71chally Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) yes the B(I).8 kit Bill. I realised after that I couldn't write a post like that without backing it up, so I'm now in the process of making the tailplane correction for the Airfix kit, so far easier than I thought! The main issue with the tailplane really needs to be understood to correct it. The Canberra tailplane has a dihedral (John, how much?) all the way to the fuselage join. Airfix have made the stub part on the fuselage level (ie no dihedral), this in effect raises the upper tailplane surface join position too high on the fuselage, even though the main mounting slots and the tailplane are pretty much in the right position. By removing that stub you eradicate that issue. Edited February 8, 2017 by 71chally 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stever219 Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 71Chally your scheme for improving the tail plane is very close to the one that I've come up with, but not yet implemented, on my 1/48th kits. Now all I need to do is relocate the parts and start cementing. Bill, if you can find a copy of the late Mike Keep's drawings from Aviation News they should suffice for panel lines, etc. their biggest failure, if you can call it that, is that they are now a bit long in the tooth and don't cover the final 15 years or more of the type's development and service, particularly the Mk. 9, so beware of the aerial fits etc. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Re: the vortex generators... I'd try and find a piece of Ø1.5 half round styrene rod - run a file along the top of the arc lengthwise to flatten it off a touch. Then use a sharp blade to slice off little thin slices to create the individual vortex generators. Then I'd get someone else to glue them in place for me ! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) Tail plane info, This is part of my PR.9 AP library I'm off to take a look at the wing panels now, more soon. John Edited February 8, 2017 by canberra kid "now" not no :) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) Thanks John, I had 10 degrees in my mind, but couldn't find it to confirm. Bill I've been doing a photo build of this Airfix tailplane malarkey this afternoon, would you want to see it or are you proceeding with the kit as it is? Having spent time on it now I'm noticing that the very rear fuselage is wrong, hard to say where, but just doesn't look right somehow. Also I've just seen reference to John Adams/ Aerclub being consulted with development of the Xtrakit Canberra, that would explain the nice detail and if true trust the panel lines on that kit. Edited February 8, 2017 by 71chally 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 A quick look over the wings, the good news, is they are both wrong, there is a lot of fiction involved in the paneling, some of them fall right(ish) one of the trickiest is on the airfix wing there is a fictitious panel line that passes through the VG's! The access panels on the Airfix wing are ok as far as I can tell although the ones on the tips may be on the big side? they have omitted some so what the criteria was for the ones they chose to represent I don't know. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 7 minutes ago, 71chally said: Also I've just seen reference to John Adams/ Aerclub being consulted with development of the Xtrakit Canberra, that would explain the nice detail and if true trust the panel lines on that kit. John is without doubt a star in the modeling world, but unless he had/has diferant reference to me or his information was misinterpreted? whatever it does not agree with what I see. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Tip tanks, all Canberra tip tanks are the same, the difference with the ones on the PR.9 is they are fitted with an adaptor which compensates for the different contour of the wing at that point. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 3 hours ago, 71chally said: The Canberra tailplane has a dihedral (John, how much?) all the way to the fuselage join. Airfix have made the stub part on the fuselage level (ie no dihedral), this in effect raises the upper tailplane surface join position too high on the fuselage, even though the main mounting slots and the tailplane are pretty much in the right position. By removing that stub you eradicate that issue. I came to the same conclusion a couple of hours ago when I assembled the port tailplane and then test fitted it to the fuselage. I thought, how odd - the tailplane root fairing has no dihedral, but the tailplane has a significant amount. It looks really strange, and I suspect maybe the kit was engineered this way in order to get the fuselage out of the tool. Anyway, I thought the same as you, and will most likely give it a try. 2 hours ago, hendie said: Re: the vortex generators... I'd try and find a piece of Ø1.5 half round styrene rod - run a file along the top of the arc lengthwise to flatten it off a touch. Then use a sharp blade to slice off little thin slices to create the individual vortex generators. Then I'd get someone else to glue them in place for me ! Sounds similar to what I did. I used 0.4 mm thick styrene strips, and used my punch and die set to take "bites" out of the edge. The resulting pieces look like a bit less than half a circle. They are about 1.5 mm long, reasonably close in scale to John's figure of 4 inches. The gluing was not too difficult, as the edge of the styrene strip is quite straight and true. I'll get a picture shortly. 50 minutes ago, canberra kid said: Tail plane info, <snip> This is part of my PR.9 AP library I'm off to take a look at the wing panels now, more soon. Great stuff, John. Thanks for posting the photos and diagrams. Nice library, too - did the MD of English Electric know you absconded with all of that? 21 minutes ago, 71chally said: Bill I've been doing a photo build of this Airfix tailplane malarkey this afternoon, would you want to see it or are you proceeding with the kit as it is? Having spent time on it now I'm noticing that the very rear fuselage is wrong, hard to say where, but just doesn't look right somehow. Hey, why not start a build of the Airfix kit? We can hav Bill e dueling WIPs. I think I'll follow the path of removing the tailplane root from the fuselage and rebuilding it on the tailplane itself. Can't look any worse than it does now, right? OK, we're four pages into this build and I haven't built anything yet. I'd best get to work! Cheers, 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 17 minutes ago, canberra kid said: A quick look over the wings, the good news, is they are both wrong, there is a lot of fiction involved in the paneling, some of them fall right(ish) one of the trickiest is on the airfix wing there is a fictitious panel line that passes through the VG's! The access panels on the Airfix wing are ok as far as I can tell although the ones on the tips may be on the big side? they have omitted some so what the criteria was for the ones they chose to represent I don't know. Somehow this doesn't surprise me! 6 minutes ago, canberra kid said: Tip tanks, all Canberra tip tanks are the same, the difference with the ones on the PR.9 is they are fitted with an adaptor which compensates for the different contour of the wing at that point. Can't remember where I read that about the B(I).8 tanks - some Internet review no doubt. Never trust what you read on the net! OK, I'll cross that off my list of issues. Wish they were all that easy to fix! Cheers, Bill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 6 minutes ago, Navy Bird said: Hey, why not start a build of the Airfix kit? We can hav Bill e dueling WIPs. Got too many things on the bench and no time to build at the mo, however been wanting to do this tailplane thing for a while now, so cracked open the kit. Will do the mod and save it for another day! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 Spontaneous Vortex Generation The punch and die set, a styrene strip with a few nibbles, and a bunch of tiny thingamabobs: And my test piece with a few glued in place: I found that the separation between blades was limited by the tweezers I was using to hold the blade whilst placing on the surface. At 0.4 mm thick, I think the blades are not thin enough. It's also not that easy to get them all lined up, and if one is out of line it's readily apparent (note the last blade in line). The technique is worthy of further exploration though. This gives you an idea of the scale: This also gives you a sense of an issue that I think the Xtrakit has - the wing is flat. From John's diagram above, the outer section of the wing should have an additional two degrees of dihedral. The Airfix wing, on the other had, clearly has a different amount of dihedral between the inboard and outer sections of the wing. Cheers, Bill 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBaron Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Custom vortex generators! The stakes. You have just raised them. Tony 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martian Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Those generators look like they will do the job nicely! Martian 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Feet up New can of fizzy Galereux lager unfizzing Looks back a passage or two (or ...) Ah yes, real innovatoriness going on and Canberra's erstwhile mysteries being unveiled before me Relaxxxxx Great start Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Navy Bird said: It's also not that easy to get them all lined up, and if one is out of line it's readily apparent (note the last blade in line). Instead of a pencil line Bill, could you use a piece of thickish tape (do you have Dymo tape over there?) as the forward demarcation and butt them up against it? Neat way of actually producing the little blighters though! Keith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 I see an opportunity here Bill buys dymo tape Bill makes a line of perfect VGs on an Airfix wing upper section (make that two, port and starbucks) and moulds off it Bill casts said line on a wing (or two) Bill sells said wing portions Bill becomes the Cranberry wing guru for a price They look very promising Bill (do you need a UK agent?) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Have you seen these? They could be useful references.... Ian 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme H Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Might be a bit late to be helpful, but many years ago a friend of mine used a small threaded bolt ground in half so it would lay flat on the surface, and give the spacing as well 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Martin Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 For further reading .... specific PR.9 articles... PM English Electric Canberra PR9 World Air Power Journal 00031 article 39 English Electric Canberra PR9 IAPA Report 0009 photos 39 sqn English Electric Canberra PR9 Aviation News 08 07 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Aviation News 11 02 article 39 sqn English Electric Canberra PR9 Air Pictorial 195509 ident drawing English Electric Canberra PR9 Flying Review 196108 article English Electric Canberra PR9 Plastic Aircraft Models 197908 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Le Moniteur de L'Aeronautique 197908 article Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Air International 197909 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 197910 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Plastic Aircraft Models 197910 article Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Airfix 198001 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 IPMS UK 198001 photos English Electric Canberra PR9 Aircraft Illustrated 198002 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Plastic Aircraft Models 198004 article photos English Electric Canberra PR9 Airfix 198004 letter folding nose English Electric Canberra PR9 Aircraft Illustrated 198104 article English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Models 198108 article 39 sqn colour photos English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Models 198110 letter dif English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Models 198612 article 39 sqn English Electric Canberra PR9 Air International 198805 krcm C Scale72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Models 199505 article English Electric Canberra PR9 RAF Yearbook 1996 article 1 PRU English Electric Canberra PR9 RAF Yearbook 1997 article 1 PRU English Electric Canberra PR9 RAF Yearbook 2006 article English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 200806 article xtr 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aviation Modeller 200808 V14 #8 kit review Airfix 48 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 200905 letter 200908 Afghanistan English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 200905 article Airfix 48 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 200908 article Afghanistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 17 hours ago, keefr22 said: Instead of a pencil line Bill, could you use a piece of thickish tape (do you have Dymo tape over there?) as the forward demarcation and butt them up against it? Neat way of actually producing the little blighters though! Thanks, Keith. I have a ton (and a half) of Dymo tape on the workbench. I used a pencil line just for my quickie test. I would most definitely use something more solid if I were doing the actual wing. Which I suspect I will do at some point - I'll bludgeon my way through the Airfix kit, and return to the Xtrakit in the future. I really like some of the photos I've found of the shiny silver Cranberry 9s... 16 hours ago, perdu said: I see an opportunity here Bill buys dymo tape Bill makes a line of perfect VGs on an Airfix wing upper section (make that two, port and starbucks) and moulds off it Bill casts said line on a wing (or two) Bill sells said wing portions Bill becomes the Cranberry wing guru for a price They look very promising Bill (do you need a UK agent?) Oh dear, I don't know what to say. I am collaborating with a fellow club member on resin casting some easy parts (the F-111B radome). Doing an entire Cranberry wing is another story. If I wanted to do that, I would most certainly make the vortex generators out of brass - those styrene guys are too thick. Or maybe thinner plastic if I can find some. And I'll give you right of first refusal to be my UK agent when I start up the global distribution chain. 13 hours ago, limeypilot said: Have you seen these? They could be useful references... <snip> Ian Thanks! I stumbled across the first one the other day, but hadn't seen the second. Lots of little details, isn't there? How do I get myself into these things? 13 hours ago, Graeme H said: Might be a bit late to be helpful, but many years ago a friend of mine used a small threaded bolt ground in half so it would lay flat on the surface, and give the spacing as well Interesting idea...I counted the vortex generators on the Airfix kit and got 33 per wing. I have no idea if that's true or not. The blades are spread out over 48 mm. This gives a 1.5 mm spacing - I imagine that there is a fairly common metric thread equivalent for that. The vortex generators on the Airfix kit are also at an angle to the airflow, with the front of each blade closer to the wing root. I'd estimate about 30 degrees off the longitudinal axis, but that's just a guess. @canberra kid, does any of that sound correct? 7 hours ago, Patrick Martin said: For further reading .... specific PR.9 articles... PM English Electric Canberra PR9 World Air Power Journal 00031 article 39 English Electric Canberra PR9 IAPA Report 0009 photos 39 sqn English Electric Canberra PR9 Aviation News 08 07 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Aviation News 11 02 article 39 sqn English Electric Canberra PR9 Air Pictorial 195509 ident drawing English Electric Canberra PR9 Flying Review 196108 article English Electric Canberra PR9 Plastic Aircraft Models 197908 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Le Moniteur de L'Aeronautique 197908 article Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Air International 197909 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 197910 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Plastic Aircraft Models 197910 article Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Airfix 198001 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 IPMS UK 198001 photos English Electric Canberra PR9 Aircraft Illustrated 198002 kit review Matchbox 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Plastic Aircraft Models 198004 article photos English Electric Canberra PR9 Airfix 198004 letter folding nose English Electric Canberra PR9 Aircraft Illustrated 198104 article English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Models 198108 article 39 sqn colour photos English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Models 198110 letter dif English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Models 198612 article 39 sqn English Electric Canberra PR9 Air International 198805 krcm C Scale72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Models 199505 article English Electric Canberra PR9 RAF Yearbook 1996 article 1 PRU English Electric Canberra PR9 RAF Yearbook 1997 article 1 PRU English Electric Canberra PR9 RAF Yearbook 2006 article English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 200806 article xtr 72 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aviation Modeller 200808 V14 #8 kit review Airfix 48 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 200905 letter 200908 Afghanistan English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 200905 article Airfix 48 English Electric Canberra PR9 Scale Aircraft Modelling 200908 article Afghanistan Wow, comprehensive list. Thanks! Cheers, Bill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Interesting idea...I counted the vortex generators on the Airfix kit and got 33 per wing. I have no idea if that's true or not. The blades are spread out over 48 mm. This gives a 1.5 mm spacing - I imagine that there is a fairly common metric thread equivalent for that. The vortex generators on the Airfix kit are also at an angle to the airflow, with the front of each blade closer to the wing root. I'd estimate about 30 degrees off the longitudinal axis, but that's just a guess. @canberra kid, does any of that sound correct? I'll take a look when I get home Bill, stay tuned! You are correct 33 per wing is right. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 @Navy Bird & @stever219 , I've just completed the Aitrfix tailplane correction, bit rough n ready, can be seen here, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Right then Bill, back Vortex Generators measurements, I've got the definitive info, I hope you can make it out it's a word document and the only way I could think of posting was a screen shot. AS for the angels does this help at all? John 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 On 2/9/2017 at 14:10, canberra kid said: Right then Bill, back Vortex Generators measurements, I've got the definitive info, I hope you can make it out it's a word document and the only way I could think of posting was a screen shot. <snip> Quote AS for the angels does this help at all? John Perfect! This will really come in handy when I get around to building the Xtrakit model. Can I assume that the blades not really rounded on top then? What's different about #25? I think I'd still make them all the same in 1:72 scale! Cheers, Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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