The July 1942 race at Farnborough with the FW190, Typhoon and DP845 Spitfire

[FinnAndersen]

I've done the FW190 and am halfway done with DP845 and now I'm drawn to the Tiffie.

 

However, despite much Googling, I have drawn a blank about the Typhoon. 

 

I assume that it would be a car door model, but that's just conjecture and I have absolutely no idea about the plane, the serial and the painting scheme.

 

Would anyone have information to help my quest here?

 

TIA

Finn Andersen

[Troy Smith]

that would be Chris Thomas,  if anyone on here is going to know, it will be Chris, for example

If no response soon, send Chris a PM,  he likes a good Typhoon question.

 

HTH

T

 

 

[gingerbob]

Oh, that's an interesting question- I've done some research on this "race", but I don't recall seeing reference to which Tiff was actually used.  If Chris doesn't know, I bet he'll be able to find out!  (And if it turns out that I already have the answer, I'll let the gang know, too.)

 

bob

[Chris Thomas]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Troy! However I'm away from my records so it will be 10 days or so before you will find out if it was misplaced or not.  I can say it was a cardoor job with an R-serial and no identity markings. Roundels could be Type A or C, being just after the change. I once ploughed through all the Farnborough aerodrome logs so I should have it; if I can find the notes!. Does anyone have an exact date for the event?

Chris 

[FinnAndersen]

3 hours ago, Chris Thomas said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence Troy! However I'm away from my records so it will be 10 days or so before you will find out if it was misplaced or not.  I can say it was a cardoor job with an R-serial and no identity markings. Roundels could be Type A or C, being just after the change. I once ploughed through all the Farnborough aerodrome logs so I should have it; if I can find the notes!. Does anyone have an exact date for the event?

Chris 

I've found one reference stating July 20 1942 as the date of the race.

 

/Finn

[Troy Smith]

Hi Finn

 

regarding camo and markings,  the old Ducimus guide is still a very good reference, scans are here

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/04-Hawker-Tornado-Typhoon

 

the points Chris mentions are discussed here

 

the link has a lot of information, including the  camouflage diagram 

 

 

HTH

T

[gingerbob]

17 hours ago, Chris Thomas said:

I once ploughed through all the Farnborough aerodrome logs so I should have it; if I can find the notes!. Does anyone have an exact date for the event?

 

Oh, that reminds me... I have some notes from a flight log... somewhere...

 

I seem to remember even being uncertain about the date. 20 or 22 July, or somewhere right around there.

 

The way I perceive it now, which admittedly is subject to revision, is that there was already interest in a Spitfire with single-stage Griffon as a good "we need it now (or rather next spring)" low-level fighter.  Quill would probably not have known that, but it might explain some of the enthusiasm when he "pulled a fast one" (quite literally!) by bringing DP845.

 

I'll have to root around some more- I have the sinking feeling that it might be a handwritten note on paper.  In which case, wish me luck!

 

bob

[GordonM]

I'm sure I'm repeating information you already are aware of, but the March 2017 edition of  Aeroplane has an article by Ben Dunnell on the FW190 MP499 tests, in which it states that due to engine roughness there wasn't time to carry out full tests. He states the Typhoons used were one from Hawker and one from 'a squadron' and suggesting that DP845 was even less thoroughly tested due to adverse weather. There is nothing in the article which suggests that there was a race between all three types?

[Work In Progress]

No, that information comes from Jeffrey Quill's autobiography.

[FinnAndersen]

10 hours ago, GordonM said:

I'm sure I'm repeating information you already are aware of, but the March 2017 edition of  Aeroplane has an article by Ben Dunnell on the FW190 MP499 tests, in which it states that due to engine roughness there wasn't time to carry out full tests. He states the Typhoons used were one from Hawker and one from 'a squadron' and suggesting that DP845 was even less thoroughly tested due to adverse weather. There is nothing in the article which suggests that there was a race between all three types?

So Jeffrey Quill made it all up?

 

I believe you are talking about the comparative tests between the FW190 and RAF types, which were hampered by inclement  weather.

 

/Finn

[GordonM]

12 hours ago, FinnAndersen said:

So Jeffrey Quill made it all up?

 

I believe you are talking about the comparative tests between the FW190 and RAF types, which were hampered by inclement  weather.

 

/Finn

I'm not suggesting Jeffery Quill 'made it all up' the article I referred to appears fairly in depth about the comparative tests, no where does the author quote tests other than between individual aircraft. I apologise if I appeared to be questioning a race between aircraft. The article suggests that due to adverse weather and a rough engine tests were curtailed, several types appearing to have very little comparative flying at all.

[FinnAndersen]

9 hours ago, GordonM said:

I'm not suggesting Jeffery Quill 'made it all up' the article I referred to appears fairly in depth about the comparative tests, no where does the author quote tests other than between individual aircraft. I apologise if I appeared to be questioning a race between aircraft. The article suggests that due to adverse weather and a rough engine tests were curtailed, several types appearing to have very little comparative flying at all.

No need to apologise, you just did what we all do: Try to pitch in with the knowledge that you have.

 

/Finn  

[MilneBay]

This is my 1/48 interpretation of DP845 I did some time back. Heavily modified Airfix MKXII with parts from my box of Spit Bits. This is it in what I think is the "race" finish. Could be wrong. 

 

[nuuumannn]

Nice, but DP845 had clipped wingtips.

 

From RAF-in-combat.com; photos 6, 7 and 8:

 

http://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/spitfire-prototype-and-experimental-airframes-17-photos/

 

 

[MilneBay]

Not in its first incarnation - and bear in mind it changed appearance many times as a test aircraft.

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by MilneBay
clarification

[gingerbob]

DP845 had three entirely different sets of wings fitted by the end of 1942, let alone the wingtips!  (At the time of the race I believe that it had the slotted flap, with prominent external hinges- and probably standard tips.)

Edited March 8, 2017 by gingerbob

[Graham Boak]

There was me thinking that the problem with modelling the Mk.IV was that it was just the same as a Mk.12.  Apart from the dummy 6-cannon fit, which is just plain ugly - and given the handling drawbacks with the 4 cannon, never a likely fit.  That spinner might take a bit of finding.

 

PS that photo isn't the first incarnation - it began with the original rudder (as on the model).  It always had the retractable tailwheel though.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Graham Boak

[gingerbob]

34 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

It always had the retractable tailwheel though.

 

Actually, I believe they fitted a fixed-tailwheel stern end when it was becoming the Mk.XII prototype- or at least that was intended.  I'll have to double-check!

 

bob

[Graham Boak]

Interesting!  I admit to thinking in terms of being retractable from the start, not thinking that they'd have "stepped back" is such a manner.  It still had the retractable tailwheel as a Mk.XII (Mk.XX, whatever) in the photos in STH, despite being rewinged at least once.

 

Have you seen drawings of the action of the slotted flap?  Angles used for take-off and landing?  Size and position of hinges?  It would be one way to make a Mk.IV look different.

 

 

[gingerbob]

For fixed tailwheel, see photo 21 on this page (Sept '42).

 

I don't remember having any real specifics on the slotted flap.  Troy started a thread not that long ago (which I'd meant to look up anyway, since it pertains to DP845) and the first shot shows the hinges pretty well.  I don't know for sure whether the slotted flaps were still fitted in July '42, but it was that wing [which had previously been on a Mk.I, R6718] that was replaced by a 'c' wing as part of preparation as the Mk.XII prototype.

 

Later DP845 got the retract tailwheel back, as well as a production spinner (and presumably prop?) (see photos 7/8 of the first link).

 

bob

Edited March 8, 2017 by gingerbob

[MilneBay]

When I decided to add the MKIV to my series of 1/48 Spitfires the biggest difficulty was deciding which particular incarnation to pick. I went for one with the early rudder and without those hideous "cannon" barrels. I scratch built (carved) the external hinges on the bottom of the wing. For the wing I used an old spare Spitfire MkVb wing suitably filled. The rudder was a spare from the Hasegawa MkIX IIRC.

 

This is how I tried to interpret the underside.

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by MilneBay

[MilneBay]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

PS that photo isn't the first incarnation - it began with the original rudder (as on the model).  It always had the retractable tailwheel though.

 

Yes I was aware of that - I was quickly looking for a pic with the normal wing tips. 

[Graham Boak]

That answers a question I was about to post, on the position of the flap hinges.  I presume that you've placed them in the same position as the standard flaps, following the logic of using the same load paths through the wing structure?   Which raises another question about the possible angles on this new flap.  Three are quoted in STH, with the inboard flap linked to give the same angle.  As this was before the use of wedges to get intermediate take-off angles on Seafires, were they even considering more subtle options?  Or was it just the effect of a slotted flap on landing that concerned them?  The thought of a Spitfire with Fairey-Youngmann flaps, as mentioned in STH, is a bit scary.  But there were a number of ideas for the Mk.IV that didn't get tried in practice - short ailerons, pointy tips and larger wheels for example.

 

Now to go looking through the stack to find an A wing that fits onto a Mk.XII fuselage.  Preferably one with easily-removable lower flaps.

[Procopius]

Aw, I love the look of the six-cannon fit. I feel so alone now.

[FinnAndersen]

Now this thread was about the Typhoon in the race at Farnborough.

As to what DP845 was looking at that time, I got this on HS: (Search for DP845 to find the thread)

 

Hi,
I finally got curious enough to look a little, and I found this:
Chase to Supermarine 25/6/42
2. It is also noted that wings and undercarriage removed from Spitfire R6718 have been fitted by you to DP845. [Note: I believe that these are the 'a' wings with the flap brackets.]
Marsh-Hunn to C.23c 4/10/42
In addition, Spitfire F.20 DP845 has been converted to serve as a prototype Spitfire XII and the following alterations have been carried out:
Wings (originally ex R6718) removed, and a pair of Vc production wings fitted. these wings complete with flaps, ailerons, etc. were taken from our production line and modified to incorporate a small blister on the gun panel over the inboard cannons. 
Stern end with retractable tail wheel removed, and standard type stern end fitted, but with large chord rudder.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, I would say full-span wing, original rudder, retract tailwheel. It was pictured in September '42 with 4-spoke wheels, but they also mention testing new brakes, so I suspect at the time of the "race" they were still 5-spoke. Not sure which prop it would have had at that time.
bob