Schwarz-Brot Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 I'm sorry to say so, Roy. But the only scale that allows you to capture all the details would be 1:1. So I'd say go for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codger Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 Just two small points from my experience; silver solder on brass takes chrome and nickel plating perfectly. I fashioned 'pillars', one at each corner, to make the vertical travel of the suspension solid, thus preventing sag from weight. I used .250" rectangular plastic rod, painted dark to 'disappear' between spring tops and chassis bottoms. I suggest metal for yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted April 28, 2017 Author Share Posted April 28, 2017 1 hour ago, CrazyCrank said: Evening @Roy vd M. I quote you: "In the manual it says that, unfortunately, aluminium cannot be plated (or it's not advised). That means I'll use brass for certain parts of the engine. I couldn't find an answer to my question whether a seam of silver solder would be nickelplated just as well (getting the same colour) as the brass." If you read another time the answers I made you on another post, you'll notice that I already advised that it's not possible to nickelplate aluminium; in all events, it's impossible with the nickel plating system provided by Frost Restoration. You'll have to use brass or copper for that. Two deficiencies of mine: first of all in the end I forgot to thank you for recommending Frost Restoration's system. I knew I had forgotten something... I had planned to give you credit for that. The other thing is, apparently, that I forgot I had ever asked you that question and that you had answered me. Mysteriously, both last week (when I ordered the stuff) and today after it had arrived, I went through several pages of your thread to see whether it contained the answer to my question. On both occasions I couldn't find anything! After that I contacted Frost by phone and they promised to get back to me per e-mail. As I'm not always patient and after not finding the answer in Mr Wingrove's book I decided to e-mail him. 1 hour ago, CrazyCrank said: Regarding your question, I can certify that it is possible to nickelplate a tin solder. In any case, it worked for me I've not yet tried to nickelplate a silversolder....I think we'll experiment that simultaneously Good to have confirmation about the tin solder... somewhere in this WWW I read that it's not possible to nickelplate anything containing lead. As both Mr Wingrove and you tell me that that's not true, that is good news. 1 hour ago, Schwarz-Brot said: I'm sorry to say so, Roy. But the only scale that allows you to capture all the details would be 1:1. So I'd say go for it! The original idea was to establish a collection of historically important Grand Prix cars, such as the McLaren MP4/6 or MP4/4, this Delage, the Fiat 806*, the Williams FW14, the Red Bull RB9, the Ferrari F2002, the Talbot-Darracq, the Lotus 18 et cetera. I had started the 1/12th scale McLaren MP4/6 which I plan to finalize, so the most logical thing to do (given that I'd like to showcase the cars together) was to also build the other cars in 1/12 scale. In scale 1/1 certain problems that arise already now, at the beginning of this build, could be dealt with in an easier, more controlled way. Details would be better visible (such as the many hundreds of engine turned metal 'swirls') and detai..... hey, wait... no way!!! 57 minutes ago, Codger said: Just two small points from my experience; silver solder on brass takes chrome and nickel plating perfectly. Good... I'm almost sure this is going to be the way to go... 57 minutes ago, Codger said: I fashioned 'pillars', one at each corner, to make the vertical travel of the suspension solid, thus preventing sag from weight. I used .250" rectangular plastic rod, painted dark to 'disappear' between spring tops and chassis bottoms. I suggest metal for yours. I remember that, it's this post. It could be a good idea for a problem I had not even thought of. The problem I'm talking about is the rather thin axles. The front of the model will be much heavier than the back but I'll show both anyway: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parryj Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 Roy, Thank-you for going so in depth on an all aspects of this. As someone else mentioned in different words - you're helping everyone by sharing your thought processes for solving problems, and deciding on various courses of action. Must say I'm also happy about the switch to 1//8! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Roy, Even more respect - I'll enjoy watching you wrestle with this monster. You also seem to have signed up to build 1:8 models of the other cars too. Ambitious indeed. All the best Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted April 29, 2017 Author Share Posted April 29, 2017 @parryj You're welcome, it's my pleasure of sharing those thought processes. I'm glad the general opinion seems to be in favor of 1/8. 2 minutes ago, NickD said: You also seem to have signed up to build 1:8 models of the other cars too. Ambitious indeed. First I'll hope to live through this one, then let's see what's next 177. I cut a short length of square brass for an important test: electroplating. I drilled two holes into the brass. Then I filled them up with silver solder. I want to see how this will come out after making the engine turned swirls and, afterwards, electroplating. 178. After filing it appeared that the solder didn't fully cover the holes. 179. Trying once more (pinching through the 'air bubbles' below the silver solder) is more successful. 180. Sanding with grids 400 to 12,000 will make the piece of brass shine like gold. 181. Using the milling machine the swirls are turned onto the brass, covering the silver solder. 182. One full rotation of the wheel will move the bed 1,5 millimeters to the right. The swirls are spaced 0,75 millimeters from one another. To speed up this process I put arrow-shaped stickers on the wheel. That way I can swiftly establish until where I'll have to rotate the wheel. 183. Making one row of swirls (43 pieces) will take less than a minute and a half. One swirl takes approximately 2 seconds to make (safe for setting up the machine and the part). See this video. 184. This is what the preliminary result looks like.The next step will be electroplating. I'm excited and curious! Total building time: 47h.; measurements-study: 30h. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 By jove, I think you've got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarz-Brot Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 I really hope this works out as planned. Can't wait to see some plated goodness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted April 29, 2017 Author Share Posted April 29, 2017 Thanks @NickD and @Schwarz-Brot... I must say I am happy with the plating results. 185. This is the setup for electroplating. The process is quite simple really. I will give an overview using numbers. The order of those numbers follows the direction of the current. Ad 1. Transformator. With this you can regulate how powerful the electric circuit will be. The larger the surface to be electroplated, the higher the voltage. There are seven settings, from 3 to 12 volts. Ad 2. Current control unit. In case of short circuit or too high a current, the power is cut off. Ad 3. Connection to anode bar. The anode bar is connected to the current control unit by a red wire. Ad 4. A croc clip is attached to the metal of the anode bar... Ad 5. ... while on the other side of that wire a croc clip connects to the nickel anode. Ad 6. Idem 5. Ad 7. Idem 4. That was the positive lead. Interim conclusion: the transformator pushes current toward the two sheets of nickel. Ad 8. This is a part that will be electroplated. It's hanging from a wire. Ad 9. That wire is connected to the cathode bar. The cathode bar crosses the anode bar, but they are isolated from one another by a brown-coloured rubber tube sleeving the anode bar and crossing the bucket. Ad 10. The end of the cathode bar is connected to the black wire. Ad 11. The black cable is finally connected to the current control unit. The electrical circuit is completed as the electroplating solution is poured into the bucket. How it works: after the current has flown to the two sheets of nickel (#5 and #6) the current is 'sucked' toward the part(s) to be electroplated (#8 ) because that part is connected to the negative part of the circuit. Tiny bits of nickel are, as it were, detached from the nickel sheets, the move through the liquid solution and they bond to the brass, forming a thin layer of nickel. 186. I made a work instruction-summary of the manual. Of course anyone who wishes to electroplate for himself will need to go through all of the manual! Before and during electroplating (always use mask and gloves) Check room temperature: between 15 and 30 degrees? Carefully pour the solution into the tank. If necessary, filter. Hang the anode bar plus nickel anodes into the solution. Croc clips should not contact the liquid. The parts to be electroplated should be smoothened as much as possible + cleaned + degreased + washed in hot soapy water. The parts need to be prepared for electroplating by using a special cleaner/scourer/preparer (paste needs to be made with clean water, a piece of cloth is used to rub the paste onto the parts to be electroplated; insofar necessary a toothbrush can be used for hard to reach spots). In final: rinse. Check whether there's a continuous layer of water on the part(s) to be electroplated. Hang the parts from the cathode and dip them into the solution. Here it's not problematic if the clips contact the liquid. However the parts should not touch the nickel anodes. Set the voltage. Put the pump's tube into the liquid*. Connect transformator and pump. Wash hands. After electroplating (always use mask and gloves) Remove the electroplated parts, hold them by their leads. Don't touch the metal. Thoroughly wash the parts in hot water. Remove the nickel anodes, again holding them by their leads. Do not touch the anodes. Thoroughly wash the anodes in hot water. Remove and wash all other components. Pour the solution back into its container for future use. Wash hands. *With this first test that won't work, because it seems I only have one adapter for UK-EU plugs. I'll buy one more. Meanwhile I'll stir the solution a bit with a piece of sprue. 187. This is what it looks like in the bathtub: 188. After 10 minutes...189. After half an hour... 190. After an hour... 191. A short video to demonstrate to what extent there's still a colour difference: There's still a difference in colour alright but that difference is very light. I'll keep the electroplating process running for a bit but I don't expect too much change. I think I'll accept this result, especially because the seams that will get a slightly different tone will nearly always be situated in a spot of shadow or tone difference in themselves. I expect that the modest difference will not be noticeable if it will be knowable at all. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyD Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Hello Roy, Really appreciate the time you took to give us an in-depth look at the process, Thank you Sir ! Randy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarz-Brot Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Kind of weird to regulate a current driven process by selecting the voltage. Do you know which currents you actually produce? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted April 30, 2017 Author Share Posted April 30, 2017 10 hours ago, RandyD said: Really appreciate the time you took to give us an in-depth look at the process, Thank you Sir ! You're welcome Randy and thank you as well for taking the time to respond and, by doing so, motivating me to keep elaborating about what I'm doing. 1 hour ago, Schwarz-Brot said: Kind of weird to regulate a current driven process by selecting the voltage. Do you know which currents you actually produce? Not really... perhaps it can be calculated somehow but hey, as long as it works I'm happy Here, to illustrate, the voltage switch and the voltage table. Note that the switch does not feature 1,5 volts. 192. I'm proud of this update! The first thing I did this morning was to check whether what I saw last night was true also in daylight; fortunately, it was. As some of you will remember, when I started thinking about building this Delage I asked you guys for ideas how to make this cam cover: (By the way @CrazyCrank now I saw where you posted that info about electroplating... in my own topic! There I didn't check, indeed... ) Probably these cam covers are in the top 5 of most difficult to make parts of this model car, if not the most difficult. The problem is, applying the engine turned metal look combined with the very complex shape of the part. Using a CNC-mill the cam covers could probably be milled in one piece, leaving no problem, but manually that cannot be done, at least not by me. A different solution had to be found. I made this drawing to clarify how I saw the construction: Some three months later I have a different idea on how to construct this part but to discuss the problem that won't matter. That problem is: the swirls should be applied to metal. If the metal needs to be soldered, how wil I get a uniform colour on the part (on the one hand) and the solder (on the other hand)? I asked the people following this topic to help devise a possible solution. My own thought was to solder aluminium. Eventually five possible alternatives were suggested: 1) Aluminium brazing; 2) White metal casting (Schwarz-Brot); 3) Nickel silver soldering (Harvey); 4) Resin lamination by silver leaf sheet (Codger); 5) Brass scratching, silver soldering, engine turning, then nickel plating (Joeri); 6) Sterling Silver soldering (Jo NZ). As shown before, #1 isn't ideal. There is a modest difference in colour between the aluminium and the special aluminium solder. On a side note, the colour difference turns out to be smaller than feared before; the clue is to first let the solder rest a day before machining it. Yesterday I tried method 5). 192. The electroplating process makes the lower hanging areas of the part receive a slightly thicker layer of nickel. Slowly but surely the 'swirls' diminished. For that problem, the solution I had in my mind was to find a balance between thickness of the nickel plating (and by doing so reducing the colour difference between brass and solder) on the hand, and keeping the details as nice as possible, on the other hand. 193. I tested what would happen if I sanded off some of that nickel. Doing so I found out two remarkable things: The swirls became even more vague, by the sanding (although the swirls are not on the nickel but on the brass that isn't touched by the sanding). The layer of nickel is much thicker than I had expected. 194. With these two findings it was only a small step to method 7: metal turning after electroplating. First another video for the cinephiles. By using the hand wheel differently the engine turning action can be improved to about 1 swirl per second. 195. I will have to see which tool to use (probably hand-made)... this Dremel thing (€7,50) broke down after a few hundred swirls. Anyway it will be easier to make a swirl tool for 1/8th scale than for 1/12th. 196. Then, the result as hoped for... (don't mind the oversized swirls thanks to the broken tool bit) Compare to the situation before electroplating: The bits of silver solder cannot be seen anymore, from whatever side or perspective. The largest problem of this build (as it looks right now) has thereby been solved! I am very happy and relieved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 this is all great information. You should think of making a tutorial on nickel plating and see if the mods will make it a sticky in "Other Tools" section. I can certainly see me taking advantage of this information in the future - it would be a shame to lose it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarz-Brot Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Quote Not really... perhaps it can be calculated somehow but hey, as long as it works I'm happy Well, we would need to know more about the solution the electrodes are placed in. Not worth the effort. The supply only can deliver 12W. I guess the "controller" just makes sure you don't draw more than 1A, which is the maximum the supply is rated for. So it would be anything inbetween next to nix and a maximum of 1A. I am kind of surprised you get a really thick layer deposed on the material. Good to know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted April 30, 2017 Author Share Posted April 30, 2017 4 hours ago, hendie said: this is all great information. You should think of making a tutorial on nickel plating and see if the mods will make it a sticky in "Other Tools" section. I can certainly see me taking advantage of this information in the future - it would be a shame to lose it Thanks. Frankly I'm not so fond of making standalone tutorials. What I have done instead, for those who could find a use for it, is make an index of the more useful contents of this topic thus far. All the mistakes and failed attempts I left out. I added it to the opening post and I'll update it from time to time. It currently looks like this: TOPIC INDEX The hereunder index is updated up to & including: 30 April 2017, 21:00h. Description and depiction of modeling / machining errors throughout the topic has (mostly) not been included in the index. To read the full thread is to see all mistakes and failed attempts in the order they were made, showing my learning curve starting from zero. GENERAL - Introduction to lathe + accessories (#5a-5o). - Introduction to milling machine + accessories (#6a-6g). - General body measurements (#7). - General body shape photogrammetry. TECHNIQUES - Lathe (#8-24). - Customizing a cutting tool (#25-28). - Using the dividing head (#3-3h), see also here (#30-37). - Using Excel for calculating milling positions (#147). - Soldering aluminium (#148-154), see also here (#156-157). - Hard soldering (#177-180). - Turned metal (#164-165), see also here (#166) and here (#181-184). - Electroplating (#185-191), see also here (#192-196). ENGINE - Engine assembly plan (#167-171). - Coolant linkage nut (#1-2), see also here (#8-44). - Spark plugs, final version (#85-89), see also here (#106-112) and here (#114-121) and here (#122-131). - Sloped engine block part (#136-146), see also here (#147). WHEELS AND TYRES - Wiring diagram (#4-4b). 3 hours ago, Schwarz-Brot said: I am kind of surprised you get a really thick layer deposed on the material. Good to know! That was my surprise as well, I had assumed the layer would be really thin. So I started sanding grid 12,000; then to 4,000 and it even easily held a rub of 400. After that I 'applied the swirls'. Because I sanded the part before and after plating it's not possible to check how thick the layer of nickel is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pouln Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, Schwarz-Brot said: Kind of weird to regulate a current driven process by selecting the voltage. Do you know which currents you actually produce? Well, actually it is not that weird as current is the result of voltage divided by resistance (of the connected circuit). Ohm's law: I = V/R, where I is current, V is voltage and R is resistance. If you have a multimeter you could measure the resistance of the circuit and calculate the resulting current at any selectable voltage. Since the resistance is fixed, the current increases when the voltage increases. Roy, good stuff. Looks very promising. Edited May 1, 2017 by Pouln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarz-Brot Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 (edited) @Pouln, I know Ohms law. The problem is - we don't have a fixed resistance. The solution most likely changes it's electrical capabilities over time and the resistance is going to change from piece to piece. So with a voltage supply (as opposed to a current supply) you'll dial in an ever changing current. It wouldn't be reproducable at all. I don't think a different current will make a difference with Nickel plating, so it is no important point. Eloxadizing Aluminium for example is extremely dependent on constant and repeatable currents (and many other factors as well), else you'd get a different colouring (or grey) every time. Edited May 1, 2017 by Schwarz-Brot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 @Pouln and @Schwarz-Brot thanks for your deliberations on the electroplating process. I agree that it seems to be a mere theoretical issue (fortunately for me). Some of you have asked me how things stand in this build. Back in spring, when the weather was still nice, I was hoping for Revs institute to be willing to take some key measurements, on the basis of which I could make drawings and start the build. Unfortunately it had been decided that the Delage would make a 'grand tour' through Europe. After Retromobile it would make its way to Brooklands Museum, then to Montlhéry in France, then back to Brooklands and finally Goodwood's festival of speed, beginning of July. So I asked Revs permission to contact Brooklands to take just a few measurements of the engine (3 rather simple measurements). That would be sufficient information to keep me busy for all of summer. Calling them a few weeks later, kindly asking them if they had received my e-mail, they replied they would certainly take those measurements once the car was back from Montlhéry. Weeks later, again politely reminding them of my asked favour, they said sure, we'll do it this week. Two weeks later, they said 'sure we'll come to that'. That's when I gave up, I'm not going to keep reminding them. And they probably have more important stuff to do than help a scale modeler out. I started work on a 1/24 beetle carburetor, as a practice / study session. The idea is to make that thing as detailed as reasonably possible. See here for the current status. As of now I'm very busy working my regular job, no time for modeling. I've been finalizing stuff before a trip to the US (will depart from there just the weekend before the Delage will get back there, unfortunately!) When we'll be back home, first there's a lot of regular job work to be done, which will keep me busy for at least a month. Then I'll finalize the carburetor (which is now at approximately 70%). Finally I'll start working on the Delage, after receipt of the measurements. Paul Kierstein promised me to take all measurements as requested. One remaining problem is that of the turned metal swirls. I yet have to find a method to apply them. Having tried some more methods two months ago I'm afraid it's not going to be easy. But I'll keep looking for a doable method, although I tried at least 30 different things. So that's the status... project will be resumed after all regular work has been finalized. Could be October... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCrank Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Very happy to read you again, Roy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Looking forward to the resumption of this fantastic project, Roy......especially now that it's gonna be 1:8 scale! Cheers, H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted September 30, 2017 Author Share Posted September 30, 2017 Thanks @CrazyCrank and @harveyb258. I'm looking forward to it as well... unfortunately the Delage still isn't back in the USA! 197. Following paragraph 196 I was curious if the silver solder were still hidden beneath the nickel plating; fortunately that proves to be the case! During the preparation of this build I tried some 20 methods (at least) to create the engined metal swirls, 1mm. in diameter. Steel rods, aluminium rods, files, tired drill bits, tiny pieces of sand paper glued to steel, special swirl-makers purchased in Italy, optical fiber, mill bits, several types of Proxxon- and/or Dremel bits... I tried all kind of things. Really should have written all of those down, but I didn't think of that at the time(s). A few days ago, talking about the 'swirl-problem' with another modeler, at one point he mentioned carbon rod, used in fishing. A good idea and I found out that this stuff is sold at the hobby store around the corner. So I tried, first on aluminium (a soft metal)... 198. On the aluminium that worked rather okay, although I couldn't use too much force because the rod fibers would be split just like an optical fiber rod... but for the nickel-plated brass unfortunately the carbon rod is not sufficiently sturdy. Besides, the diameter gets too large because of the slightly splitting carbon fibers (appr. 1,8mm.). 199. Now with the new scale 1/8, the diameter will be approximately 1,5mm. That's 150% as large as the originally anticipated diameter. I'll therefore try some previously used methods. I know that 2mm. is doable, but at 1mm. the tool bit will drill a hole into the brass / nickel (if the bit is very hard, like steel). I wonder how 1,5mm. will hold...? Some requirements for the tool: - It has to be rigid in length, like steel. Copper won't work, for example, because it will bend right away. - It needs to provide precise, constant 1,5mm. swirls. Optical fiber or carbon fiber won't work because the fibers will split under (repeated) pressure. That can be seen on photo 197. - Ideally the underside is a bit flexible, to be able to work curvatures. - It needs to make minuscule scratches (=the swirl). Think sand paper.. that's why the combo sand paper-glued-to-steel works rather well, be it that it won't last long. - It can't drill into the nickel-plated brass. Whoever has a good suggestion, please share. I tried many things, but who knows we'll be able to find something together. For example the carbon rod-suggestion I would never have thought of myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codger Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Roy, I'm not bright enough to answer your problem. But I've no doubt you will find the solution or die trying. Your tenacity is unmatched. If you devoted these skills and patience to solving world peace, I know the world would be a better place. My feeble thought is diamond; Dremel makes a diamond-in-rubber set of bits. Possibly worth experimenting with. And allied to that thought is - lubrication - the elixir of life. Possibly a cutting-type oil to prevent galling if the bit point is so afflicted. Best luck what ever you try. I am still breathless to see the model come to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCrank Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Hi chaps Reading your post yesterday evening, @Roy vd M., , I thought, as Mr C, that diamond bits could be usefull for this job. But, this morning, reading an article on a tool supplier's website, i'm not so sure: The link: https://www.eternaltools.com/blog/12-things-you-should-know-about-diamond-drill-bits If it can help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted October 1, 2017 Author Share Posted October 1, 2017 @Codger and @CrazyCrank: thanks for your input and your kind words. I do hope I'll eventually get the answer. 200. Some advice / suggestions I received:* Fitting the carbon rod into a tube, so that very little sticks out. I tried this principle by sticking the carbon rod into the chuck with as little rod body showing itself. Unfortunately, even then, the rod is split. * Trying a 'steel brush' as done here. I tried this before but it didn't work then. The difference is that the swirls on the (beautifully made!) Bugatti are perhaps as large as 3mm. in diameter, rather than the required 1,5mm. It's scale 1/6 plus the swirls are larger than those on the Delage engine. Lastly, Mr C's suggestions. * Diamon-in-rubber cutters. I tried them before but unfortunately seem not to be available in this size. Conical cutters deteriorate too quickly. Regular diamond cutters (meant by Crazycrank) are too hard and will drill a hole. * Lubrication: that would be indeed a method to polish more nicely; tried it already. But didn't find a combination of tool+lubrication that worked. I think I'll try sand paper once more; 1,5mm. provides a bit more surface for adhesion, perhaps it will work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCrank Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 @Roy vd M., for lubrication, I think you should try White Spirit. I've seen, I do not remember exactly where, a Youtube video, of engine turning 1:1 scale on aluminium, and the guy used such a thinner to lubricate his job and avoid the clogging of his "swirling-tool" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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