Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)

[Roy vd M.]

The fifth vlog is ready. I'll first explain why I won't use my previous drawing... 

 

Simply put, because it had become too disorganised. I failed to divide the drawing into subassemblies and components. 

 

 

And then we finally start drawing the model! 

 

Until part of the shackle is finalised. 

 

 

The video is 3 minutes. Enjoy! 

 

 

[harveyb258]

Another superb vlog, Roy. 

 

Are you going to draw the entire car before starting the build, or draw and build each sub-assy as you go????

 

Cheers, H

[Roy vd M.]

Thanks Harvey. 

 

The entire car will be drawn before starting the build. I'll do this in order to prevent fitting problems from occurring during the build. Making corrections in the drawing alone will be easier than having to do them on the real parts as well. 

[Roy vd M.]

The vlogs as made thus far took a lot of my time. I won't continue on that path, as explained here. 

 

What do you guys think of my next, much more economic, attempt (1-minute video)? 

 

 

[harveyb258]

I like it Roy. I enjoyed the other 5 vlogs, too. 

I love the 3D drawing aspect of it all... it's fascinating watching it all come together.

 

Keep up the good work, Roy!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

It's a pity that you stop the vlogs on You Tube, Roy. I admit I myself had no time to watch them for now (ever too busy) and that I would prefer the same tutos in french, but I am well placed to understand your reasons, as we talked about in my thread... We both have a busy pro work, and few time for our hobby, we may regret it but it is so... 

Olivier

 

[NickD]

Hi Roy,

I'm sold - that's the speed I want to be able to generate realistic componentry - you will have the whole thing done in no time! LoL

 

ATB

 

Nick

[Roy vd M.]

On 12/30/2018 at 10:15 PM, harveyb258 said:

I like it Roy. I enjoyed the other 5 vlogs, too. 

I love the 3D drawing aspect of it all... it's fascinating watching it all come together.

 

Keep up the good work, Roy!

Thanks for the encouragement, I'm confident the massive reduction of editing time will keep me going. 

On 12/31/2018 at 7:23 AM, Olivier de St Raph said:

It's a pity that you stop the vlogs on You Tube, Roy. I admit I myself had no time to watch them for now (ever too busy) and that I would prefer the same tutos in french, but I am well placed to understand your reasons, as we talked about in my thread... We both have a busy pro work, and few time for our hobby, we may regret it but it is so... 

Olivier

 

The vlogs are not stopped Olivier, they will only have a keep-you-updated character, with less explanation. They are quite brief, only a few minutes each, so if you find the time I'd be pleased if you took a look. First things first though, you're right about that.   

On 12/31/2018 at 10:56 AM, NickD said:

I'm sold - that's the speed I want to be able to generate realistic componentry - you will have the whole thing done in no time! LoL

That's how easy Fusion 360 is (I wish... pff sometimes it is still very complex). 

 

 

On my 1/8th scale model I intend to implement functional braking, including drum brakes that are actuated by brake shoes with some sort of brake lining. The only thing I won't try to replicate is the mechanical servo, as I don't want to fit the model with a motor. But the plan is to have brake pedal pressing result into actuated drum brakes. 

 

I also would like the handbrake to be functional, so that I can have rotating wheels installed on the car which I'll be able to block so that the model won't roll whenever on a sloped surface. 

 

Finally I want to have a functional gas pedal-to-carburettor linkage. 

 

The last couple of days I spent starting the sorting and categorising all pictures and videos (defragmenting them) I have collected. As this is fairly boresome, at the same time I did research on all the linkages on the left side of the gearbox and engine. At first glance it looks like a daunting and complex assembly: 

 

 

 

But once the rods and arms are individualized and marked (I used Gimp for that), comparing with photos and videos, it becomes clear what is what: 

 

 

 

Let's watch this in detail. 

 

 

 

The light green rods are for the brake system. The left rod is actuated by the brake pedal (other side of the engine). It pulls the 'clutch' for the mechanical brake drum (=the wheel on the right side of the photo). That wheel is then driven by the propeller shaft, but only for a partly rotation. Through that rotation, the light green rod to the right is pulled. This energy is distributed to the four drum brakes of the car. 

 

The dark green rod is for the handbrake. 

 

The dark blue linkage is connected to the gas pedal, as well as a lever with a knob that arises above the gearbox body. I guess that lever is used to control the stationary RPM of the engine. 

 

I do not know what the light blue rod is for. It might be a gearbox support strut. 

 

Finally the olive coloured rods. They appear to be linked (only) to a lever situated next to the previously discussed stationary RPM-lever. The olive rods are connected to something at the engine side. I don't know what this is for. 

 

 

 

Here the dark blue linkage to the carburettor, as well as the olive rod. I don't know what this rod is connected to (=what the lever is used for). 

 

 

 

And finally the utmost connection to the carburettor. 

 

If any of you have any thoughts about the above, especially the items in bolt, I'd much welcome them. 

[harveyb258]

Another very informative post, Roy.

 

The olive rod looks to be connected with a small lever on the oil-pan. As this is situated below the oilpan breather tube, could it be a means of adjusting the sump oil pressure???

[Roy vd M.]

Thank you Harvey. That's very clever thinking and it could be the answer. 

 

I found a drawing in Pomeroy's book, made by Cresswell who had full access to a dismantled engine: 

 

 

Detail: 

 

 

Clicking those images will make them pop, slightly. 

 

I think I see an ever so tiny camshaft down there, with one single cam. Looks like a kind of valve...? Any ideas are welcome.

[parryj]

Could it be a secondary drain stop? It looks like it is right above a main oil drain. But it would appear to be higher then the crank oil level. Sorry, I'm rambling on here. Is this a dry or wet sump engine?

 

[PROPELLER]

I'm confused by that:

 

May be also an manual air intake adjustment of the compressor ? All the rest linkage only!

Dan.

[harveyb258]

Lovely drawings, Roy.

Where the oil pipe has been cut away, there looks to be a hole. As the flow and scavenge pumps are situated in this lowest part of the sump, I would suggest maybe a flow-regulator valve. Basically a stop-tap.

[NickD]

Roy,

Good to see you back. Fascinating and ambitious as always.

Happy New Year

Nick

[Schwarz-Brot]

The light blue one probably connected to something that is not part of the engine block, else it would still be connected. Or it had to be taken off to take the engine out. If that is the case you can try to find the place it connected to by drawing a circle around its starting point with the radius being the lenght of the light blue line. Whatever it was linked to would touch that circle.

[Roy vd M.]

The 'handbrake rod'

Quote

Peter van Dijk: [Summary: perhaps it's an anchor rod] Zou de lichtblauwe stang een ankerstang voor de rem bekrachtiger kunnen zijn ? (...) Ankerstang is een voorziening om een onderdeel te behoeden voor verdraaing op de montage plek zelf, dus extra bij de montage van het onderdeel zelf. 

Remklauwen (of de plaat waarop ze vast zitten) hebben ook vaak een ankerstang of beugel zodat de klauw niet mee gaat draaien zodra deze de remschijf vastgrijpt.

 

Quote

Model A Model: -could the pale blue line be a cable? a sprung cable to return the throttle to idle? (...) PS- The light blue line looks to connect to a "Pie slice" shaped belcrank?

 

Quote

Schwarz-Brot: The light blue one probably connected to something that is not part of the engine block, else it would still be connected. Or it had to be taken off to take the engine out. If that is the case you can try to find the place it connected to by drawing a circle around its starting point with the radius being the lenght of the light blue line. Whatever it was linked to would touch that circle.

 

The posable rod

Quote

Peter van Dijk: [Summary: lubrication regulation / priming of the engine] Die olijfkleurige stangen ? misschien een aansturing voor een apart in te schakelen smeerfunctie ?

Werd (of wordt) bij een motor soms ook de motorolie 'geprimed', als een primaire smering vooraf aan het starten van de motor ?

 

Quote

Peter van Dijk: Interessant dat mechaniek (dat via de "olijfkleurige stangen" wordt bediend). Oogt inderdaad als een handbediende klep (of ventiel?). Zo te zien lijkt het ook recht boven een aftap plug te zitten. Ook opvallend dat de klep in ruststand onder spanning staat gezien de stand van de nok. Vraag me dan ook af of de bediening is bedoeld om iets te openen of juist te sluiten...

 

Quote

Erwin: [Summary: lubrication control] Vroeg mij ook af of die klep iets kon openen of sluiten, voornamelijk omdat die blijkbaar door de bestuurder handmatig kon bediend worden. Het feit echter dat ie helemaal onderaan het carter zit doet mij denken aan een extra klep om meer olie te voorzien wanneer de motor zou draaien op hoge toeren zoals tijdens wedstrijden.

 

Achterliggend denken is iets wat ik mijn vader vroeger ooit heb horen vertellen over Skoda toen die wagens in de jaren '50-'60 meededen aan races. Blijkbaar hadden zij ergens een systeem ingebouwd dat de chauffeur in staat stelde alles te smeren door een druk op de knop en dit terwijl het voertuig nog reed. Dat spaarde toen enorm veel tijd tijdens de spits.

 

 

Quote

Coachke: [Summary: lubrication control] Roy wat ik er van maak is dat de motor een smering heeft aan de lagers van de krukas maar het kleppenmechanisme denkelijk niet ( denk aan de oude grote scheepsmotoren waar de machinist met een grote oliebarret de tuimelaars moest smeren ) daarom denk ik dat het een pomp bedient die voor de kopsmering bedoeld is 

Ik kan me nog herinneren dat mijn vader een Skoda had in de jaren 1965 en toen al een oud karretje was type weet ik niet meer en die had een vierde pedaal en die diende om alles te smeren men moest daar om de ………. km eens op duwen 
Dus dit is wel aanvaardbaar denk ik 
Ik denk niet dat ze in die tijd de technologie hadden om overal smeerleidingen in te gieten 
Ik weet nog dat er aan elke drijfstang lager een soort schepje zat , zoals aan het rad van een watermolen , en telkens de drijfstang onder kwam tijdens het draaien van de motor een schepje olie mee omhoog bracht en dat ging dus zo snel dat de olie er uitvloog en zo alles smeerde dat noemde men toen " spatsmering "

Want als ik de doorsnede tekening goed bekijk zie ik gewoon leidingen liggen voor de smering hedendaagse motoren zijn die in het blok mee gegoten

 

Quote

Ron: [Summary: oil cooling / lubrication] Mijn idee zover het wat waard is. Als ik naar de laatste tekening kijk is het uiteraard een klep. En volgens mijn gedachtegang sluit en open hij een opening in die ronde buis, er zitten twee naast elkaar en de afgekorte word afgesloten. Het helaas niet te zien of bijde buizen met elkaar in verbinding staan. Misschien is het wel een soort van oliekoeling? Dit is misschien een beetje ver gezocht iets met smering voor de versnellingsbak.

 

Quote

Nicolas: [Summary: manual choke / primer / lubrication] Wat die stangen betreft: ergens moet er een manuele choke op zitten, en deze auto's hadden in de regel ook een manuele regeling voor de voorontsteking, maar degene die ik meestal zag waren draaiknoppen. Dus dat zou de hendel links in de cockpit kunnen zijn. Ik weet echter niet naar welke systemen we hier dan concreet aan het kijken zijn bij die twee hendels. Misschien zat er nog ergens een brandstofprimer op ofzo, of een uitgebreide chokeregeling? Mijn kennis van autotechniek gaat niet echt tot voor de oorlog...

 

Wat er ook wel eens op die heel oude grand prix auto's zit: mogelijkheden om iets qua smering te doen tijdens het rijden. Maar voor zover ik weet was dat eerder in de tweezitters en zo simpel als met een oliepulletje over de drijfketting gaan hangen. (...) Aangezien we in het carter zitten, iets met debiet of druk van de olie? Of mogelijkheid tot temperatuurregeling van de olie door met compartimenten te werken ofzo? Alledrie deze voorstellen tover ik gewoon uit mijn hoge hoed/duim; geen idee of ze ooit (met manuele regeling) op een auto toegepast zijn.

 

 

Quote

Bert Takken: [Summary: carter vent] Het ziet er uit als een manuele instelbare carterontluchting, afhankelijk van de temperatuur of belasting was deze klep in te stellen zodat de druk geregeld kon worden waarmee de olie omhoog gestuwd werd, althans dat is mijn theorie als ik de tekening zo zie.

 

Quote

Harveyb258: The olive rod looks to be connected with a small lever on the oil-pan. As this is situated below the oilpan breather tube, could it be a means of adjusting the sump oil pressure???

 

Quote

ParryJ: Could it be a secondary drain stop? It looks like it is right above a main oil drain. But it would appear to be higher then the crank oil level. Sorry, I'm rambling on here. Is this a dry or wet sump engine?

 

Quote

Harveyb258: Where the oil pipe has been cut away, there looks to be a hole. As the flow and scavenge pumps are situated in this lowest part of the sump, I would suggest maybe a flow-regulator valve. Basically a stop-tap.

 

Quote

Nortley: Manual adjustment for oil flow to the cooler?

 

Quote

Roger Zimmerman: Unfortunately, I cannot help a lot here as I never had a great interest to those years. What I see from the very nice drawings you published: almost everything can be done on a scale model because everything is mechanical (try to make working hydraulic brakes!). At that time, the ignition point could be manually modified; this could be one of the levers you don't know the usage.

Working only on the base of pictures is extremely difficult I was glad that, while doing the wood mockup for the body, I could visually compared it the the real car. Many corrections were needed after!

Egon: Hi Roy I think the valve in the buttom is for oilperssure, open at low rpm and cloused at high rpm for higher pressure, the other to the carb could be change of gas mixture at full speed, could this be it ?

 

Miscellaneous: carburettor connector

 

Quote

Propeller: May be also an manual air intake adjustment of the compressor ? All the rest linkage only!Dan.

 

---

 

To all: thank you very much for your reactions and thinking along!

 

@PROPELLER: I'll have to look into that, I'll surely have some close-up pics of the carburettor. 

 

It looks like the mystery of the hand brake-rod can't be deemed solved yet. Peter's statement does not (yet) convince me, because the rod seems to be moveable and it appears to set something in motion. Unfortunately Revs Institute hasn't succeeded (upon very kindly trying) to make good detail photos... this part of the car is almost out of reach, there are oil lines right in front of it. But Eventually I expect we'll figure it out together... probably it's going to be a matter of deductive reasoning. 

 

As regards the other rod, above are all reactions from four forums. Most respondents assume it has something to do with lubrication handling. In reply to Coachke's remark I wrote that this this engine doesn't have one but three oil pumps (!) He might just be right, insofar that one of those pumps can be manually affected. This is also how I interpreted Harvey's reaction for example.

 

Eventually I concluded, inspired by Cresswell's drawing, that finding out what's the purpose of the rod is less important than I originally thought; there is no intra-engine connection going on as it seems. Therefore for building the model it's not really relevant what its purpose is, after all. It's sufficient to have it moveable. 

 

I have made quite a bit of progress processing and sorting the photographs and videos, after which I'll be able to reprise the drawing process. After a period of great busyness at work, I was now looking much forward to this... but now I received a building permit for my bathroom, one month early. I'm not complaining though! So I'll focus on that, while modestly continuing and finalising the sorting / organising work regarding the photos, drawing, videos et cetera. 

[harveyb258]

I look forward eagerly to the continuation of this wonderful project, Roy....as I know, do you. You must be itching to get stuck-in.

 

Cheers, H

[Roy vd M.]

@harveyb258 You can say that again... really looking forward to getting back to the drawing board, even more so de-dusting lathe and mill.  

 

 

Meanwhile I sorted all photos and even sub-sorted most. Regarding the photos from 1927 I listed them chronologically (sorting by race, by driver and per moment in race... before start, start, race, finish, flowers etc.) Totally there are 96 photos. I have 43 photos dated 1926 but I did not sort them as I'm going for the 1927-look. 

 

Tonight I mostly finalised the complete reference maps as regards photos and drawings (however some parts need to be sub-organised). In the maps are to be found all recent and older photos and drawings, divided into eleven categories (engine, interior, left front, right front, left center, right center, left rear, right rear, body shape, wheels and distance views). A number of higher quality pictures from 1927 are also included here, whereas the remainder will solely be used during the end phase of the build, for example for applying the car's number and for weathering purposes. 

 

Naturally several photos needed to be copied, belonging to more than one category (e.g. 'engine' as well as 'right front'). In total the reference map now has 1717 files. 

 

What now needs to happen before I can resume drawing, is sorting the videos into exactly the same categories as mentioned before. There's approximately an hour and a half of video footage constantly showing details of the car (specifically chassis 1 and chassis 3). Each of the compilations therefore will contain only imagery of the one area of the car. This will make measuring and deriving substantially faster. Now it costs me a lot of time and energy, but this is an absolute must to be able to work effectively later on.

[Pouln]

Hi Roy, took me some time to catch up with this thread. Big thanks for all your detailed explanations on Fusion360 and on your work. Big help that you created these videos. Of course I subscribed.

i read that you have a lot going on at this time. Sure hope you’ll find the time to pick up this other work again.

 

[Roy vd M.]

Thanks @Pouln for your (continued) interest in this build and for subscribing to my Youtube channel. 

 

Bathroom

You're right, it has been a very intensive last half year. After much trouble the bathroom is in its finalisation stage and I hope work will have been completed next week. A lot of detail work on the house has to be done but the bathroom really was top priority because only last week have we been able to take a shower in our own home, for the first time since moving there in October 2018. That's seven months of having to travel 15 miles to be able to take a shower... imagine the perfect satisfaction felt upon touching the first homebrewed drops of rainy showering. 

 

Modelling cycles

To me the desire to scale-model comes and goes, as it most probably ever will as long as my health will allow me, with almost cyclical precision. This cycle was once suppressed during my hobby-exercising dark ages labeled early puberty, have during these last couple of months been suppressed once more. I am really looking forward to get back to the Fusion 360 drawing board; if I had the chance to do so today I would. Alas, beside the necessary finishing jobs regarding our house there has been a growing demand for my legal services. I've never had to complain about lack of clients or cases but the last half year this has started to rise even more opportunely. This has led to working weeks of, totalling, 80 to 90 hours. That's why I even did not have time to follow the forum's updates lately, to my sincere regret. I hope I'll be able to rejoin around summer... can't wait to get back to Fusion 360, you can be sure of that. 

 

Peter Giddings

Meanwhile now I'm at it, though on a very different and sad note, it is with the utmost of respect and grief to inform you that last January Peter Giddings has deceased. To even start introductions of who Peter Giddings is would take a considerate amount of text so I'll simply refer to the website http://petergiddings.com/ containing an overview of his life as well as the cars he owned and raced. Peter has been the proud owner of the Delage 15-S-8 chassis #4, which after the 1927 championship season was raced by Richard Seaman, among others. Peter and I had e-mail contact about the build progress and expressed true interest in what I had been planning to do and how to do it. In 2018 we met in Paris at Retromobile, where I also had the opportunity to measure chassis #3 owned by Christophe Pund. I would not have gone there though if it wasn't for Peter's invitation to meet. Last-minute tickets were bought and I went there. People who know me would likely say I'm a man without much drama, so having that in mind let me tell you this meeting with Peter was a mind-changing experience. I don't remember ever having been that awe-inspired by a character like Peter's.

 

He talked about racing, in all modesty, about his newest treasure (a completely restored Alfa Romeo Alfetta, the Formula 1 championship season of 1950 winning car driven by Nino Farina)... we were sitting on chairs watching the car from a distance and at one point a little kid went very, very (upsettingly) close to the car. Mind that the paint had barely dried (the restoration had been finalised just in time for Retromobile, Peter and the restoration firm intending this considered-lost car to be one of the surprises and highlights of Retromobile)... I saw Peter watching this kid get very close to the priceless car (held by his father, but being close enough to touch the paint), so as if Peter had not noticed I told him 'Peter, this kid is really coming close! And this is only the beginning of the exhibition week; have you considered protecting the Alfa by putting it behind lines?' upon which Peter, still his eyes on the kid and his car, walked to parent and child, shook father's hand and asked the kid whether he wanted to sit behind the wheel. I was mindblown. But so it happened; the kid in the 68-year old seat grinned from ear to ear, almost splitting his head in two, as he sat in the Alfa Romeo while pictures were taken by father and more and more onlookers who had started to notice this gem of a car.

 

Upon returning to his seat and seeing my raised eyebrows, he simply told me "Roy, children are the future. We have to cherish their enthusiasm for vintage motor racing. To me this is a car that will be raced. I'll race it and blemish it and scratch it. Let the kid have some fun before I do that."

 

(Here is a video of this exact car being fired up and driven by the chief restorer, Jim Stokes... you may or may not agree that this could be the most beautiful piece of machinery ever to have left the factories of Alfa Romeo)

 

After one hour of him talking, me talking, us exchanging opinions and me trying to take it all in, to my astonishment I noticed that in reality three hours (!!) had gone by. I could not believe it. What an experience this was... Peter has managed to really influence my way of considering motor sport history, and what a cherished decision it was to get to Paris to meet him. Now I realise this would have been my only chance. May Peter forever rest in peace. 

[Silenoz]

To bad of Peter, seems like a lovely guy... 

 

The updates will come when they come...

[harveyb258]

Sad news, indeed, Roy. Such a shame.

 

It's good to read that your bathroom woes are almost over, though and I look forward to your return.

 

Cheers, H

[Roy vd M.]

Thank you @Silenoz and @harveyb258 for your kind words.

 

It seems the bathroom woes are almost over indeed, soms detail work yet to be done but the shower is fully used. Still getting used to the luxury of having an in-home shower system, let me tell you it's heavenly! 

 

The seventh vlog is ready. Because I intend to document as well as I can how the drawing- and build processes go, it is inevitable to give an overview of how I sort all reference photos, videos, drawings et cetera. This is my first video that may appeal to a somewhat wider audience of modellers, because it consists tips on how to arrange a large database of 'walkaround stuff' in such way that the files can be easily browsed, located and accessed. 

 

Click on the visor to play the video fullscreen. Questions / remarks are always very welcome! 

 

 

[harveyb258]

Good to have you back, Roy.

 

Very well organised, indeed...just as we have come to expect from you.

Happy showering

[NickD]

Hi Roy,

 

As Harvey said, glad to have you back. You will clearly not be lacking information.

ATB

 

Nick