Plumbum Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I have the Tamiya kit with Gregg Boyington's plane he had flown a few times. It was a birdcage -1 side number 83. Tamiya gives you stars and bars with the red surround. For some reason I am doubtful of that, I have seen another -1 side number 93 also a birdcage and the surround was painted out. The only picture I have seen of side number 83 is in a configuration that none of the insignias are visible! Any ideas?---John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hello, John Probably nothing new to you, still ... French publication Aero Journal in its special number Corsair du Pacifique et d'ailleurs published several photos of VMF-214 planes. Apart from 93 you mentioned (which in a colour profile is depicted as having a red surround, although on at least one photo this surround is clearly painted out) there are also photos and a colour profiles of #51 and #64 with red surrounds. Here is the link to the website with the photo of the latter: http://oscarbyalpinestars.blogspot.si/2010/02/black-sheep-squadron.html At least to my eyes this does look red, so one cannot exclude this colour as surround of national markings on Boyington's F4U-1. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plumbum Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Thanks, I think one of his planes did have the red surround and may have been over painted at some time. I think that was side number 883 an F4U-1A and not 83 which was an F4U-1 birdcage Corsair. Numbers 83 and 93 were birdcages from early in the war.---John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hello, John Both #51 and #64 were early birdcage Corsair which flew with the VMF-214 at about the same time as Boyington's #83. So, #83 could also have red surrounding on national markings. Unfortunately, a photo of that plane is probably needed to settle the issue. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatgonzo Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) No red borders on Pacific area. It was official. Well, semi official really, but fully official from the point of view of people responsible for painting the birds. The restriction coordinated and issued by Army and Navy. With thousands of aircraft there it is easy to assume there had to be an exception. There even are strong candidates to stand as such an exception, sure. Still, the day is yet to come when the hard proof for red bordered insignia on the operational aircraft in the theatre will show up. Edited March 7, 2017 by greatgonzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plumbum Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 I've seen the VMF-214 plane with the red surround. Never say never. It's plane 64 and I believe Magee, Bolt and McClurg are among the members in the photo.---John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatgonzo Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Where? It would be a real treasure, so I'd love to see it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plumbum Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Here, B&W, scroll down to Paul Mullen.Parlevous Francais?---John http://barback69.centerblog.net/rub-BLACK-SHEEP-SQUADRON-2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hello All, This is very interesting as I'm building a VMF-214 F4U-1A myself; possibly the famous one which was used for Boyington's "Hero Shots" but which he never actually took to combat. I have Bruce Gamble's excellent book "Swashbucklers and Black Sheep" with first class full page photos. Looking these pictures carefully I can say that: - #61, #63 and #93 had the red surround roughly overpainted with "medium" gray - #64X has red surround (I think this the photo Johnv mentioned in an earlier post) - The F-4U-1A #86 was named "Lucybelle" (two photos to prove this) - #507 had the red neatly overpainted on the star but left red on the bars (Starboard wing lower) - #51 had red surround on the national insignia - #29 and #35 had no borders; just star insignia with white bars - Some aircraft had national insignias on both wings; top side for example "Stars and Bars" on Port wing and "Bare Star" on Starboard wing There is also a mention on page 75 that the Corsairs carried the red surrounds "for a brief period during the summer of 1943". Hope this helps Best Regards, Antti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck1945 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 What I see in the picture is the outline on the white bar looks to match the blue in the circle with the star, what is visible of the circle appears to have an outline that is a different color from the blue inside, Whether that is the remains of a red outline ... What is known though is what greatgonzo said; from mid 1942 (7 May 1942 SECNAVY directive) the US Navy tried to eliminate any red from markings in the Pacific. When the red outline to the star/bar was authorized (28 June 1943), it took about a month before 3rd Fleet countermanded the directive (31 July '43) and ordered immediate removal of the red outline in the South Pacific Area. Any red outlines probably didn't last very long if they even made it to the Solomon's, Note also that the 31 July directive predates VMF 214's arrival, if just barely. The dates and issuance info comes from Elliot's The Official Monogram US Navy and Marine Corps Aircraft Color Guide, Vol 2, 1940-49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatgonzo Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 55 minutes ago, Johnv said: Here, B&W, scroll down to Paul Mullen.Parlevous Francais?---John http://barback69.centerblog.net/rub-BLACK-SHEEP-SQUADRON-2.html C'mon, I've seen many grey framed US insignias on b&w pics. I was hoping for red... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hello Greatgonzo, I was about to dismiss your claim out of hand, as I clearly remembered seeing scores of colour wartime photos of US Navy aircraft with red national markings surround. However, when I checked on some of them, I realized they had been taken either in ZI either on Atlantic carriers, with possible exception of one colour photo of Harpoon on Alaska. However, no regulation is adhered to strictly and I believe red surround not only survived on individual aircraft, but also on a, say, distinct minority of aircraft. While B/W photos are not a proof, they certainly are a good indication. That said I would very much like to see, like everybody else I suspect, a clear colour photo of VMF 214 Corsair with national insignia surrounded in red, sitting near airstrip on, say, Munda. Chuck1945, 31st July directive does predates VMF 214 first operation, however, according to Gregory Boyington's book, this squadron had been scraped together in theatre with whatever or whoever was at hand. Boyington mentioned that even the number had been ˝borrowed˝ from another squadron. So, aircraft of the VMF 214 were hand-me-downs from other units, which had been there before the directive ordered removal of red surrounds. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Good points Jure! And when we understand Black and White photography we can make better than just educated guesses. Many online photos are out of this process as they may have been scanned from poor quality prints, re-sized several times and possibly photoshopped. It is quite easy to tell from B+W photos which film and filter combination was used. When this is done it is quite easy to confirm the colours. Gamble's book contains excellent prints from the originals, I guess I can spend a little more time with this Best Regards, Antti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plumbum Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Great posts,and good questions. My original post though was actually asking if anyone had seen pictures of birdcage Corsair side number 83 which Major Boyington had flown early on occasionally with red surrounds around the national insignia. I have seen one picture ofit landing with NO insignia visible at all , red, bue, purple or pink!I am guessing they were stars and bars and not just roundles with stars?---John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Hi! Not exactly Corsairs, still ... http://i.imgur.com/ynPHQgp.jpg PV-1 Ventura of VB-136 on Aleutians, possibly Kodiak, in 1943. Another colour photo of the same aircraft, taken at the same time by Jeff Ethell has been published in John C. Stanaway's book Vega, Ventura - the operational history of Lockheed's lucky star, by Schiffer. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/18/c4/29/18c429e933c0116750b475a7fd8bf3ae.jpg Photo of PBY-5A Catalina with Venturas in the background, taken at about the same time on the same location as the previous one. In above mentioned Stanaway's book there is another full page colour photo of the Ventura to the right of the picture, and five aircraft of the same type in the background. At least three of Venturas, and possibly all six, have national markings with red surrounds. Another interesting feature of these aircraft are stars and bars on both noses and fuselages. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plumbum Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 Yep, even Big Hog had em. But where's pic of 83 with em? ---John Big Hog by jvandeu53, on Flickr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Hi, John Carefully with this photo, it looks like original B/W one, digitally colourised recently. That, however, does not necessarily mean Big Hog was without red outline. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 13 hours ago, Antti_K said: And when we understand Black and White photography we can make better than just educated guesses.... It is quite easy to tell from B+W photos which film and filter combination was used. When this is done it is quite easy to confirm the colours. Sorry, but it is impossible to "confirm" a colour from a black and white image. It might reinforce the most likely answer, but still an educated guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 39 minutes ago, gingerbob said: Sorry, but it is impossible to "confirm" a colour from a black and white image. It might reinforce the most likely answer, but still an educated guess. Hello gingerbob, I agree and disagree with You I agree that it is impossible to confirm let's say which colour -RLM 02 or RLM 76- is painted on a certain aircraft. I disagree in this case as we are trying to identify a deep red colour; red and blue appear in exact shades of grey on photos when we can find out the film and filter combination. Of course a greater accuracy will be achieved if we have more than one photo. Best Regards, Antti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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