impromptu: All suggestions are wellcome

[Badder]

Hi Cambridge.

The herons...The Idea is a good one, except they look like European herons. You need to check that there are similarly plumaged herons in Asia. (I'm an expert on European birds, but not Asian ones, so I can't tell you without googling)

Shame about the grass you've received being too short, but it looks like the dusters fibres will do nicely.

 

Here's how I'd make a 'bunch' of rice:

Work out how long you want your rice to be.

Grab a bunch of fibres on your duster and tie a length of cotton around them, like a noose.

Slide the noose up or down the fibres to the length you require. You want the noose to be positioned a 'rice length' from the tip of the fibres.

Pull the noose tight.

Snip the bunch off just below the cotton.

Dip the noose end of the bunch in medium CA (I'd make sure the noose was CA'd as well)

When dry, snip away at the tips, making the lengths slightly uneven.

Spray green. (You are better off spraying/painting bunches of grass/rice etc at this stage rather than trying to colour it when it's loose, or fixed in the ground)

 

I'm not sure how good that fake water is, but if it's really runny I'd stick the rice into the ground first then pour the water on. You'll probably have to pour several layers, letting each one dry completely before you pour the next. You may need to tease the water into the bunches of rice with a toothpick or similar so you don't get 'dimples' around the rice, but do that straight away before a 'skin' forms on the liquid.

 

As you say your grass is only 3mm long, I assume it's all loose and jumbled up in a bag? It sounds to me like you've bought a bag of pre-cut 'static grass' which is applied to a diorama using an electronic 'static grass applicator'. I have a homemade one because the shop ones are way too expensive. Mine cost me £5 and took an hour or so to make. I've seen ones advertised on line that cost near £100 !!

You could maybe make your own applicator... there are videos of how to make them on line.

Failing that I'd say that unfortunately you've probably wasted your money on the grass, UNLESS you plant each single stalk one by one??????

I suppose you could somehow make bunches in a similar way to the rice, but you'd need tiny fingers and a lot of patience!!!

 

Still, what you're doing looks great to me and I look forward to seeing your progress.

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

 

[cambridge]

so the base sanded and painted

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cambridge]

1 hour ago, Badder said:

Hi Cambridge.

The herons...The Idea is a good one, except they look like European herons. You need to check that there are similarly plumaged herons in Asia. (I'm an expert on European birds, but not Asian ones, so I can't tell you without googling)

 

Good suggestion. Well, i've actually been to Japan many years ago, i've seen an heron in Kyoto and took a couple of pictures of it and it's basically the same bird i can also see here in my city in italy. Beautiful animals by the way, i love how elegant henrons look. 

 

 

Quote

Shame about the grass you've received being too short, but it looks like the dusters fibres will do nicely.

 

Yeah, i think the grass will still be good to use on the banks and in the other diorama i'm doing. Actually i think it would be a good one for the other diorama wich is set in Tunisia. 

But for this diorama i should paint it more green, what if i put it in a little bag and spray it with airbrush? will I make a mess or would it work?

 

Quote

 

Here's how I'd make a 'bunch' of rice:

Work out how long you want your rice to be.

Grab a bunch of fibres on your duster and tie a length of cotton around them, like a noose.

Slide the noose up or down the fibres to the length you require. You want the noose to be positioned a 'rice length' from the tip of the fibres.

Pull the noose tight.

Snip the bunch off just below the cotton.

Dip the noose end of the bunch in medium CA (I'd make sure the noose was CA'd as well)

When dry, snip away at the tips, making the lengths slightly uneven.

Spray green. (You are better off spraying/painting bunches of grass/rice etc at this stage rather than trying to colour it when it's loose, or fixed in the ground)

 

seem a fairly good technique i'll surely give it a try and report on the result. It will be boring as hell, i think it will require like a matrix of plants 5mm each from one another, the base is 20x20cm and 30% of it will probably be covered in plants, If the maths is done right it will be about 500 plants. I need to find a way to make less of them or i'll go crazy.

 

Quote

 

I'm not sure how good that fake water is, but if it's really runny I'd stick the rice into the ground first then pour the water on. You'll probably have to pour several layers, letting each one dry completely before you pour the next. You may need to tease the water into the bunches of rice with a toothpick or similar so you don't get 'dimples' around the rice, but do that straight away before a 'skin' forms on the liquid.

 

i have no clue what the final consistency it will be, if it will be rubbery or hard, i think it will be rock hard. I was planning to pour a 1st layer of that like 5mm deep, wait till it's hard and drill it. Than put the plant in the holes and than pour a second layer. I was planning to drop some pigments of muddy color in the first layer of water, the deep one, than use pure product in the next layers in order to have a gradient. The product itself should be cristal clear. 

 

Quote

As you say your grass is only 3mm long, I assume it's all loose and jumbled up in a bag? It sounds to me like you've bought a bag of pre-cut 'static grass' which is applied to a diorama using an electronic 'static grass applicator'. I have a homemade one because the shop ones are way too expensive. Mine cost me £5 and took an hour or so to make. I've seen ones advertised on line that cost near £100 !!

You could maybe make your own applicator... there are videos of how to make them on line.

 

oh yes, i have an instect buzzer and i'm aware about that, i was planning to make a DIY applicator like you suggest.

 

Quote

Still, what you're doing looks great to me and I look forward to seeing your progress.

Rearguards,

Badder

 

thx you very much, I appreciate your suggestions

Edited January 25, 2017 by cambridge

[Badder]

2 hours ago, cambridge said:

i have no clue what the final consistency it will be, if it will be rubbery or hard, i think it will be rock hard. I was planning to pour a 1st layer of that like 5mm deep, wait till it's hard and drill it. Than put the plant in the holes and than pour a second layer. I was planning to drop some pigments of muddy color in the first layer of water, the deep one, than use pure product in the next layers in order to have a gradient. The product itself should be cristal clear. 

 

Hi Cambridge,

That mud looks excellent. Better than coffee!

I don't think drilling holes into the solidified water is the best way. Firstly the holes will refract light differently and you'll be able to see them. Secondly you'll also have problems with the next layer not penetrating down the hole, and you'll get air bubbles. And thirdly, that's a lot of drilling!

 

Personally, I'd have made the bunches of rice and stuck them into the mud while the mud was still wet.  You could put a skim of plaster over what you've already done and plant them in that? Otherwise you could make blobs of PVA all over the paddy field and stick the rice in when the PVA has just started to set. The e rice should stand up then. And of course the stuff dries clear so it won't show up after you've poured the water on.

Oh, btw, you can colour the plaster with acrylic paints when you are mixing it. It saves trying to paint it later and if you chip, crack or drill into the plaster it doesn't show up white.

 

Rearguards,

Badder

Edited January 25, 2017 by Badder

[Badder]

2 hours ago, cambridge said:

But for this diorama i should paint it more green, what if i put it in a little bag and spray it with airbrush? will I make a mess or would it work?

 

If it's 3mm long grass I wouldn't put it in a bag and use an airbrush. Any gap between the airbrush and the bag and that grass is going to blow out everywhere. And even if it doesn't chances are the damp paint will cause the grass to clump together.

I've painted grass once it's been 'planted' using a large soft brush and 'wet brushing' it. I used several different shades of green washes to add a bit of variety. If any green gets onto to the plaster below it may not be a problem if you want to represent a fully grassed area, but if you want brown earth underneath then you can wet brush the ground afterwards,

 

Have a look at my dio WIP 'Carry on Regardless', there I use fake water and grass.

Hope that helps,

Badder

 

[Grey Beema]

Many moons ago, when God was a boy I used to make the odd diorama, I would use sisal to make long grass. Same technique as Badders above.  I would colour or paint the sisal before planting by soaking a length of the string in the appropriate water colour (whatever was cheap and available) then leaving to dry, then untwist the string.

 

I wouldn't tie a noose but just dip the end of a small bunch of sisal into PVA then onto the base and leave to set spreading the clump slightly as it dried.  Once dry I would brush paint it again including any variation in colour..

 

I never did water, apart from a couple of puddles on a Waterloo diorama but do like the thought of a nice muddle Paddy field.

 

This is good work, please keep it up and show us how you get on..

[cambridge]

it's the first time i do something like this, are 4 boards of balsa wood glued on the 4 sides enough to seal it in order to pour the resin in? 

 

this is a video showing how to use the product.

tomorrow i may try to pour a very small amount in a bottle cap to try it:

to see how it works,

to see how it turns in the end,

to see if i can drill it, if i can stick the plants in it when wet,

if they stay in position or lean on their sides,

if i can add pigments to it without any problem,

i think it's the wisest thing to do. 

 

i think it would be extremely cool to paint an oil pouring effect like the plane is actually leaking, but i have no clue how to do it. 

i think i may pur the first layer of product, wait till it gets hard, paint over the hardened surface, than pour more layers of transparent product over it. that should give the impression of really being in the water. 

Do you think that using actual engine oil would make it look even more cool or that wouldn't work?

 

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by cambridge

[Badder]

When you pour the fake water, it's self levelling...almost....so it will flow down slopes etc. However, when it's on the flat you may need to draw it along with a spatula or 'push' it into nooks and crannies. And because it does flow, sometimes very slowly, when you 'plant'  rice in it, it will gradually move sideways and topple over as the 'water' flows. As I said before, you are better off fixing the rice into the ground before pouring the water.

As for 'tinting' the water with mud/oil etc, yes, you can use mix acrylic paints into it either before or after pouring. I wouldn't try painting straight onto a dried layer though. It would look silly.

Have a look at this link to the stuff I did with 'water'.

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Badder

[cambridge]

well, the box is done. I've glued it togheter for sealing it but it's easily removable with a cutter.

But before i start pouring water into it i still have to do things like:

- experimenting with water separately

- prepare the rice plants

- adding some more detail to the plane

 

the idea is to pour the water in one of the two pools beside the plane. If the final effect i obtain is good i'm gonna do the plane pool too, i've also added some flocks to the banks, i'm planning to blend them in with the airbrush later. That is not the grass i've bought by the way those are flocks i've also bought and are supposed to be used for making trees but they looked perfect for this. 

 

I should have added some details inside the fuselage aswell but that was something i should have done while building the plane but at that point it would have been pointless since i wasn't planning to cut it open, it's too narrow to do it now, 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by cambridge

[cambridge]

this may be actually very stupid or very clever: what if i use regular paper for the rice plants? I can cut 3/4 mm wide strips of paper, cut a fringe over that in order to obtain like 7/8 blades, than roll it over and paint it.

that would make the process pretty fast ( i can make a plant in less than 10 seconds ), less messy ( no need to glue, use different material, it's all made in one piece ) and the final result wouldn't be that bad. here is a prototype ( not yet painted obviously )

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by cambridge

[fingers]

  Hi, lovely diorama evolving here. I think that the earth banks would have a foot worn path along the top and be more vegetation covered. And may I also give a vote for the sisal string, I've used it, to my own lowish standard, for stream side weeds and it works ok and being a natural product it has nice variation built in for free. As the rice is hand planted it would be in 'rough' rows so a freehand approach would work well, I would be inclined to pre drill the hole (seconds with an archimedes drill) then pop whatever plants in, also the bottom of the paddy fields would, I think, be fairly flat and not massively textured due to them spending at least part of their life as semi self levelling mud.

[cambridge]

i have to tell you i had no clue what sisal was, i mean i'm no english speaker and here sisal is the name of a betting agency   but now that i googled it i think it's quite a clever idea. i've just cut a piece and experimented with it, it could be even more quick and pratical than the paper idea and it will give the same final result. 

 

just color the sisal string green, cut 1cm long bits, stick it in the first layer of solidifying resin, than untwangle them, than pour the rest of the resin, than cut them the proper length.

that should do and that should be actually quite fast to make, thank you again for the tip. 

 

the banks in the other hand are just still a work in progress, i want to see how the rice field effect turns out, in order to decide their final look. If the field will look too much green i'll leave them brown, if the field look too much brown i'll add more green, i'll try to keep it balanced. i've just put those flocks there to see if they look good and to see if they stick to the base, and they do both i'm pleased to say. 

 

And for The bottom of the paddy fields actually i don't bother much, my idea is to pour a first layer of product and drop pigments in it in order to give it a muddy look and than add more see trough layers over it. 

so between that and the rice plants i don't think much of it will be visibile when the work is done. So i just gave it a general darker tone with some patch just to brake it, but i'm not much bothered by it honestly. 

the part behind the plane i'm also planning to lay there stomped rice plants in order to make it look like the plane ruined them, i think it will be fun to make. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by cambridge

[Badder]

Looking good Cambridge.

Rearguards,

Badder

[cambridge]

i'm testing right now the product in a bottle cap. It feels quite good, the nice thing is that if you drop some color in it you can obtain a very muddy 3d effect, is still see trough but you have this uneven distribution of pigments that produces a really swampy feeling. I think i can either mess up or produce a really cool looking leaking effect around the plane.

but plants put in it tend to fall on their side, so i have either:

-  to fix them on the base vertically one by one, 

- to create a support like a drilled table that keeps them vertical while the water is getting hard

- to drill the solidified water, but for that i still have to wait that it gets hard and see if it is possible. 

 

anyway i still think it costst way too much for this, the equivalent of a can of coke is like 15 bucks, it's 45 bucks a liter.  

i can see it used for special effects in puddles wet tracks and such, but for a sea diorama like the one shown in the previous video it ends up being way too expensive.

 

 

having an unlimited budget it would be extremely cool to use it to simulate air, since is so see trough. That way you could create incredible smoke effects like for burning wrecks and you can put there airplanes that actually look like they're really flying in the air without gimmicks like see trough stands or fish wires.

imagine a diorama of a tank being hit by a shell with pieces of metal flying around everywhere, the flame of the hit and so on, it would look like the movie matrix, how cool would that be? 

i hate that my mind is always three steps ahead of my wallet  

If you put it in a display glass box nobody would probably be able to see it. Only drawback, apart from the cost, is the final weight of the diorama. i wonder if somebody has ever tried it. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by cambridge

[Badder]

1 hour ago, cambridge said:

having an unlimited budget it would be extremely cool to use it to simulate air, since is so see trough. That way you could create incredible smoke effects like for burning wrecks and you can put there airplanes that actually look like they're really flying in the air without gimmicks like see trough stands or fish wires.

imagine a diorama of a tank being hit by a shell with pieces of metal flying around everywhere, the flame of the hit and so on, it would look like the movie matrix, how cool would that be? 

i hate that my mind is always three steps ahead of my wallet  

If you put it in a display glass box nobody would probably be able to see it. Only drawback, apart from the cost, is the final weight of the diorama. i wonder if somebody has ever tried it. 

 

Ignoring the cost and the weight of the thing, the problem would be air bubbles. Getting that liquid to flow around and fill in every single nook and cranny would be extremely difficult. It would also take a year to pour all the layers. If it COULD be done though, the results would be spectacular.ic

 

I've said all along you should plant the rice in the ground before pouring the water, but if you are set against that AND want to save a bit of money by using less of your fake water, how about drilling holes in a sheet of transparent plastic shaped to fit your fields, put the rice in the holes, fix the sheet raised above the ground, then pour the water over that?

Rearguards,

Badder

[cambridge]

i've done some experimenting and i've come with best looking solution ever for rice plants, and easy to do too.

 

 

simple as this. this looks even better than the duster solution cause hairs are more thick: 

- cut the tips.

- with a lighter i melt one extremity in order to glue them togheter and i flat it till is rubbery.

- i separate them on the other side than i use again the lighter to bend the extremities so it looks more natural. 

- i glue them with a drop of see trough glue that will just blend in when i pour the water 

 

and if i find a green brush or broom i don't even need to paint them  

Edited January 27, 2017 by cambridge

[cambridge]

so here is my source of rice ( i've used that for many years to clean my bicycle, time to buy a new one )  the green tint is perfect so i dont need to paint it. it looks more green in the pictures cause of HDR.

 

 

and here's what i've done so far. On the side the plants are vertical ( some have some removable putty to keep them togheter ) and behind the plane i'm placing them squashed to show the damage produced by the plane sliding in the rice field.

 

the horizontal plants are gonne be warped in order to look more realistic and more floating, they're just placeholders there just to see how many i need.

 

right behind the fuselage i'm planning to put no grass plants at all and just drop some of these blades floating on the surface, like they have been completely mowed. That makes less work for me and the scene more dramatic, also it's easyer to try to create that oily effect i was talkin about before. 

 

the process is quicker than i tought, thankfully. This could have been a nightmare but done this way i can make like 6 plants a minute,and they stick vertical quite on the spot. 

 

 

i'll than pour the water all around them. When all the water is there ill trim the excess of the plants and dress them to make them look more natural. 

i'm planning to pour the water starting from the main pool ( the one i'm doing now ) so i'm sure i won't finish the product in the middle of the work. I hope to pour a couple of layers during the weekend. 

Edited January 27, 2017 by cambridge

[Badder]

Looking good Cambridge. Have you any bits of fuselage/panels you can lay in the paddy before pouring water over it?

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

 

[cambridge]

5 hours ago, Badder said:

Looking good Cambridge. Have you any bits of fuselage/panels you can lay in the paddy before pouring water over it?

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

 

 

yes, i'll put there a couple of pieces and a landing gear for sure. 

here it is, grass is there. Last pool i'll make at the end. once i'm sure it is ok i'm gonna finally pour water in it. i'll do it in the day so i can keep it under check to see if it leaks or if anything goes wrong so hopefully i can fix it on the spot. 

 

than once the water is in place, i'll add some wet effect to the fuselage and i'll add some ground and dirt on the plane

finally i'll trim the rice to the right lenght and i'll decide if and how add more green flocks on the banks. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by cambridge

[Badder]

This is getting better and better. It's going to turn out fantastic, I'm sure.

 

Oh, I forgot about 'water' leaks. Yes, the stuff does find any tiny gap and dribble through. I'd check the corners of your frame and seal the joints if there are any gaps, and maybe run a line of PVA all along the contact between frame and mud..

Once you pour the water you're committed. If you find leaks afterwards it's probably best to block the leak on the OUTSIDE of the frame and keep checking. (I used modelling clay to block leaks on mine and adjusted it if the leak spread) You will use more water if it leaks, but if you try blocking the leak INSIDE the frame you'll obviously disturb the water and ruin its edge.

 

Good luck!

 

Rearguards,

Badder.

[cambridge]

4 hours ago, Badder said:

This is getting better and better. It's going to turn out fantastic, I'm sure.

 

Oh, I forgot about 'water' leaks. Yes, the stuff does find any tiny gap and dribble through. I'd check the corners of your frame and seal the joints if there are any gaps, and maybe run a line of PVA all along the contact between frame and mud..

Once you pour the water you're committed. If you find leaks afterwards it's probably best to block the leak on the OUTSIDE of the frame and keep checking. (I used modelling clay to block leaks on mine and adjusted it if the leak spread) You will use more water if it leaks, but if you try blocking the leak INSIDE the frame you'll obviously disturb the water and ruin its edge.

 

Good luck!

 

Rearguards,

Badder.

 

well i have watched it in backlight and there are definitely some leak spots in the edges. what is the best way to seal them? is it enough to pour pva on the edges to seal them? or is there some better trick?

[cambridge]

ok, i've sealed them.

I've now poured the first layer of water, mixed with ocra pigment to make it more muddy. apparently the tank is not leaking and the wood is not soaking.

The product flued very nicely in all the holes and around the objecs and plants, it should be around 10 hours to dry, so tomorrow i should be able to add a second layer if everything went well. that may be enough i'm not sure it will require a third one

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by cambridge

[cambridge]

i was thinking, this product might also be good for example if you want to do a tent, or a truck cloth cover, pouring a cloth in the resin, than put  it in it's position and than wait that it solidifies.

Do you think it would work? 

[Badder]

1 hour ago, cambridge said:

i was thinking, this product might also be good for example if you want to do a tent, or a truck cloth cover, pouring a cloth in the resin, than put  it in it's position and than wait that it solidifies.

Do you think it would work? 

A bit expensive methinks Cambridge, and there are easier ways. PVA does a good job of turning tissue paper into canvas/cloth. Incidentally, I used liquid latex to make a replica 'tarpaulin'. I just painted a couple of layers of latex over it then peeled it off when dry. Then I discovered that you could 'paint' the latex with CA and that made the latex set hard like a piece of plastic.

 

The water seems to be working well. I'm surprised you've not had any leaks. And I'm surprised it only takes 10hrs to cure. I may have to google it in English!

 

Rearguards,

Badder

[cambridge]

28 minutes ago, Badder said:

A bit expensive methinks Cambridge, and there are easier ways. PVA does a good job of turning tissue paper into canvas/cloth. Incidentally, I used liquid latex to make a replica 'tarpaulin'. I just painted a couple of layers of latex over it then peeled it off when dry. Then I discovered that you could 'paint' the latex with CA and that made the latex set hard like a piece of plastic.

 

The water seems to be working well. I'm surprised you've not had any leaks. And I'm surprised it only takes 10hrs to cure. I may have to google it in English!

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

to be precise, if i got it right, it says that after around 7 hours it turn solid enough to pour another layer over it but for a full complete solidification it suggest to wait 72 hours.

 

to be even more precise it says that it depends on many factors, among the others the quantity of the material used and it's surface/volume ratio. Basically the more you pour the more it react and warm up, the fastest the reaction. in my case i've poured very small quantity on a very wide surface, so all the heat gets dissipated and that makes the reaction take longer. it says not to pour more than 1.5 cm each time or it will produce too much heat and will ruin the product. 

 

the total quantity is 320 grams. I've poured an 18 grams of that and it filled like a couple of millimeters in the pool just to give an idea of the dimensions.  

on a first esteem, considering the other two pools togheter are probably a little bigger than this, and that it will probably require other 2 layers of fluid, i could probably end up using around 1/2 of the product. 

 

and yes, i'm quite surprised too it is not leaking  

 

the first impression is that the product is quite good and can produce great effects ( i just hope it is going to peel off from the wood, i think it would have been better to use plastic for the box but what is done is done ). i see no bubble formation even considering how caothic is the surface i've poured it on, and it can be colored.

but i still think it costs too much for a regular or abundant use. But if one is not modeling on a budget for what i can see at the moment i'll definitely suggest to try it if you can find it in your country.  

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by cambridge