Serious Help Needed - 3-toned P-38's?

[TheRealMrEd]

Okay, what exactly am I looking at here? Are these P-38's painted sort of dark grey tops and bottoms, sort of a 3-tone paint job, or am I seeing reflections of the mountain range in O.D. camo? Note that the patterns vary, particularly on the tail planes.

If multi-color, any guess what the lighter grey looking one might be?

 

Hello Dana Bell -- or anyone else -- feel free to opine!

 

`

 

Ed

[MilneBay]

That grey colour on the wings is actually water - those were in the Aleutians IIRC and the climate is rather damp. There was a discussion about these some years back on Plane Talking.

Edited March 3, 2017 by MilneBay

[Rob G]

http://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/squadron-of-american-lockheed-p-38-lightning-fighter-planes-news-photo/53315688#squadron-of-american-lockheed-p38-lightning-fighter-planes-in-flight-picture-id53315688

 

 

Doesn't help with the colour, but there's some unit details.

[JWM]

There is an asymmetry between left and right wings on first machine, also difference in colours pattern on vertical tails between first and second machines. I would suggest some fresh OD repaint as a reason for this effect rather any optical one, like for example shadow coused by angle to Sun, which is sharp from front (and thus the shadow on trailing part of wings)) or physical (like steam condensation on the  border of laminar flow over wing - this is I think what you mean by "water effect"?). But the steam condensation will produce some white stuff, not darker . If you think just about wettnes, I think the wing surface will dry immediately when flying due to moving in air.

What is on tails and looks grey - perhaps it is just stains from exhaust smoke?

Anyway, beautifull photo! Thanks to the Life magizine a couple of very nice colour photos of WWII era airplanes are available (Boeing 307, for example). Are they on some single www page by chance? 

Cheers

J-W   

[MilneBay]

Nope as I recall the consensus was that they were wet - I suspect they were photographed fairly soon after take off. Without dredging up all the silliness of the last thread here that discussed OD it was easy to stain and things like moisture would darken it briefly. There could be a touch up of paint here and there but that appears to have only allowed the OD to exhibit its usual fondness for being all things to every separate observer. 

[bentwaters81tfw]

There is the possibility they have recently flown through heavy rain, and the airflow is drying them out. Disruptive camo on OD was always a contrasting green. I really would not like to call it.

[Work In Progress]

2 hours ago, JWM said:

 If you think just about wettnes, I think the wing surface will dry immediately when flying due to moving in air.

 

 

Not instantly at all, if it's a humid day. If it is a freshly-waxed super-glossy aeroplane then the water will bead up and chase off quickly, but not if it is matt painted and/or worn paint. And if it wasn't humid you woud not have just flown through cloud or rain, which may well be what's  happened there. Based on personal experience of those circumstances when you emerge from the cloud, the aeroplane will dry in very much that sort of pattern.

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Work In Progress

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

It looks like a fairly normal OD and NG scheme to me, albeit with some NG sprayed on the tails of the second aircraft.

 

The shading on the wings would appear entirely typical of water, i.e. laminar flow for the first 1/3 wing chord to suck the paint dry and a bigger boundary layer behind the spar allowing the paint to retain more water.

[Graham Boak]

I agree about the effect on the wings, but that still leaves the different colours on the nose.  Do all these aircraft have an anti-glare panel of some kind?  Also of note, the darker appearance of the OD on the engine cowlings and booms (compared to the wings) may be a result of heating and handling.  Another interesting detail is the black(?) at the radiator exit.

[Dana Bell]

Hi Ed,

 

I've always been curious about these aircraft, and I'm not certain what we're seeing, but I suspect that aircraft 74 has seen a field repaint with an OD that differed from the factory's paint.  I'm  not comfortable with the wet wing theory - if wet, why only one aircraft, and why only outboard of the booms?

 

1942 photos of this unit show a good deal of wear on leading edges, probably due to the pumice in the volcanic soil at those Aleutian bases; the second and fourth aircraft in this 1943 formation certainly seem to have metallic reflections on the leading edges, as do #74's wings inside the booms and stabs outside of the fins.

 

My best guess is that #74 was fitted with Lockheed's leading edge fuel tank kit, then repainted to cover the kit's aluminum finish - the kit was fitted only outside the booms, so the inboard wing panels wouldn't have automatically been repainted.  Crews may have taken the opportunity to retouch some of the wear on parts of the tail, but I've no evidence either way.  Anyhow, that's my best guess - if I would build this aircraft, I'd paint two different ODs on the wings and tails.

 

One other note is the reworked radio call number on #74.  On many P-38s, Lockheed misread the specs on applying the radio call number and simply applied the last five digits of the serial - that's certainly the case on the other three aircraft in the formation.  But on #74, someone took the time to squeeze in the first "2" (from fiscal year 42) using a slightly different style digit.  Few Lightnings had this correction added.

 

Just one man's opinion - enjoy the build!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

 

[Graham Boak]

The effect isn't only on the wings - you can see it on the tailplane too.  Though it doesn't seem to have affected the tip, which is odd.  Touching up for wear and tear would be unlikely to go so far aft as on the starboard wing - or indeed quite so far aft at all, yet we can exclude leading edge tanks in the tailplane.  The effect is also asymmetric on the wings, with the lighter colour going further aft on the starboard wing near the boom (perhaps as expected had leading edge tanks been fitted) yet not going to the same depth on the port wing.  This is perhaps more reasonable for a transient happening such as drying after a rainstorm  The apparent lack of this effect on the more distant aircraft is difficult to explain this way, but the view of them isn't anywhere near as clear.  

 

Only two different ODs?  I think you need more than that.

[Cookenbacher]

I agree that it is probably water - see this clip of Aleutian airfield conditions. I think the leading surfaces have dried, while the trailing surfaces are still wet.

[TheRealMrEd]

Okay, here's a little more for further review"

 

 

Pic on the left, above is a closeup of the #74 plane in the earlier-posted photo. Pic on the right, above, is the same aircraft, apparently a moment or two later in the same flight, except  in black and white, and from a slightly different vantage point -- and also, apparently, with a feathered engine. Note the shadow of the prop, which establishes the angle of the sun.  Also, at least to me, the markings appear not to have changed, despite a few miles drying time later on. For me, this seems to rule out water vapor as the cause, not to mention that it;s a bright, clear day at a fairly low altitude, with no evidence of fog or haze.

Also, I would thnk that the absence of one prop turning would alter the appearance if water vapor, etc. were involved.

 

 

This photo is an excerpt from the same flight photo, featuring the "Itsy Bitsy" flown by then Capt. George Laven. This is his second aircraft, the original Itsy Bitsy was #76 buzz number. That aircraft  was flown by Laven back to Dallas for aircraft repairs,  I do not know if this was the same aircraft (412076) shown in later photos as #76, returned to battle and flown by someone else.

 

In any event, this is just a little closer look at the other planes in that flight -- showing similar questionable paint - weather - whatever. On area to look at is in the area of the national insignia, on the fuse booms...

I really hate trying to decipher WW II color photos, as the possiblity of O.D. shifting to blue is well-documented. I just don't know if it happens to random areas of photos or not.

 

Second and even third opinions and guesses welcomed.

 

Ed

Edited March 3, 2017 by TheRealMrEd
info added

[JWM]

5 hours ago, SovereignHobbies said:

The shading on the wings would appear entirely typical of water, i.e. laminar flow for the first 1/3 wing chord to suck the paint dry and a bigger boundary layer behind the spar allowing the paint to retain more water.

I would maybe agree with theory of laminar/turbulent flow over wing, however the border between them should be symmetrical on left and right wings - and it is not...This should result is huge difference in aerodynamic force from left and right wing.

I noticed as passanger (and physicist)  that border between laminar and turbulent flow can be noticable and looks like a thin dark line at least in some light angle. It means - at least I observed it not each time when I was sitting by the window. Here I would rather suspect, that the leading edge is in sunlight, whereas the rear part of wing is in shadow, since the Sun is very low over horizont, shining to front of airplanes. But it also should be symmetrical for both wings - and it is not. Therefore I am thinking on re-paint

Cheers

J-W

P.S.

I've wrote  above before now enlarged photos were put. Now I am sure - this is not any physical effect - jest fresh /old paint and on tail of second machine - some NG paint.

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by JWM
added PS

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I may change my stance here and agree that it's probably a repaint here having seen the follow up pics.

[occa]

Notice the similarity between the underside color and the lighter repainted areas ?

Therefore I think the repaint is in Neutral Grey, probably they ran out of OD ...

[TheRealMrEd]

Occa, that's kind of where I am also, but thinking that the undersides are slightly faded, and the neutral gray on top is fresh paint. However, does anyone have any thoughts or photos that suggest that underside paint fades quickly in harsh environments? I kind of thought that happened mostly on the topsides, but I'm not sure. Comments anyone?

 

Ed

[bentwaters81tfw]

Considering the conditions of the airfields, a mix of water and volcanic ash, and you have an abrasive. I suspect the airframes were touched up frequently, with whatever they had stocks of.

[Cookenbacher]

In the Aleutians, the sun is probably not fading anything - those pictures were probably taken on the only sunny day in 1943 (barely kidding). Temperature wise, the Aleutians are one of the warmest parts of Alaska, but still have some of the worst weather in the world. The soil is volcanic and it's constantly windy and rainy when there's not a storm, so I think paint jobs received an overall beating. I grew up in Alaska, but have never visited the Aleutians.

[Antti_K]

On 3.3.2017 at 7:54 PM, JWM said:

 

I noticed as passanger (and physicist)  that border between laminar and turbulent flow can be noticable and looks like a thin dark line at least in some light angle. It means - at least I observed it not each time when I was sitting by the window.

 

Hello all,

 

The "dark" area is a sign telling that there is a Shock Wave building up. This visible "wall" is a boundary between two very different air pressures. It also tells that the aircraft will enter a high speed buffet if airspeed is not reduced.

 

At first I thought that this might simply be a "defect" in the printing process but the second black and white photo showed that this not the case.

 

It is maybe possible that the leading edges have been polished and therefore they reflect the light differently. It is important to keep the leading edges of a laminar flow wings very clean. How does it sound?

 

I wouldn't fly low over the ocean in a formation with water or visible moisture on the wings and with one engine shut down.

 

Best Regards,

Antti

 

[Work In Progress]

10 hours ago, Antti_K said:

The "dark" area is a sign telling that there is a Shock Wave building up. This visible "wall" is a boundary between two very different air pressures. It also tells that the aircraft will enter a high speed buffet if airspeed is not reduced.

 

 

There is zero chance of a P-38 going fast enough in level flight at low level for that to be the case, especially on one engine as seen in TheRealMr Ed's pic above!

[woody37]

I think it's just a simple case of being repainted 

[TheRealMrEd]

After a little more messing about with Photoshop, I think that Dana Bell was right, along with all the other "touch-up" type paint votes:

 

 

With the addition of a little yellow filter, more O.D. pops into the picture. The ocean even begins to look a little more like "inshore" vs. the "deep water" blue in the first pic. I would imagine that adding just a little more yellow would bring the colors as close to life as would ever be possible, at least for this amateur!

 

The last thing to figure out is the darkened rear radiator area. Can't tell, when blowing up the image, whether the doors might have been removed (unlikely in these cold climes). I'm guessing more likely, that the doors would have been closed, unless while pushing the plane during combat. Part of the darkness seems to be shade.  Also, that possibly the front edge of the doors are inset a bit when closed? I may never know.

 

Anyway, thanks for everyone's contribution to the collective wisdom pool.

 

Ed

 

 

[Antti_K]

11 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

 

There is zero chance of a P-38 going fast enough in level flight at low level for that to be the case, especially on one engine as seen in TheRealMr Ed's pic above!

 

Hello Work In Progress,

You are absolutely right! I wasn't actually speaking about these photographs when I mentioned the Shock Wave. I responded to JWM who thought, that a dark visible line above a wing he has seen while traveling aboard an airliner, is a boundary between laminar and turbulent flow which it isn't. If you want see that you must attach wool tufs on to the wing. A Shock Wave forming up is visible to the eye.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough

 

Best Regards,

Antti

 

[noelh]

I'd buy into the wet theory if it wasn't for the photo of 'itsy bitsy' particularly around the nearside fin where there's straight edges appear to be applied to avoid over painting the serial. Yes indeed the nature of the airflow over an aerodynamic surface means that moisture will remain undisturbed because the airflow simply doesn't touch the surface. I had that problem in an aircraft I flew when it rained. The rain would hit the windscreen which was a lifting surface. The outside view was obscured because the airflow didn't blow away the drops so landing was a bit tense in a rainstorm.  No wipers.

But that only applies to surfaces that produce lift. Look at the photos, if it was only the wings and tailplane you could make the case and frankly even then there would be a certain symmetry. No straight edges either. To me it's a colour difference. Thequestion is whether it's two shades of OD or something else.