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Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)


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Thanks Mr Codger :)

 

276. This may be a 92 year old car, but that doesn't imply it shouldn't contain some very complex shapes. 

 

One of the best examples is the chassis. A normal truck (lorry) chassis is often quite straightforward: simply two mirrored U-profiles connected by other U-profiles. The Delage does have U-profiles but they are much more tangled:

 

1) The absolute height of the chassis beam is different everywhere along the beam. 

2) The relative height of the chassis beam is different everywhere along the beam. 

3) To make things even more complicated, the inner distance between the two chassis beams differs everywhere as well. 

4. For weight saving purposes, the designers have limited the width of the U-pieces at some spots. 

 

This was of course an extremely costly design in 1927 (as everything regarding this car, compare the development- and production costs with a modern Formula 1 car). It was not easy to measure for me. It's going to be more difficult to draw in 3D. And it will not necessarily be easy to model in brass, but I'll worry about that later. 

 

First I tried to sketch 1) and 2). That was not a problem. In part: 

26073225237_b987a6e14d_b.jpg

277. It was more difficult to add 3). In Fusion 360 it isn't possible to bend part of the chassis as seen in the above drawing. Therefore, both profiles (X-axle and Y-axle) have to be drawn and combined by a detour, so to speak. After that, the 'ends of the U' are attached. Now I'll have to find a way to effectuate 4). 

 

Some random chassis-like shapes: 

27074735788_e1a7884e6e_b.jpg

A video of this test (note how curvy in many directions the chassis beam is): 
 

 

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amazing 

do i understand well that this

is this a recreated shape from your measurments ? 

 

amazing job through and through

:star:

your girl friend must be re assured when you have passion you really do the impossible :star::star:

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On 22/03/2018 at 9:34 PM, NickD said:

That's a pretty compelling proof of concept.

Yes it works pretty neatly; I also found a way for the fourth step, will explain below. 

Quote

Fusion really looks like it should be able to do what you need. Learning curve is not too fierce either by the the looks.

I must say I'm more than pleasantly surprised. Learning curve I'll describe below. 

11 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

do i understand well that this

is this a recreated shape from your measurments ? 

Thanks Sam. This shape was a practice and proof of concept; in reality the chassis isn't as extravagantly curvy as above. But I've already started the real chassis, see paragraph 281 below. 

Quote

your girl friend must be re assured when you have passion you really do the impossible 

It isn't nearly as difficult as it looks, really... and I'm not being modest. Using this program is much easier than I had anticipated. 

 



278. When finished, I'll be able to measure parts of the virtual model. Of course this will come in very handy when building the 1/8th scale model.

40919908942_9d9544760f_b.jpg

279. I wrote before that the shape of the chassis is complex in four aspects, turning it into a snake-like thing. The first three: 1) the height from chassis beam to ground differs everywhere; 2) the distance between the two chassis beams differs everywhere; 3) the internal height of the beam itself differs everywhere. 

 

I managed to effectuate these three aspects into the drawing. The fourth and final aspect ('sawing off' parts of the chassis) wasn't very difficult either. How? A 'cutting line' was drawn and stretched into a 'razor blade'. The curvature can be set exactly as I want. It looks like this: 

26089596707_5c71a847d4_b.jpg

280. After 'cutting with the blade', this is the result:  

40068251075_3e7bf425a3_b.jpg
 

Only after seeing this result I noticed that the upper U-end was incorrectly drawn 'open'. The lower U-end was drawn correctly (solid). But in both cases the result is clear: cut-off bits of 'metal'. 

 

281. Now that I think I know how to design the chassis, I'll immediately start on the real dimensions. I do this for you guys of course, as you must be curious about what the real chassis looks like. This is pure altruism, obviously nowink.gif
 

Anyway I started entering the coordinates of length (=from front to rear of the car) versus width (=distance between the two beams). I'll connect those coordinates with lines / tangent arcs. I'll make another one of those 'blades' out of the resulting line, although I won't use it to cut anything off. This time I will use the blade to overlay the side profile of the chassis. As if you're applying a decal (=side profile of the chassis) over a rounded surface (=chassis shape seen from above). Not an easy thing to fathom when explained in words, but I'll show this later visually.  

 

Here the first array of measured and entered coordinates, seen from the front-left: 

40252759694_bc850d96a2_b.jpg
 

To follow up on Nick's remark about learning curve. I am not a modest guy, but still through these posts it is not my intention to 'show off' how good I am to learn to use this program in a few days. Two things about that, first: I haven't learned all aspects of the software by far. More importantly, secondly, this piece of software is much easier to use than I would have ever dreamt it could be. Yes I have experience with computers and drawing software, no I never worked with 3D-cad. Yes I learn relatively quickly. But if I consider myself duly prepared and informed to start the real deal, after a mere 10 hours of studies and practice, that says more about the software than about me.  It also says a lot about all the available knowhow... you only have to search your question online and one solution or another is shown immediately. That facilitates quick progress. I dare say that this program can be used (basically) after 15 hours of study and practice, for those who are moderately good with computers. 

So again, for those who want to start Fusion 360, do watch the three introduction tutorials for absolute beginners by Lars Christensen (they are really great and take only an hour to watch), try to copy what he does, try using the software, watch some videos, study the setup and menus of the program and you'll have a basis. Making notes along the way, helps too. My starting of the real drawing is something I see as an exercise on its own. Suppose I currently know 3% of Fusion 360 and am able to use 50% upon encounter (due to the already mentioned intuitiveness) I'll proceed on the go and will get to know the program better along the way. 

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282. I sorted all walkaround-photos and -videos . There's about 1.200 of them and the best way to optimally use them for reference is to sort by subject. The base for this build will be chassis #1. All engine-related imagery was moved to a separate map. Now that my drawing work starts with the chassis, I went through all maps (also the engine map where I found a few very useful chassis pictures) and copied the best stuff into a new map. Why copy? When I'll start drawing (and machining) work on the engine I'll still have all engine-related stuff in one map. 

40965420862_dafc67ce3a_b.jpg

283. This is the drawing I made in Fusion so far. The model-to-be is seen from rear right. 

 

If you understand what you see here, it's easier to see how I'll proceed from here: 

 

- The purple line is the centerline of the car, floor level. 

- The green dots to the left of the center line, will constitute the circumference of the righthand chassis frame as seen from the side

- The green dots to the right of the center line, will constitute the curvature of the righthand chassis frame as seen from the top

40114335325_13cb2f43c3_b.jpg

284. To see what this represents, in the next photo I indicated the chassis with red circles. 

41008045281_01990ce61a_b.jpg

285. Back to the drawing. What needs to be done from now? 

26136718677_45e24a6bf3_b.jpg

- Under 1. you see (schematically on the center line) the opening in the body that the rear axle moves within. That's an important orientation point. First I'll have to sketch several more of those orientation points, such as bolts, rivets, bonnet end, et cetera. 

- After finalising that, I'll be able to connect the dots of the top / side views, based on reference photos. Fusion 360 simplifies making nice fluent lines, but I'll have to tell Fusion their exact shapes. 

- The front- and rear ends of the chassis frame need to be modelled. 

- After that, points '2' on the drawing come into action: I'll 'pull' the top view curvature into a blade (making 3D out of 2D by one simple pull action). See the arrows at 2. 

- After making that 'blade', I'll pull the side view-circumference through the blade. The 2D shape gets solidified in the process. See the arrows at 3. 

- Where the top view and side view cross, a complex shape arises. I'll save it. That is the outer shape of the chassis! 

- The sectional shape doesn't have any substance (two steps ago I solidified the side shape, but the solidification is already abandoned now). I'll 'thicken' the new shape, thus creating the first and most complex chassis part. 

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286. Connecting the coordinates is done by using the 'spline' command. The software makes as fluent a line as possible. I simply need to click on each coordinate. If at one point an 'unexpected' curve awaits, the software corrects the previous part of the curve. For example, see the image below. Lefthand down, there's a green curve being the current end of the spline. When I'll click the next dot, righthand down, the dashed line curve will replace that green curve. 


attachment.php?attachmentid=106677&d=152

The spline curvature can be amended later.


287. The next screenshot shows the connected coordinates. 

 

Also you can see an inserted photo: a handy reference for adding bolts, rivets et cetera. 

attachment.php?attachmentid=106678&d=152

 

288. A photo taken from the side illustrates better what I'm drawing.

27144017438_c7672e4dd6_b.jpg

293. How to combine both two-dimensional shapes into a three-dimensional chassis face, is best shown through a video. 
 

 

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Roy, I know you have professional-level skills with mill and lathe and other precision machines. But this research and problem-solving, in addition to that,  is leagues beyond the scope of a great many or us here.

 

A challenge and inspiration to those of us that desire the utmost in model replica accuracy.

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Roy,

 

Excellet tutorial. You almost seem to know what you're doing. LoL.

 

Seriously, that should encourage people to have a go even if it is only from an online drawing (rather than fly round the world to measure the priceless relic directly).

 

As Codger said, individually most of us may think we are quite good at one thing or another (even if it's only creating dust). You seem to be taking on us all. Bravo.

 

Long may it continue


Nick

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22 hours ago, harveyb258 said:

Very impressive stuff you're sharing with us, Roy. I'm loving every minute detail!!!!!:D

And thanks for following and posting your own excellent scratchbuilding artistry, it helps keep me motivated to pull this through. 

20 hours ago, Codger said:

Roy, I know you have professional-level skills with mill and lathe and other precision machines. But this research and problem-solving, in addition to that,  is leagues beyond the scope of a great many or us here.

 

A challenge and inspiration to those of us that desire the utmost in model replica accuracy.

Now I could accept this major compliment and thank you, or I could try to nuance it and thank you anyway. I'll do the latter, because in my honest opinion I'm really quite far from having those skills on the machines. I'm trying though; my way of dealing with setbacks is that I'll always retry until I'm happy with the result, even if that means 20 attempts. So although it probably looks good in the end, it's often an overly ambitious result given my skill level. In other words, I'm a slow modeller, to compensate for skill yet to be developed. :) 

14 hours ago, NickD said:

Seriously, that should encourage people to have a go even if it is only from an online drawing (rather than fly round the world to measure the priceless relic directly).

I hope they will. For those who are looking for practice examples, Gerald Wingrove in his book 'The Complete Car Modeller' included some nice multi-view 2D drawings such as a Packard, Mercer Raceabout and Ferrari 250. I don't know how this works intellectual property-wise but I personally don't think Mr Wingrove would mind the creation and sharing of a 3D model based on his drawings; you can always ask him (e-mail address on his website). Beside that there are several other sources of blueprint / dimensions info. It's really a lot of fun.

 

 

294. For some reason it appears (or seems) logical to start the 3D construction on the crossbeam in the rear, from its outer end. There are two brass castle nuts. On the next photo the largest part of them can be seen.  

26176274217_0a604871a2_b.jpg

295. How to create the crossbeam: drawing two concentric circles at the rear end of the chassis (side view) and extruding the space between those two circles. That way a 3D tube is created. Near its end, both castle nuts are created, layer upon layer. Each layer is extruded, making it 3D, as I showed in the video in paragraph 294 regarding the chassis (side view). 

 

To create the merlons I first sketched their outline. This is easily done by drawing one line (along the circle's radius) and having the software copy that sixteen times around. This is done automatically and the lines are offset proportionally; see drawing hereunder. 

 

Next it's a matter of selecting what I wish to extrude. The selection turns blue. In the next pic I already selected almost all parts to be extruded: 


26176472217_310d93e905_b.jpg

296. After extruding one selection, I'll continue on the basis of the newly created face: on that I'll draw a circle for example, which circle I'll also extrude. Slowly but surely the desired result is achieved. A number of sharp edges are softened. This too calls for a simple command, named fillet. 

26176471987_9cc02afacf_b.jpg


297. Fusion 360 also has a render function: on Autodesk's servers a beautiful image of one's creation is generated. There's a limit to the number of times you can do that during one day, but I wanted to try it. Upon finishing the virtual model, this way a nice poster can be made! 

40154474265_eeea7759b6_b.jpg

I think everyone can see that I adore this software. Of course I'll have to make drawings, to be able to build the scale model, but I have to admit that Fusion 360 is quite addictive in itself. As if I'm solving a puzzle that goes on and on, taking me further visually along the way. I'm having a great time! 

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22 hours ago, NickD said:

Seriously, that should encourage people to have a go even if it is only from an online drawing

definitely 

 

amd definitely enjoying this as Harvey says. 

 

i also agree with you Roy that printing 3 d pieces should be only when it is not possible to scrtach them easily for an average modeller. Like for castle nuts.

 

of course this does not aply to you or our scratch builder friends here....hehe am sure you all would find a way to cast a castle nut below 1 mm in metal even if only lead.

 

gee these are interesting times for modelling great subjects  great tools great consumables great softwares great members on britmodeller 

great communication tools 

and accessible museums

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1 hour ago, Roy vd M. said:

 I'll do the latter, because in my honest opinion I'm really quite far from having those skills on the machines. I'm trying though; my way of dealing with setbacks is that I'll always retry until I'm happy with the result, even if that means 20 attempts. So although it probably looks good in the end, it's often an overly ambitious result given my skill level. In other words, I'm a slow modeller, to compensate for skill yet to be developed. :) 

 

 

 

Not to combat you but I have seen the Ducati axle nuts you made for Ron and to me that's machine skills. That you may have to make parts repeatedly to achieve the goal is the exact same modus as I employ. But you're operating at a far more ambitious level than I. Lacking professionalism, I hacked away until I got close.

 

Even just documenting this for us is a huge task and you organized and presented it perfectly for the layman. I personally appreciate and reward your efforts. Please carry on.

C

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What can I say... thanks guys for the compliments and motivation. I really appreciate it.

 

@sharknose156 regarding accessible museums... I realise they gave me a great chance. I really hope some of you can somehow be in the same situation and are as lucky as I. 

 

On 3/27/2018 at 3:18 PM, Codger said:

Even just documenting this for us is a huge task and you organized and presented it perfectly for the layman. I personally appreciate and reward your efforts. Please carry on.

It's interesting that you say this. I'm keeping a similar thread on another forum, in the Dutch language. I always translate everything from Dutch into English. Because of the enthusiastic reactions on Britmodeller and the impression I got from the other forum (friendly but rather small community, mostly plastic modelling 1/24) that all of this is getting a bit 'too much', after consult I decided to do full writeups on Britmodeller and will then make summaries in Dutch for the other forum, referring to Britmodeller for more in-depth texts. That way I will make reading life easier for the followers on the other forum. For me it saves a lot of translation time. After the drawing phase has ended, texts on both forums will run parallel again.

 

 

298. On the other forum someone asked me if it wasn't more practical to first draw some parts of the car and then draw on, to prevent parts of the drawing having to be redone. I tried to explain that it's the other way around: in the drawing I can correct practically everything, later on. While drawing I can compare all photos I have with the virtual model. Of course it's more difficult or, in the most cases, even impossible to amend / correct machined parts. At this moment I cannot start the 1/8th model even if I wanted to... there are numerous uncertainties. Only by means of using a 3D CAD program + photos can I mostly reconstruct the real car. I need Fusion 360 more than I would have thought before I started learning it. 

 

For example, the nuts I had sketched. They have to be resized lengthwise, widthwise and also I incorrectly didn't sketch a separate brass ring. I found this out during the drawing process because at one point the given dimensions didn't match the incorrect assumptions I based the drawing thus far on. If I had machined the nuts I'd certainly have had to throw them away (=two to three hours extra work + brass costs). Now in Fusion 360, separating the nut body cost me some 30 seconds. 

41036788112_4819e8a5a7_b.jpg


299. Two more amendments. 

 

Searching for the answer what kind of nuts these are (=this is), I studied some reference pics of Retromobile 2017: 

26176274217_0a604871a2_b.jpg

41017060342_ff511a8872_b.jpg

Remember the last one, I'll come back to it later.

 

I also found this picture of chassis 3: 

26209330787_b389d66580_b.jpg

I'm not sure if this trans-tube is original but I guess so. Bless the concept of video. In one vid I made during Retromobile 2017 I saw this: 

41038031252_5bca1c519b_b.jpg

Apparently there's a threaded end. 

 

I found another picture taken during restoration of chassis 1; I can't share it but it's clear that the nut(s) is/are not brass but steel! 

 

That brings me back to what I wrote before... I'd have lost another three to four hours to replace the nut subassembly if I had machined it. Now it's a matter of literally 10 seconds: 

40371865964_e23bbe7ae8_b.jpg

 

Dirt / oil seems to be the reason why I first thought the nut(s) was/were brass. See the third image of this post. 

 

That one single simple nut could be used, is shown on chassis #4. I haven't had the opportunity to see this chassis in real life but fortunately there's a nice video online. Screenshot: 

39284584900_5080c833b8_b.jpg

The video takes only one minute but manages to demonstrate the beauty of the car: 
 

 

I ascend the stairs of admiration for chassis #1 by yet another step when looking at these nuts. Probably this is, yet again, the only car on which the original nuts have survived. Chassis #2, #4, #5 and I think #6 all have replacement nuts; of #3 I am not sure. 

300. I modelled part of the rear shackle. Drawing wasn't difficult, but getting the dimensions right on the basis of the photos was a real challenge. I have cursed myself already multiple times for not taking this or that dimension while at Revs. But realistically I realise that I did the best I could. 

 

40410649614_05d417c024_b.jpg 

 

301. In Fusion 360 it's an easy step to assemble the shackle onto the rear tube in such way that it can rotate. As I don't yet know the exact angle of the shackle this is a nice in between solution. And, it makes for a nice toy for the child that I am. 

 

 

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That video proves that every single proportion and form on this car is perfection. You picked a stunning subject to view on your shelf daily. I only wish to hear it in person...

 

You must complete it. :whip:

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@Codger I'm with you... would love to hear it in person. People who can be considered to know a thing or two about racing cars have said that this car, along with the Alfa Romeo 158 / 159, may have possessed the best sounding engines in the history of the sport 'till the 60s. Of course it's all subjective. 

 

I think the engine sounds so special because of all the roller and ball bearings (62 throughout the engine), but that's just a theory. 

 

If you haven't seen it already... here it is, chassis #4 on the track. Notice that the driver fullthrottles right away. The fun starts at 0:40. 

 

 

I will complete this car. 

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Thanks Harvey, indeed it's a beautiful sound. Another reason for it may be that it can rev to 8.000 RPM, mainly due to the roller and ball bearings I mentioned. Most cars of that era were able to do around 6.000 RPM. 

 

 

302. the shackle was finalized for the largest part. Today it was time to draw a complex 3D shape, the connecting piece between rear pipe and chassis.  There are several bolts fixing this part to the chassis. The furthest away from the pipe is indicated with a red '2' in the photo below.  

 

40430962574_9628734f3f_b.jpg 

 

303. First I sketched the outline of the part. I then extruded it into a 3D-shape. Here we see it from the right rear side: 

 

27269318538_7f511f06f4_b.jpg

 

The arrows indicate the lines along which this part would be shoved into the chassis. Their shape was made dependent on the shape of the chassis. If I'll amend the shape of the chassis, Fusion 360 will automatically correct the shape of the part I'm drawing. 

 

304. I cut off some more, to later fit the chassis outer face. 

 

40247264525_e619e68cd8_b.jpg

 

305. On the reverse side I cut away a substantial mass of 'metal'. Left hand, you see an arc. That's where bolt #2 will be (see first photo of this post). Also here all lines are dependent of those of the chassis. 

 

41142456401_d9709696e5_b.jpg

 

306. From unclear photos I guessed that the crossection might look like this: 

 

27268981538_b95918afb7_b.jpg

 

I cut that away (red colour means 'cutting action' in Fusion 360). It doesn't really matter much though, because this part won't be visible on the model. 

 

307. This is the result.

 

41142456301_d9709696e5_b.jpg

 

308. Again offsetting the outline of the D-shaped section, I was quickly able to select this shape. The central part of the D-section is hollowed out, once more using an offset for both starting and ending points of the cut. 

 

Again, the red outline will cut away the 'metal'. 

 

27268981408_a9156c0d75_b.jpg

 

309. The 'slide' shape is achieved in 10 seconds by using the 'fillet' command, smoothing an angle to the desired curve. 

 

41142456211_f0c6da5340_b.jpg

 

310. Finally there is a pin, piercing the pipe. I created a new plane from an angle, perpendicular to the axle centre (=the blue line acts as crossection of the new plane). On this plane I sketched the pin. 

 

27268981238_a633e774a4_b.jpg

 

311. Here the pin can be seen on both ends. 

 

41142456091_3633398621_b.jpg

 

312. Ready! 

 

27268980918_a3e13e9cda_b.jpg

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@harveyb258 And the rear? The 'connector piece' at the front of the Delage has a different shape, but is a similar construction as well. 

 

@PROPELLER When you, scratchbuilder of the fabulous Talbot-Lago Grand Prix car, are saying that things are a challenge or even an issue I start to get nervous. These aren't the easiest parts to be made, for sure. I'll add a paragraph to give some preliminary thoughts about how I might try to tackle it. Usually I have to make several attempts / changes of plans before what I envisage really works, so it's just my first plan. I'm open for suggestions. Thanks for the remark, I think it's a welcome change of subject after all the drawing stuff. 

 

 

313. The complex connecting piece I'll try to make in a subassembly.

 

My preliminary thoughts:

 

First machining the solid 'D' from brass (using mill + dividing head to get the curved end): see below drawing at '1'. 

Adding strips along the edge, soldering them in place; see drawing at '2'.  

The fillet can probably be made through soldering; see drawing at '3'. 

 

The pin can then be added. The section that 'enters' the chassis frame will be a subassembly of three pieces of sheet soldered together. Both part halves will then be joined through soldering. 

 

Better / easier suggestions are always welcome. 

 

39349303990_6b8cfdf319_b.jpg 

 

314. The above-described connecting piece is, in reality, even more complex. Part of it is a tapered cylinder with holes in it. Drawing the tapered cylinder in itself is not difficult: just selecting one circular profile on the one end, one circular profile on the other end, and having Fusion 360 calculate and draw the shape.

 

Note for the perceptive reader: the tapered shape in the screenshot below shouldn't be red (=cutting) but blue (=creating).  

 

41116000022_2348f0d5e7_b.jpg 

 

315. Cutting the 8 holes is more of a challenge, because simply cutting into them would make the hole be positioned in an angle. That's not what I want. I want the holes to run parallel to the length of the car.

 

There may be an easier way to do it, but what I did is add an axis to the tapered cylinder, then create four planes, each at 90 degrees. On the next picture it looks like 8 planes: 

 

40264111135_99f5865bf7_b.jpg 

 

316. Then I draw two circles on one of those planes, checking the relative distance of both circles. On their centerpoints I add two vertical planes, to use as reference for the other holes. 

 

Now I can cut the holes, two at a time: 

 

41115999782_8a6b875cd8_b.jpg 

 

317. That is done four times. In total there are 8 holes. Note that the rear pipe view was disabled, to prevent the holes from effecting that pipe.

 

41115999442_314db05ef9_b.jpg 

 

318. Enabling the rear pipe view.

 

41115999332_9e19022ffb_b.jpg 

 

319. The locking nut for the leaf springs has a special shape. To achieve that I first draw an arc....

 

41115998932_dcc773c26d_b.jpg 

 

320. ... then I use that arc as a knife. I set the nut central axis as pivot for the cutting action, let it cut 360 degrees around... 

 

41115998772_029a5c48da_b.jpg 

 

321. ... finally I add filets, to get 'U'-shapes of the 'holes'. 

 

39349704970_9e55a2f85a_b.jpg 

 

322. The chassis lines were improved for testing purposes: to check whether the connecting piece fits. Only the chassis outer face (correct thickness) of the chassis is shown.  

 

40448265764_1bf69087f0_b.jpg 

 

41160718181_1ee17f7dde_b.jpg 

 

39349704670_dbe14e7450_b.jpg 

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Nice CAD work Roy.  I tried Fusion 360 and a few other free softwares but I've been using SolidWorks for so many years I found it difficult to get out of that mindset.

You seem to be coming to grips with it remarkably well.

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Your ability to discern spatial relationships, even before the software illustrates it, is remarkable.

 

MY ability to do so is horrible - even after illustrated by the software...:wall:

 

Not an easy thing for a former art student to admit....:undecided:

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