 

 

But they leave the lurgies behind !

[CedB]

Apologies Tony, sort of... they do sell good stuff at good prices though eh? Just need to take all the markings off...

 

50 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

But what on earth were the MOD doing with a Harley?

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you

[TheBaron]

3 hours ago, Spookytooth said:

They are great fun Tony, the best bit is that you can hand them back at the end of the day.

Nice research on the flaps etc, it`s becoming more of an epic build as it goes on sir.

 

3 hours ago, keefr22 said:

But they leave the lurgies behind !

Thanks Simon and Keith: barring accidents (both of our lads have had 'that talk') I think we've a few years grace yet before that life-affirming/draining advent. Plenty of time to lay down the Werther's Originals and breath masks...

3 hours ago, CedB said:

Apologies Tony, sort of

You're not sorry at all - are you?

3 hours ago, CedB said:

they do sell good stuff at good prices though eh?

Ha! thought not.

3 hours ago, CedB said:

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you

Oo-eerr. Le tme distract you from that rather alarming thought with a family anecdote. My paternal grandfather - long since playing triangle for the choir celestial - used to regale us after a couple of sherries with a particular Harley-Davidson story from WW2. After a shattering night of air raids with the AA guns down the road on Wimbledon Common blasting away like good-o, there would be a lull of about an hour during which they'd just have fallen off to sleep when the heavens would be sundered again by a despatch rider tearing full-bore on a Harley up Kingston Hill behind the house, waking them all up as he took the night's tally from the guns off to God knows where in the local command structure. I suspect his disapproval was related less to the noise and more to the fact that having a cool bike, said rider was probably getting more regular sex than the local ARP...

 

Just to finish today with some visual confirmification of alterifying that needs to be carried out on the tailfeathers:

You can see how the outward-angle of those side parts is slightly off and that the section itself on either side doesn't extend far enough up toward the leading edge of the elevator.

The same issue is similarly visible in results for the rear of the stabilizer:

It looks as if I need to add a strip of plastic to extend the trailing edge of the stabilizer back by about 1mm or so also.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Martian]

8 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

4 miles away is basically inside the visual circuit in an aircraft of that size.  Dammit, they wouldn’t even need to raise the gear.  Are they pilots or computer operators?  For once take the hideous risk of (gasp) not relying on ILS; look out of the window and just fly the bloody aircraft!

I do wish you would stop beating about the bush Crisp and say what you really mean!

 

Martian 👽

[perdu]

8 hours ago, keefr22 said:

 

Have to admit that my eyes glazed over a little in all the recent discussions of aerodynamic appendages - much as they did when we had lectures on the same when weather curtailed flying at that very Royal Air Force aerodrome (as it was then!) that the 737 is departing from. Surely all we needed to know was stick left - turn left, stick right - turn right, stick forward - go down, stick back - go up. Stick back too much - fall out of the sky. Simple this flying stuff, computers, who needs 'em!

 

Keith

 

PS - just wait till you have grandkids Tony, & see what lurgies they share round....!!

Is there a handy barrel to sit upon?

 

Ah yes here

 

That reminds me of something...

Back in the depths of time, Columbus sailed to ocean blue (no doubt) and the RAF still had Chipmunks on the AEFs I blagged a ride after my cadets had had all they could take without turning green-er

 

 

Up into the clearing sky (it had bucketed it down half the morning) and after doing several aerobatical wobbly things including upside downery and back on yer seatery himself he said "you have her"

 

I was having fun doing the 'pretending it was a Spitsfire and mentally going dakka dakka dakka' and turning round and round

 

Thinking I was OK at this stuff until he said to put her into a tight left turn, we'll head back

Stick over left and away we went with the turn ever tightening-hey this is great when

 

"Are you trying to make us stall then?"

 

"Huh?"

"Stop pulling the stick back into your tummy we are about to drop out of the sky"

 

 

I learned a bit then, maybe lectures were worth it

 

He got out laughing at me, "It's OK chap I was ready to catch her but you really were awful"

 

I really was😲

 

 

[perdu]

Tony are you going to change the tailplane size or just adapt what's there to the situation?

I think I'd be an adaptor

 

Now somebody has opened a micropub a hundred and fifty yards from home, should I take a little walk to see how it looks with punters in, instead of workmen

 

Be rude not to, wouldnt it