The July 1942 race at Farnborough with the FW190, Typhoon and DP845 Spitfire

[gingerbob]

(That was me)

[Troy Smith]

there is a thread on DP845 here

 

which discusses various configurations and has photos and sketches.

 

HTH

T

 

 

 

[Greenshirt]

In 1/72 I used the ABC fuselage married to a Tamiya "a" wing and rudder. I didn't know enough about the flaps at the time to attempt it. The ABC kit spinner looks the part, but the rest of the details need to come from the donor kit. 

 

I vowed to try again when a new XII kit hits the street, my attempt looks horrid. 

[MilneBay]

9 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

That answers a question I was about to post, on the position of the flap hinges.  I presume that you've placed them in the same position as the standard flaps, following the logic of using the same load paths through the wing structure?   

 

That was my reasoning Graham - I started out because I had in my Spit Bits box a complete Airfix MkXII fuselage plus various wing sets of old Airfix MkVbs as a result of all the kit bashing in building this series of 1/48 Spitfires and Seafires. I had then just recently built the MkIII which is another story so there was this gap in the series just waiting to be filled. So following the principle of "well as I have already paid for all these unused bits what's to lose"  I just started carving and cutting and gluing. The real hard problem was finding that prototype yellow circled P decal, oh and the aforesaid deciding what stage in its career to build it.    

[Chris Thomas]

On 3/3/2017 at 6:55 PM, Chris Thomas said:

 I'm away from my records so it will be 10 days or so before you will find out if it was misplaced or not.  I can say it was a cardoor job with an R-serial and no identity markings. Roundels could be Type A or C, being just after the change. I once ploughed through all the Farnborough aerodrome logs so I should have it; if I can find the notes!. Does anyone have an exact date for the event?

Chris 

Well, "10 days" or maybe 14 months...

 

At last I have had access to the RAE logs but regret to say there is little relevant information in there!  There is no mention of DP845 or MP499 around 20-22 July 1942 and the the only Typhoon activity recorded is R7576, engaged on Carbon Monoxide tests (leakage thereof being a perennial Typhoon problem).

 

I ploughed on through the log and was about to give up when on 4 September 1942 3 Typhoons arrived.  R7632 from Langley (Hawker factory) flown by Bill Humble, R7698 from Duxford (which had been the prime RAF Typhoon airfield for the past year) flown by "P/O Miller" (presumably P/O J.D.Miller who was with 266 Sqn Duxford at the time), and R8693 from Brockworth (Gloster factory) flown by John Crosby-Warren.  

 

R8693 was straight off Gloster's production line and was for RAE to use in diving tests associated with the Typhoon tail failures.

R7632 was serving with Hawker as an R&D aircraft.

R7698 was Duxford WCF, Wg Cdr Denys Gillam's personal aircraft, coded 'Z-Z'.

 

The latter two only stayed for 5 and 2 days respectively with only Humble in R7632 recorded as flying (40 mins) during that period. So what were they there for? And if these visitors were recorded, why not those on 20 (or 22) July?

 

No mention of DP845 or MP499 on this occasion either.  However the arrival of a manufacture's Typhoon with test pilot and a 'service' Typhoon rang bells with GordonM's post no.8 above.  According to Spitfire the history, DP845 was delivered to A&AEE Boscombe Down, for extended trials, the day before these Typhoons arrived with RAE. 

 

So, apologies ... no answers I'm afraid.  Anyone know the whereabouts of Bill Humble's logbook?

CT

[Graham Boak]

Try TV's Kate Humble, who is aware of her father's exploits - if not in the detail expected here!

[gingerbob]

Thanks Chris for reminding me of this thread!  I just had a poke around my computer "brain" and managed to find my sparse note:

 

AVIA 1/15 RAE Farnborough Flight Log

 

3/7 "A Flight" MP499 15, 20 minute flights W/C Wilson

5th several flights

...     [Note: I take this to mean that I may have left out some data that I considered inconsequential]

12/7 Wheeler

 

22/7 Wilson "E Flight" 1620, 20 mins; "Demonstration" 150/195 (numbers in rh column) [Edit: Having re-read Quill's description in "Spitfire", he does state that it was 22 July, and also refers to 'a demonstration', and that Kenneth Seth-Smith was the Typhoon pilot.  He was killed on 11 August in R7692 in one of the 'tail-shedding' incidents.]

 

~~~~~~~~

I have no idea what those numbers at the end refer to, and I can only assume that there was no flight logged on the 20th, or I think I'd have made note of it.  I certainly found the comment "Demonstration" of interest.

 

I guess I'll have to do some more poking around, to refresh my memory of what I know and what I still wonder.  I'll be back.

 

bob

Edited May 22, 2018 by gingerbob

[FinnAndersen]

14 hours ago, Chris Thomas said:

Well, "10 days" or maybe 14 months...

 

So, apologies ... no answers I'm afraid.  Anyone know the whereabouts of Bill Humble's logbook?

CT

No apologies needed, I'm impressed by your effort to find such an elusive (and obscure) fact for a total stranger-

 

As the OP, I salute you!

 

/Finn

 

(I suspect that I'll make a Rxxxx bird, and dare any of you to prove that it's not the right one for the race 🙂 )

[gingerbob]

According to another thread I found, Humble's logbook is at the RAF Museum.

[72modeler]

Hey, guys,

 

Does this link help? Sounds like Jeffery was my kind of guy! I would love to have been there to see/hear DP845 hauling the mail! That Spitfire sure wore a lot of different hats in its lifetime- a shame she wasn't saved for posterity. Text taken from The Magic of a Name- the Rolls-Royce Story, Part 1, the First Forty Years.

Mike

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=CdXGBwAAQBAJ&pg=PT301&lpg=PT301&dq=jeffrey+quill's+account+of+the+race+between+the+spitfire+typhoon+and+fw-190&source=bl&ots=M0oF4YzcO_&sig=55DDJV_rtlWz76eCHiQJryDY8JI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig76Px0pnbAhWRrFkKHdp7COcQ6AEwAXoECAEQLQ#v=onepage&q=jeffrey quill's account of the race between the spitfire typhoon and fw-190&f=false

Edited May 22, 2018 by 72modeler
added link

[Beard]

20 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Try TV's Kate Humble, who is aware of her father's exploits - if not in the detail expected here!

Bill is Kate's Grandfather (or she's a LOT older than she looks).

[grahamf]

Quill mentions 22 July for the comparative tests as he states it was one day after it was announced that ' our mastery of the day-light air is threatened' by Sir Archibald Sinclair.

In another book 'Ultimate Spitfires 20 July is mentioned and both agree on the Pilot Seth-Smith. I have looked in the back of Typhoon and Tempest [ Mason ] and there is a list of test flights at Langley and on the 20 July R7632 was used to test take offs at various flap angles flown by Seth-Smith. The 22 July is not mentioned and the only other aircraft in and around that date is R7577  another 1A. There are one or two others but they all seem to have some modification which I would have thought ruled them out.

 

Graham

 

 

 

[Chris Thomas]

15 hours ago, grahamf said:

Quill mentions 22 July for the comparative tests as he states it was one day after it was announced that ' our mastery of the day-light air is threatened' by Sir Archibald Sinclair.

In another book 'Ultimate Spitfires 20 July is mentioned and both agree on the Pilot Seth-Smith. I have looked in the back of Typhoon and Tempest [ Mason ] and there is a list of test flights at Langley and on the 20 July R7632 was used to test take offs at various flap angles flown by Seth-Smith. The 22 July is not mentioned and the only other aircraft in and around that date is R7577  another 1A. There are one or two others but they all seem to have some modification which I would have thought ruled them out.

 

Graham

 

 

 

Good idea to refer to that list Graham and I agree with your logic that the Typhoon would have been an unmodified one. I would not expect to see the flight to Farnborough recorded as the dates given are, I believe, dates of the reports which summarised the results of the forgoing trials, which may well have involved more than one (many even) flights.  I did think that R7692 that Seth-Smith had been flying on spinning trials at that time might have been a candidate too but have found a note which says it had a 'tail chute' fitted for the trials. It was the Typhoon Seth-Smith was killed in following a structural failure on 11 August 1942.

 

The best choice therefore seems to be R7632 which Graham has already identified. The problem is to define its appearance.  It was certainly built by Gloster as a MkIA with the solid cockpit fairing but it was then delivered to Hawkers for mods on 14 March 1942. These would certainly have included replacement of the solid cockpit fairing with the transparent rear section, but maybe included fitting of cannon as well.  After that it went into temporary store at 18 MU Dumfries before being allocated to Hawker for R&D on 25 April 1942.  If R7632 was indeed the Typhoon in the 'race' I would guess it had cannon as I am sure the organisers of the event would have preferred to see a Typhoon representative of the current production version.

Chris