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Catching Pictures in the Air


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13 hours ago, Tomoshenko said:

Getting better and better. If you want to pursue the lighting idea (probably want a dimmer switch in the bathroom mind) you should check out Nigel's Banana Build. It's quite a work of art in which he used internal lighting as part of a diorama (around page 40 onwards).

No. I most definitely do not want to pursue the lighting idea after witnessing the travails of a master-craftsman like Nigel. You're right - he has produced a most beautiful rotary-wing chandelier. I could always keep it up me sleeve for that Belvedere...:lol: (Not!)

11 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

lights too you say

I refer the Right Hon. gentleman to my previous answer in Hansard.;)

11 hours ago, Martian Hale said:

That's looking very good Tony.

Thanks Martian. :thumbsup2:

10 hours ago, CedB said:

 

that skeleton bloke seems to have lights on

Yep.

gxuM60O.gif

No lights Ced. :lol:

Seeing the lengths Nigel had to go to I'm going to leave the Blackpool illuminations for a future (and simpler!) build .

 

Good thoughts on plastic instead of brass on those retrieval poles. I 'm going to have a look at annealing the current poles at one end just to see what that offers first.:thumbsup2:
 

9 hours ago, limeypilot said:

Bendy is better than stiff? Now I'm confused....think I'll go for a pint......

Then it'll just droop surely?;)

 

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Not plastic

 

Not plastic 

 

Not pl...

 

Countering my usual mantra that plastic models have to be plastic here, you might want to go for aerial display

 

This will, if so treated have the rods adanglin' medearyoh for fair weather and unless I miss my guess there's to be parryshhooots catched up in the trapper ( the one at the back rather than the "other" one)

 

No way I would rely on plastic rods not giving way to gravity under stress, this is why I've become a convert to metal rods and tubes under certain restraints

 

Go brass young man, you know its the only one...

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Well, I think I understood all that geometry stuff. Maybe.... :blink: :D

 

As to bending those brass rods, annealing should get the job done, but they look thin enough that even gently running them over the edge of the workbench under your thumb or somesuch should do the trick. 

 

Keith

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1 hour ago, perdu said:

This will, if so treated have the rods adanglin' medearyoh 

Does my shell-likes deceive me or are you now channelling Rambling Sid Rumpole Rumperdu from Round the Horne:lol: 

And what's this you've got in your dangle-bag?:

1 hour ago, perdu said:

No way I would rely on plastic rods not giving way to gravity under stress, this is why I've become a convert to metal rods and tubes under certain restraints

 

Go brass young man, you know its the only one...

Since all that cantilever malarkey on the previous Barra I must confess I'm quite anxious to continue my soldering and annealing apprenticeship...our Lord plastic Jesus on the dashboard knows I need the practice.

1 hour ago, perdu said:

you might want to go for aerial display

Ah. Now you get to the nub. It is a most impressive array of danglers those boys went dragging around the Pacific skies wasn't it?

c119_02.jpg

You reckon all that bendiness you see here is inherent in the poles themselves, or would drag/slipstream be adding to the existing curvature?

 

Either way an aerial posture like this would need quite a lot of display space wouldn't it?:hmmm: Over double the height of the aircraft and with a snagged paracheroot in the traces about half the length of the aircraft again....

 

41 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

Well, I think I understood all that geometry stuff. Maybe.... :blink: :D

Jometry? Ain't that that thing to do with ley-lines and showing your bewtocks to the moon on the Cerne Giant during an eclipse? No wait - that was last year's Dorset trip...:photo:

41 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

As to bending those brass rods, annealing should get the job done, but they look thin enough that even gently running them over the edge of the workbench under your thumb or somesuch should do the trick. 

I reckon so.

Howevers.

I'm going to have another look at that brass tubing when I get home from work later to see it it will be strong enough to support all those wires and parachutes and stuff. 

Because.

Posting that picture up there - along with Rambling Sid Rumperdu's shameless egging-on - has tipped me over the edge and I'm going to try and reproduce the above photo, paracheroot an' all (or a 'caught in the wires' version at least). But will the existing tubing be strong enough or do I need to go for rods instead? I'll get back to you one that. (Possibly fill the tube with a core of wire, might help with the bending anyway?:hmmm:)

 

Why.

Oh why.

Oh why.

Do I agree to these things?:doh:

 

I've even just gone over and coughed up for a set of these:

$_57.JPG

No. Not breath mints.

'Very Strong' Neodymium Block Bar Magnets. I have a cunning plan.

 

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Paracheroots?

Fabuloso to barder yours Mon brave

 

I would advise the court milud that a tube is stronger than a rod in any circumstances as it's internal resistance to bending is stronger than a rods due to its inner walls fighting a tendency to get closer because circles resist change

 

That makes ridiculously no sense at all but I do mean well. Honest

 

 

But if you are planning to bend it a little go the whole hog and use steel rod

 

Better known as piano wire your local model shop, if catering for flying models will have it in three foot/metre type lengths for not much more than a few shillin'

 

I almost bought a huge length of it, just because, but ended  buying Albion Alloys tube for the thin upper works coming next on a Wasp near here

 

I believe (credo in another lingo) this will look wonderful if you do in-flight catching with it

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10 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

I've even just gone over and coughed up for a set of these:

$_57.JPG

No. Not breath mints.

'Very Strong' Neodymium Block Bar Magnets. I have a cunning plan.

 

Floating diorama? UFO style? :lol:

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Personally I don't see that the tube will be strong enough for the in-flight scenario, perhaps inserting a rod into the tube will stiffen its resolve?

 

This really is a fascinating build. :thumbsup:

 

Gondor

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1 hour ago, perdu said:

I would advise the court milud that a tube is stronger than a rod in any circumstances as it's internal resistance to bending is stronger than a rods due to its inner walls fighting a tendency to get closer because circles resist change

 

That makes ridiculously no sense at all but I do mean well. Honest

From my limited* engineering experience I can understand that Bill. Is that at all similar in principle  to building bathyscapes with spherical cabins to resist ocean pressures?

1 hour ago, perdu said:

But if you are planning to bend it a little go the whole hog and use steel rod

 

Better known as piano wire

Bona advice omi. :thumbsup2: I've just put a couple of lengths on order from some RC guys in Dublin.

1 hour ago, perdu said:

but ended  buying Albion Alloys tube for the thin upper works coming next on a Wasp near here

:Tasty:

 

 

*Watching How It's Made :lol:

 

1 hour ago, The Spadgent said:

Floating diorama? UFO style? :lol:

Now that would just be si- Actually I hadn't thought of that! :nerd: I'll reveal the actual plan  later when I've had a chance to do some more detailed measuring and plotting.

1 hour ago, Gondor44 said:

Personally I don't see that the tube will be strong enough for the in-flight scenario, perhaps inserting a rod into the tube will stiffen its resolve?

I'm inclined to agree Gondor, but I'm going to run a test anyway just to satisfy my own curiosity.

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RC guys in Dublin!!!!

 

Should've got the Martian to razz over in his Hullabaloo thingy and pick it up forree.

 

Does no one flog the stuff West of the Meridian?

 

Like the "spacey" magnety do-hickies,what are we going for? some kind of anti-grav.drive???

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58 minutes ago, Miggers said:

Does no one flog the stuff West of the Meridian?

Where I live Miggers, magnets are considered the work of the devil, and Dublin is to the East. The garden centre sells Wicker Men and DIY means killing your own pig.

 

 

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I'm with Bill.

 

Your tubes will be more resistant to 'snap' than rods.

 

'Tis to do with physics, shear forces and so on.

 

Bent beams. They are. The port looks to be inverse to the starboard in terms of its 'bent' profile. 

 

It's important to remember, as Noel Coward once said, that 'everyone's bent'. Probably everything too; I don't ascribe to the belief that parallel lines can continue into infinity.

 

Bearded chaps in 'Open University' episodes with sandals and diamond socks on BBC2 in the 70's aside; it's balderdash.

 

Now, make sure that you align your wogglers moolie correctly, or your lumin thrums won't dangle correctly.

 

 

All the best

TonyT

 

PS: regarding light.

Think of a dinner party in Narvik in November. With just one tealight candle it's possible to see the reindeer and cloudberry stew, viking carvings and very pretty host, her eyes smiling and glistening in the dim light, a promise of 'hygge' later in the day.

 

With darkness, all detail and promise is gone. 

 

No need for Blackpool illuminations, just one or more tiny, very diffuse, to scale, light sources :thumbsup2: :).

T

Edited by TonyTiger66
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5 hours ago, TheBaron said:

I'm going to try and reproduce the above photo, paracheroot an' all

 

Hooray! Watching even more intently (if that's possible).

Magnets? :hmmm: 

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Just a quick thought Tony about bending the tubes, maybe slipping in some plastic rod would stop it kinking, I.E. like pipe fitters do.

Nice work though , it`s going to be an interesting build.

 

Simon.

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3 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Your tubes will be more resistant to 'snap' than rods.

 

'Tis to do with physics, shear forces and so on.

Hello me old cordwangler!

 

It is the devil's work I tell ye. Man was not made to be privy to such secrets. Those whom the gods would destroy they would first get to build a satellite recovery system on Britmodeller....:blink:

 

I done some ecksperryments this forenoon and had myself a little dangle of my own:

33856493616_0c549f136b_c.jpg

A hefty 5oz of lead and only a gnat's crotchet of a bend in yon titchy 0.6mm tube. The wizards and truthsayers amongst ye are already muttering that this proves nothing as the weight will be all down one end, and not, pray, as substantial as a big beachcasting bomb. Quite right. I just wanted to see all those compressive whatsits and sheary things happening because science.

 

Now with a 1oz barrel weight down one end and it's drooping worse than a yeoman's manhood after a firkin of cloudy scrumpy:

33856494496_2f913e46d7_c.jpg

I can't see it needing to support as much as an ounce (famous last words!) taking into account the likely weight of a diminutive capsule, paracheroot and trailing lines. Nonetheless, a Lovecraftian sense of dark future events forces me to consider some kind of internal stiffening...

 

Inadvertantly, the above shot may indicate a perfect means of getting that variable curve into the tube:

33856492896_b4c8597d4d_c.jpg

If it can be controlled a bit better than this 'ere weevily spigot....:huh:

4 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

PS: regarding light.

Think of a dinner party in Narvik in November. With just one tealight candle it's possible to see the reindeer and cloudberry stew, viking carvings and very pretty host, her eyes smiling and glistening in the dim light, a promise of 'hygge' later in the day.

 

With darkness, all detail and promise is gone. 

That is quite possibly the most enchanting rationale anyone will ever produce on this forum for illuminating a build. :weep:

3 hours ago, CedB said:

 

Hooray! Watching even more intently (if that's possible).

Magnets? :hmmm: 

Yus. Magnets. If we're going to have this thing up on a pole with its danglydoowots trailing behind, it'll need a secure mount. I'm none too enamoured of some solutions where you have to screw a metal bolt or the Frankensteinian like into the fuselage, so I reckon that bunging one or two of those neodymium bricks beneath the floor of the Boxcar would allow it to sit anchored to on an unobtrusive metal plate (maybe on a transparent pillar if I can find the like). The magnets are 3mm thick and there's at least 4mm clearance between floor and fuselage:

33768545671_604f03a1da_c.jpg

Even a quick test with wee 1mm thick neodymium pellets easily clamps on through the plastic to a metal ruler:

33897938365_f10ecd0e51_c.jpg

If this works there's no need for invasive surgery of any kind to vandalize the airframe - the C-119 is  cetainly beamy enough to lay nicely on a decent size of metal plate in order to give it a nice steady centre of gravity with all that fishing tackle catching the jellyfish...

3 hours ago, Spookytooth said:

Just a quick thought Tony about bending the tubes, maybe slipping in some plastic rod would stop it kinking, I.E. like pipe fitters do.

Nice work though , it`s going to be an interesting build.

Great tip Simon - I didn't know pipe fitters did that! I think to be prudent I'm going to need to mock up a parachute/capsule test rig before finalizing those details, just to get an idea of potential weight to be supported.

 

1/72 parachutes....:hmmm:I need to think how i) to build one with all the shroud lines and ii) how to stiffen it into the 'bedraggled sea anenome / caught in the recovery gear' look...

 

I think this build just got longer by a month in the space of a morning!^_^

 

More over the weekend.

:bye: Tony

 

 

 

 

 

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Piano wire is an absolute bu99er to bend & cut. Just saying...

 

As you have already been ably advised, rod of the same diameter as the inner diameter of the tube will aid bending- & also stop the tube walls kinking when so doing

 

K

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Oh my.  I hadn't caught up for a couple of days, and I think it's safe to say that the piste has well and truly been left behind.

 

This is definitely my favourite build at the moment!

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You had me wondering what the magnets were for. 

 

Ingenious, that gap is indeed perfect for the little yet very strong magnets. 

 

At this stage, it seems prudent to point out that you could install a transverse flux maglev system. This would enable you to have a working model capable of capturing a slowly decending parachute.

 

Nice :footy:!

 

TonyT

Edited by TonyTiger66
Spellinge
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and there I was thinking you were going to support the thing via extending the capture booms and making them take the weight....thus getting a totally invisible support 'cos it's cunningly disguised as part of the model......

 

Ian

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11 hours ago, keefr22 said:

Piano wire is an absolute bu99er to bend & cut. Just saying...

I've strong teeth.:wicked:

10 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Oh my.  I hadn't caught up for a couple of days, and I think it's safe to say that the piste has well and truly been left behind.

 

This is definitely my favourite build at the moment!

I feel the weight of expectation heavily upon my shoulders...^_^

9 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

At this stage, it seems prudent to point out that you could install a transverse flux maglev system. This would enable you to have a working model capable of capturing a slowly decending parachute

Ooh this is a hard crowd to please. Tougher than the Glasgow Empire!:D

8 hours ago, limeypilot said:

and there I was thinking you were going to support the thing via extending the capture booms and making them take the weight....thus getting a totally invisible support 'cos it's cunningly disguised as part of the model......

And have it look like it's dragging the parachute along the ground? The spirits of Pelican 9 would be roused to ire...;)

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I might have known something ingenious was afoot. Got to be honest I first thought you were going to rig up some sort of perpetual motion device. Interesting those magnets though. What is their repulsion like? I mean I wouldn't put it past you to have it suspended in mid air...;)

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12 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

Lost for words. :gobsmacked: 

Here's me just footering about doing a bit of dry fitting and gluing this morning feeling quite, quite inadequate.

 

At least you're tubing wasn't drooping like mine....:lol:

11 hours ago, Tomoshenko said:

I might have known something ingenious was afoot. Got to be honest I first thought you were going to rig up some sort of perpetual motion device

Wotcha Tomo. Perpetual motion device? I already have one of those - it's called 'my youngest son'...

11 hours ago, Tomoshenko said:

Interesting those magnets though. What is their repulsion like?

They are bloody strong for their size (I think they're also used in things like electric cars and microphones and the like due to their power to size ratio). Even those little 1mm pellet jobs you saw me playing with above slide over each other like a pair of eels due to the strength of the repulsion involved.

 

11 hours ago, Tomoshenko said:

I mean I wouldn't put it past you to have it suspended in mid air...;)

Aaahhh. We're straying onto matters of faith here Brother Tomo:

N1oSIXHVHmAZ.gif

 

A  busy day today as my youngest perpetual motion machine not only had a birthday, but was graduating at the local university from a Saturday course he'd been doing for the last couple of months in designing cameras. It's a great idea to introduce school children to the idea of university life and very sweet to see them all going up to get their parchments from the President. Afterwards out to a nearby pizzeria for a birthday lunch and then the last part of the afternoon spent taking ease in the sun in the garden. 

 

Just to keep the thread warm this evening I have a minor update to tuck you in with, namely sorting an accurate angle to build the retrieval pole mountings:

33916628625_7b630750e5_c.jpg

This is there or thereabouts when seen from the same height as the actual reference photos that show this view, and from the side, the relative heights now look reasonable as well:

33916629295_6366de6ab5_c.jpg

As you can see I've taken care to make sure that the lower end at the rear is at the approximately correct height for mounting into the hydraulic arms at the rear of the aircraft door. Having established correct levels at either end, what is that angle between deck and pole? Who knows? I'm a dunce at this stuff mathematically when it comes to subtending and such like, but I am a visual person so let's do it with shadows:

33916630115_dcfe839d3f_c.jpg

Probably the Aynchunt Egyptians devised this kind of thing, or who was that Greek who cleverly worked out the circumference of the Earth from the angles of shadows at separate points on the Earth's surface. Eratosthenes I think? Anyway, uncommon deep old files they were (as Jack Aubrey would say): I'm just paddling in the shallows but this should work out to be:

33916628135_a84ccec99d_c.jpg

9°. In your face Ancient Civilization!

 

Right, after a pint or two of tea tomorrow, some hot pole dancing action on the aircraft floor. Bring a hankie to mop yer brows...

 

Night all.

:bye:

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 08/04/2017 at 8:38 AM, Tomoshenko said:

I might have known something ingenious was afoot. Got to be honest I first thought you were going to rig up some sort of perpetual motion device. Interesting those magnets though. What is their repulsion like? I mean I wouldn't put it past you to have it suspended in mid air...;)

Knowing what he's like Tomo,that was exactly my train of thought too........

 

What size brolly was ye satellite/camera doofer floated down under?can it's dimenshuns be assertaineth from t'internet?

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Despite the fact you maintain you aint too good at maths, you would have got marks for showing your working out. Like to see your thought processes and workings out logic and stuff. Oh yeh, sorry to be a smart bottom school swot, but you are correct that it was Eratosthenes who calculated the Earth's circumference; but he did the sticks in the round stuff in Egypt (and it was ancient times), so gold star for you sir! PS got you down for more of a Kepler man.

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4 hours ago, Miggers said:

Knowing what he's like Tomo,that was exactly my train of thought too........

I seem my reputation (or is that ill-repute?) precedes me.:lol: Pull up a shooting-stick old top and take the weight off.

 

4 hours ago, Miggers said:

What size brolly was ye satellite/camera doofer floated down under?can it's dimenshuns be assertaineth from t'internet?

The National Air & Space Museum in the US have one on display here:

https://www.si.edu/object/nasm_A19610100001?width=85%&height=85%&iframe=true&destination=spotlight/national-security-space 

Great for detail, but almost unbelievably unhelpfully they give the dimensions of it when folded up in the display case! I must say the US taxpayer is scandalously ill-served in this instance. 

 

Being the less-glamorous side of this system I can find no reference to parachute diameters when opened for descent in any of the declassified docs and official histories in my paws. At present I'm looking at having to make a comparative estimate from photos, based on the fact that the known length of the retrieval poles (34ft) gives a datum for an educated guess. I suspect there's probably something very specific about this parachute system tucked away in NASA technical histories under the Discoverer series -  such NASA reports tend to be very through on aeronautical history. I've only got hardcopies of their solar system mission for the likes of Voyager, Viking and Pioneer etc though and there's no mention I can see regarding the dimensions of the Discover series parachutes on NASA's main sites. Unless anything concrete turns up it will be (not for the first ime on this build) a resort to guesstimation.:banghead:

3 hours ago, Tomoshenko said:

Despite the fact you maintain you aint too good at maths, you would have got marks for showing your working out. Like to see your thought processes and workings out logic and stuff. Oh yeh, sorry to be a smart bottom school swot, but you are correct that it was Eratosthenes who calculated the Earth's circumference; but he did the sticks in the round stuff in Egypt (and it was ancient times), so gold star for you sir! 

Oooh. That summer in 1980 I spent up a tree in the garden of the flats where we lived reading Carl Sagan's Cosmos finally comes in useful. I knew my family were wrong about me.:rofl:

3 hours ago, Tomoshenko said:

PS got you down for more of a Kepler man.

That's a very (planetary) elliptical statement Tomo! :worthy:. Did you ever read his Somnium btw? A staggering piece of conjecture for the early 17th century...:book:

 

Ok-dokes. Some work. Over a slosh of East Kenya's finest dark leaves a bit of closer-scrutiny revealed the pole mounts to be considerably more complex than first anticipated:

33116874363_5e0dfe250c_c.jpg

When I look at the amount of detail sketched-out here, I have to seriously wonder how much I consciously see in photos sometimes, and how much detail I unconsciously repress to avoid sensing insurmountable tasks and running away.:pipe: By my count there's a minimum of 16 separate sections (8 a side) to be fabricated here. More than I thought! Here's some horizontals cut to size from 0.4mm tubing and ready for use:

33772370202_103824738a_c.jpg

Some of these will need trimming for the port side I fancy but we'll wait until test fitting later to avoid lopping too much off in advance.

 

I was delayed considerably in these undertakings earlier by fiddling endlessly with getting both the lights I have over the desk positioned in order to avoid casting shadows; it's irked me considerably of late at how I always seemed to have a shadow on the edge of the ruler whenever I was measuring something, but this arrangement seems better:

33772370962_5eaba33842_c.jpg

feng-shui master's nightmare! My jade corner is creating false energies in relation to apricot blossoms in Spain, as you've already noticed for yourselves.

 

Anyway, that done it was down to some soldering, Blu-tak and damp tissue heat-barriers giving every impression of a sheep after a visit from the Beast of Bodmin:

33116876153_38f6c58086_c.jpg 

A play of the blowtorch over some 140° lead solder and:

33772372192_510b4f8241_c.jpg

Part of the starboard mounting done.  After a nervous baptism of fire on the Barracuda cantilever previously, I'm relishing getting back to soldering again now that I've ditched the iron (which I'm useless with) and gone over to using a mini-blowtorch. I find something childishly and wonderfully alchemical about turning metal into liquid to make shapes in space.

 

Ok. It's a plus it doesn't look like it'll fall apart any time soon, but how does it look in situ?

33116877133_9e5ba7636b_c.jpg

Seeing this at first I thought I'd gotten way out on my measurements, seeing extent of the spaces between the horizontals there. On checking using the same viewing angle as the reference photos though:

33772373292_c04081c315_c.jpg

...the foreshortening reveals the spacing to be about right, so no errors! A good lesson in not getting tunnel vision on measurements alone but also in confirming against visual references of the real thing as often as possible.

 

Ok. same thing again with the port pole mounts in a kind of wet-tissue sheep-ouroborus:

33116878123_75dce12490_c.jpg

Hey. I made some 'L' s:

33772374442_139ece8772_c.jpg

Yep. a bit off the horizontals I think to meet the wall correctly:

33116872723_6e2a4232d2_c.jpg

I reckon also that I'll need to redo the rear one of that port pair as I haven't made it tall enough to give an elevated enough angle up towards front of the aircraft; aside from that though, today's efforts seem to go pretty smoothly once I'd made sure I had a clear sketch of what went where and what sequence to start putting it together in. They are both quite singular Byzantine structures for these poles and I have to stop myself rushing and remember that although they're both holding those poles in the same orientation, it is with quite different arrangements of parts....

 

Buenas tardes!

:thumbsup2:

Don Baronio

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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