Sanding decals to remove carrier film/thickness

[mirageiv]

Hi guys

 

I'm looking for a few pointers on the above if anyone could lend a hand. My normal decal work usually is pretty standard where I simply make sure to have a high gloss surface, use Microsol and sometimes cutting along panel lines to make sure the decals look painted on as much as possible, then another clear layer over the top before weathering. I've found these standard ways just fine for thin decals, the problem comes when decals have a noticeable thickness when observed at differing angles.

 

I have heard about people sanding or polishing the decal and blending it into the surface. How exactly do you go about this? I've avoided it really as I feared I would destroy the decal. I have a few questions about it:

 

Do you need to use a very strong decal softener so it really melts the decal into the surface? So sanding it doesn't rip/tear the edges off? 

 

Do you sand/polish the decal before or after the next gloss layer? I would assume after as the clear could help protect the decal.

 

What type of abrasive do you use, such as what grain of sandpaper or micro mesh?  Or could you use Tamiya polish? 

 

Do you sand over the whole decal or just the edges to blend in the step? Not sure if you would damage the colour print of the decal before you remove the step if sanding over the whole thing.

 

For the acrylic clear layer I can only think of using Future or Tamiya x-22 from my shelf, I know you can sand them well. I have tried the new Gauzy clear and Aqua gloss but I found you cannot sand them properly, they start to peel. Do you need to add a lot of gloss for the sanding process? Maybe a problem for kits with very fine panel details.

 

For some reason I have a knack of picking subjects where the decals, aftermarket or otherwise, seem to be on the thicker side so any pointers on how to solve this would be grand!

 

Thanks for reading and any help,

 

David

Edited January 21, 2017 by mirageiv

[Steve Noble]

I can only speak from a car modellers point of view. But the only way I've found to eliminate that 'step' that you get on thicker decals is to build up several layers of clear coat until you literally bury the decals in clear. Then you can sand and polish the clear without harming the decals surface. I've never attempted to sand the actual decals surface, but I would imagine that without the protection offered by the clear coats it would result in damage? 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Steve Noble

[little-cars]

I'd agree with Steve on that.  Decal setting solutions look to be the other part of the problem.  

 

Micro SOl and SET are used together, one softens the decal, the other is a surface wetting agent and helps to draw the decals into any panel lines etc..

 

If Sol/set aren't working there are other decal softeners that you can try.  Solvaset is good, but not readily available in the UK. 

 

DACO produce three decal setting/softeners. Green-Mild just a bit stronger than Sol.Set. Orange is for tougher decals and Red is strong.

With red you paint the solution on, nothing happens, paint it again, then the decal will soften and relax onto the model. Great for compound curves etc..   I think we are the only people importing this into the UK at the moment.

http://www.modellingtools.co.uk/decal-setting-solutions-86-c.asp

 

Paul

[Mike]

I did this on my Mig-31 build, as well as a few others, and if you choose the right stuff you can make the edges of the carrier film disappear with some effort.  Clearly, the easiest way would be to get some of the new Wet Transfers that the likes of HGW do, which have no carrier film after you remove it, but assuming you don't have these, it's a case of applying spot coats of gloss varnish over the areas, being careful not to overdo it and cause puddles or runs.  Once the varnish is dry, wet-sand it with a fine sanding stick (not sponge, as the sponge hugs the contours & softens the step, rather then obliterates it).  Go carefully, checking your work as you do, and stop when you think you're getting close.  Re-coat and repeat until you're happy.  It takes a lot of effort, but the reward is a more realistic looking model

 

 

As to the varnishes to use, I can speak for two that work, and one that doesn't.  Klear works beautifully, and Aqua Gloss does too, but you need to leave it a little longer.  Gauzy, although a stupendously good gloss varnish, does not have the adhesion and other attributes to sand well, tending to crack off in chunks.  I found this out when I was hiding the decal on my Sith Infiltrator's stand, and almost lost the decal in the process.  I switched to Klear, and that worked nicely in the end.

 

 

 

HTH

 

Edit: Typos.  My fingers are misbehaving lately

[mirageiv]

Thank you Steve, Paul and Mike. Great replies, very helpful.

 

Paul- Just the other day I was looking at getting the DACO softener from your site and will do in the near future. I have lots of DACO/Astra Starfighter decal sheets that do not respond overly well to Microsol so I think their strong home brew softener should be the answer before I blend them in.  I guess I'll also get some Microset, for the two part process. 

 

Mike- Great explanation, I will give it a good go on a spare model when I can and find the right balance of Klear and sanding technique. I remember you doing it on your Mig build and it does really make the difference, they look flawless. I agree with the Gauzy stuff, great no fuss gloss bar for heavy sanding. Though my experience with sanding Alclad Aqua gloss was strange, I could polish it with micro mesh over paint just fine. However when I was trying to blend a canopy in (having been dipped in aqua gloss and let dry for a few weeks) it did peel and flake like Gauzy when heavily sanded, but I will use original Klear/Future imported from the USA for future canopies to avoid this. Great to have many options these days!

 

Top stuff guys, look forward to trying it out in the future!

 

Many thanks,

 

David.

Edited January 22, 2017 by mirageiv

[Johnny_K]

I have the same problem with decals from Hasegawa. The following picture is their 1/48 scale F-104. Notice the carrier film on the letters USAF. Note how thick the film is. To make matters worse, the decals have a matt finish. I applied the decal in a puddle of Future, so I know that the problem is not silvering. I cannot paint the plane in a clear gloss because the plane is covered in Bare Metal Foil.  Any thoughts?

 

[Mike]

The quickest solution would be to use paint masks.  You can get those for generic US codes now, I'm almost certain.  I'd be interested to see whether gloss coats over the top would help though

[Johnny_K]

I'm going to try painting the decals with gloss coats. I'll try lacquer clear, acrylic clear and Future on a test model before I paint the F-104.

[Mike]

If you could post back on how successful it was, I'm sure it'd be a great help to anyone finding themselves with the same dilemma in the future

[colin]

22 hours ago, Johnny_K said:

I have the same problem with decals from Hasegawa. The following picture is their 1/48 scale F-104. Notice the carrier film on the letters USAF. Note how thick the film is. To make matters worse, the decals have a matt finish. I applied the decal in a puddle of Future, so I know that the problem is not silvering. I cannot paint the plane in a clear gloss because the plane is covered in Bare Metal Foil.  Any thoughts?

 

I tend to cut the decal as close to the letters as possible and use a new scaple to cut out the inner parts of the letters.Or as Mike says paint masks

[Johnny_K]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

If you could post back on how successful it was, I'm sure it'd be a great help to anyone finding themselves with the same dilemma in the future

Following is a photo of the results. Not promising.

 

 

All these decals are on Bare Metal Foil. The bottom decal was painted in multiple coats of clear lacquer. The middle decal was painted in clear acrylic. The top decal was rubbed with Novis #2 polishing compound. The big problem with the bottom and middle decal is that the clear paint ruined the appearance of the BMF. The rubbing compound on the top decal  did not solve the problem. I think that the film on the Hasegawa decals is so thick that it is no longer transparent. It tends to be a bit milky. I will need to either trim around each letter (huge PITA),  find a different set of decals, or try masks.

 

John

 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Johnny_K

[Areos]

Hi everybody,

 

I remember an article in a modeling magazine where the author, once the decal was settled, was rubbing it smoothly with White Spirit on a q tip to remove the carrier. Quite tricky but very efficient.

 

The example was the skull and bones on the tail of a VF-103 F14.

 

I'll try to dig in my archives

 

Nicolas

[Johnny_K]

Is White Spirit the same as Mineral Spirit? I have some of that.

[Johnny_K]

Here is the link for removing carrier film:

 

http://www.florymodels.co.uk/today/2014/12/12/Christmas-present-number-4-free-to-watch-o-in-part.html

 

I will give it a try today.

 

John

[Areos]

On 23/01/2017 at 11:05 PM, Johnny_K said:

Is White Spirit the same as Mineral Spirit? I have some of that.

 

 

Sorry for the late answer: yes it is the same.

 

Nicolas

[Harry Lime]

Johnny_K,

 

I read somewhere (may have been on Britmodeller) that the key to using Tamiya/Hasegawa decals successfully is very hot water, the hotter the better. On top of this, using Mr Mark Setter and Softer will aid in getting a good finish as they have been designed to be used with the thicker decals of the aforementioned manufacturers. You apply the slightly milky Setter first, place decal, then add the clear Softer. Having tried this with a few smaller stencil decals and a few IP ones, I have certainly not had any silvering issues at all. However, I have not tried it on bigger decals yet.

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

[planehazza]

I've had problems with Tamiya decals on my last model; they simply do not like to stick and therefore leave a silvery matt sheen and a noticeable step.  My gloss was perhaps not perfect either however.  On this current model, I have TwoBobs, printed by microscale, but I've been told a lot of them are thick so that the white works well on the black areas.  I think I'll be making sure to give the model a good heavy gloss before decals, then another heavy gloss after decals so I can sand the raised edges away.  My concern here is filling the recessed details and thus making a wash unusable.

[Steve Noble]

Many kit decals are poor, not all, just some. I mainly build car and motorcycle model kits. If I know that the decals are poor in the kit, I will always seek out aftermarket replacements, wherever possible. If this is not an option, I always use the kit decals but make sure the surface has a really good finish/gloss to it. Usually this will eliminate most silvering issues. Use of a good decal setter will also help, Mr Mark Setter, Microsol and Daco being my favourites. Thick edges are a problem. As I said in my previous post, applying plenty of clear coat and then polishing back is the usual way I deal with this. Never tried to remove the carrier film with white spirit, wasn't aware you could even do that. I'll have to try this on a scrap model piece first..