Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)

[Roy vd M.]

DELAGE    15-S-8

 

 

 

 

(Both photos: copyright Olivier de St. Raph, see here)

 

 

TOPIC INDEX 

 

The hereunder index is updated up to & including: 30 April 2017, 21:00h.

Description and depiction of modeling / machining errors throughout the topic has (mostly) not been included in the index. To read the full thread is to see all mistakes and failed attempts in the order they were made, showing my learning curve starting from zero. 

 

GENERAL

- Introduction to lathe + accessories (#5a-5o).

- Introduction to milling machine + accessories (#6a-6g).

- General body measurements (#7).

- General body shape photogrammetry. 

 

TECHNIQUES

- Lathe (#8-24).

- Customizing a cutting tool (#25-28).

- Using the dividing head (#3-3h), see also here (#30-37).

- Using Excel for calculating milling positions (#147). 

- Soldering aluminium (#148-154), see also here (#156-157). 

- Hard soldering (#177-180).

- Turned metal (#164-165), see also here (#166) and here (#181-184).

- Electroplating (#185-191), see also here (#192-196).

 

ENGINE

- Engine assembly plan (#167-171).

- Coolant linkage nut (#1-2), see also here (#8-44). 

- Spark plugs, final version (#85-89), see also here (#106-112) and here (#114-121) and here (#122-131).

- Sloped engine block part (#136-146), see also here (#147). 

 

WHEELS AND TYRES

- Wiring diagram (#4-4b).

 

 

INTRODUCTION

 

The Delage 15-S-8 (or 15 S8, or 155B), famously driven by Robert Benoist (in a team of four cars), was the most successful Grand Prix car of 1927. My admiration for the car started in the research and scratchbuild thread regarding the Fiat 806 when studying the Grand Prix of Milan and the Grand Prix of Italy, held on the 4th of September 1927. The Delage 15-S-8 won several races during the Grand Prix seasons of 1926-1936. Highly impressive, even more so than the history and achievements of this car, is the story of Robert Benoist, a talented and successful racing driver who, when the war started, joined the resistance and participated in dangerous missions (even after he was caught and had thereafter escaped) and who was eventually executed in Buchenwald concentration camp. 

 

To everyone who is, to a greater or lesser extent, interested in this car... welcome in this topic! Feel free to contribute in any way. This opening post will be updated from time to time. On the 22nd of January 2017, 30 sources of information were processed and 247 photos, 16 videos and 15 drawings referenced. 

 

 

HISTORY

 

Introduction

Louis Delage's career began at a trade school “Arts & Metiers” in the city of Angers, from where he graduated with an engineering degree in 1893. His employment included work for a railway company in the south of France, but in 1900 he moved to Paris where he was employed in the engineering and design department of Peugeot, from where he was made an offer to join Renault in 1903. In 1905 Delage raised enough money to open his own assembly plant in a converted barn in Levallois on the outskirts of Paris. The Delage Automobile Company grew rapidly and their vehicles soon gained a reputation for their stylish appearance and quality and as a dominant force in motor racing³. For more information about Louis Delage see link #20. 

 

In 1906 Delage started racing. Initially the aim was promotion of the brand² (as well as showing his loyalty to France, wanting to build cars that would bring honour to his country³). In racing there were some early successes. By 1913 he had constructed a racing machine worthy of claiming the Grand Prix de France. His racing machines continued to evolve. In 1914, they featured double overhead camshafts and brakes on all four wheels. René Thomas drove a Delage in the 1914 Indianapolis 500 where he emerged victorious. In 1924, he set a land speed record at just over 143 mph. During World War 1, the newly built factory in Courbevoie was used for the production of military items³.

In the 1920s, when his cars were renowned as fast tourers, racing had become more an indulgence. Winning the European Grand Prix Championship had become an obsession with Delage². More about the pre-1926 Grands Prix with respect to Delage can be seen in article #12 and #14. 

 

1926

The four racing cars 15-S-8 were manufactured in 1926. The new Grand Prix formula asked for 1,5 litre cars with a minimum weight of 600kg., to prevent the racing cars from getting 'terminal velocity'¹⁴. In an article of 1926⁵ it is said: "Comme toujours, Louis Delage exige du neuf, du beau, du grand", meaning "As always, Louis Delage demands something new, something beautiful, something great." I advise to read that article by the way, as it gives a nice contemporary context. In an interview Peter Giddings, owner of chassis #4, says "Louis Delage said: 'build me the best car in the world, it must win' to young engineer and designer Albert Lory' and Albert Lory did just that" [after the 1927 modifications, I interpret Mr Giddings' remark]¹⁵. 

 

The 1926 car developed 170 HP at 8000 RPM, phenomenally high revving for the period. Nevertheless the engine was flawed. The exhaust pipe ran alongside the driver at elbow level and the twin superchargers mounted on the engine's near side gushed heat into the cockpit. Drivers didn't care for the new Delage at all. On a warm day they were parboiled. Driver changes in one race were so frequent that the entire team was disqualified. At Brooklands (the third race the Delages participated in), a pan of cold water^{5, 20} (some say champagne¹⁰) was kept for relief during pit stops. "One could actually hear boots hissing as they went into it", one driver from the Talbot team commented. Still, Delage did win its first race of the season that day^{2 5} while one car's instrument panel burst into flames¹⁰.  For detailed info on the 1926 season see article #5 (paragraph starting with 'Louis Delage n'entend pas'). If you are interested in reading about the intoxication of Robert Benoist, the hospitalization of Morel and burnt foot plus headache of Bourlier, all during the Spanish Grand Prix, see the same article, paragraph 'Confirmant une vélocité'. The Delages did not compete in the last race of the 1926 season (Monza) because the cars simply were not fit for the job⁵. 

 

During the 1926 season, whenever the team drivers were roasted or poisoned, fans would present themselves from out of the audience, to volunteer driving the cars.¹⁰ Different times indeed!

 

The main problems with the 1926 car were that the engine and transmission box were too close to the driver  (the transmission shaft almost touched the hip of the driver), the exhaust was near the driver's feet (hence the burnt feet) and finally the exhaust fumes that were highly toxic (40% benzol, 20% alcohol, 40% petroleum and a bit of ether) went straight into the cockpit (hence the intoxications). Lory made emergency modifications for the remaining 1926 race. For more information on the ending of 1926 race season, see article #5, paragraph starting with "Consolation".

 

1927

The following year the cars had been modified into the beautiful shape we're going to try to replicate. Louis Delage instructed the car's Designer, Albert Lory, to made yet more improvements to what was already his masterpiece. More on the 31 year old Lory can be read in article #5, specifically the paragraph starting with 'Albert Lory est alors'. Even more to be read of him in article #30. The engine had been offset to the left (imitating the Talbot), the exhaust moved to the left and improved⁵. The cylinder head had to be amended in order to facilitate the left hand exhaust¹⁰. In fact the block was turned 180 degrees do that the exhaust now faced to the left. Two lateral Roots compressors were replaced by a single compressor in the front. The radiator remained almost fully straight (it had an inclination of only 10 degrees) and a false front grille was added to improve the lining of the car⁵. The second mechanic's seat was discarded¹⁰.

 

The 8-cylinder 1500 cc engine was a technical marvel, having been designed with the utmost precision¹. It is described as 'the pinnacle of engine design at the time'¹². The exhaust system was moved to the other side, the twin superchargers were replaced with one larger front-mounted blower, the radiator was raked and the engine was offset to lower the body, resulting in one of the lowest frontal areas of any GP car for years. The jewel had become a milestone in race car design². More about the engine and its performance in link #21, second half of the text. 

 

During the 1927 race season, of the team's four racing drivers Robert Benoist was most successful, winning each of the 4 Grand Prix held in Europe. Delage didn't participate in the Indianapolis race. In 1927 there were four cars and five engines¹. Benoist's fame was such that for years after policemen would ask speeding motorists "Who do you think you are, Robert Benoist?"². A detailed report of the 1927 racing season can be read in article #5 (paragraph starting "Divo (Talbot) devait") and in article #6 (first paragraph). 

 

An overview of the most important Delage 15-S-8 racing history results can be seen here and here. 

 

Some professional views on the car: in The Classic Twin-Cam Engine Griffith Borgeson calls the Delage 15-S-8 ‘a consummate masterpiece in every sense’, and observes that ‘[t]he preciousness of these cars has always been self-evident’. In The Grand Prix Car 1906–1939 Laurence Pomeroy writes, ‘The Delage engine literally represents a technical tour de force both in design and construction.’ Denis Jenkinson in Directory of Historic Racing Cars says, ‘the 8-cylinder Delage 1,500 cc became a land mark in Grand Prix design’. Looking back from the perspective of three-quarters of a century, Karl Ludvigsen in Classic Racing Engines writes, ‘Size for size this was the finest racing car yet seen’; ‘the 15-S-8 Delage was Europe’s finest 1.5 litre racing car’; and ‘They were the crowning glories in the career of Louis Delage, who would never again attempt to build racing cars of such sublime extravagance.’²⁰

 

After 1927

His obsession surmounted, Louis Delage closed his race department and returned wholly to manufacture 'regular' cars. The team cars were sold and continued competing in private hands. Detailed information about that is to be found in article #6.

 

In 1936 at the request of Prince Chula on behalf of his cousin Prince Bira, Lory designed two more chassis providing an independent front wheel suspension system. These two cars, chassis 5 and 6, were built in the UK^{1, 6}. 

 

A victim of the Great Depression, Louis Delage was forced out of his company in 1935. A Delage dealer named Walter Whatley purchased the company’s assets. This proved to be a pipedream for him, and soon he was looking for aid from an automotive partner who could help with the costs of engineering, development and manufacturing. Luckily he found the assistance he was looking for — at Delahaye. An agreement was reached which allowed the Delage name to continue³. Louis Delage died, penniless, in 1947².

 

The Grand Prix engines after 1927 (to 1937) were 'in recession' as compared to the Delage 15-S-8, as mentioned at the end of article #21. 

 

Chassis numbers

Six 28-S-8 cars were produced (four Delage race team specimens and two later versions^{1, 6}). Hereunder a summary of what is (mainly) written in article #1. Much more information is to be found in article #6 (that also gives a different chassis number overview). 

 

Chassis #1 (21624)

Owned by the Rev's institute (American Collier Collection) in Florida, US, this is the best preserved car. Peter Giddings also says that this is the most perfect of the four original cars¹⁵. Mr Giddings continues: "It's the correct colour, the correct engine configuration, the correct original mechanical brakes (...)". Chassis #1 never had an accident and still has its original bodywork. In 1927 Delage entrusted the car to Divo and in 1929 it took part in the first Monaco Grand Prix. It is fitted with engine #5¹. See here. Chassis number is 21642². It was once owned by Briggs Cunningham⁶. 

 

Chassis #2

This is referred to as the 'laboratory car'. Robert Benoist drove it in the first race of the 1927 season (Montlhéry Grand Prix d'Ouverture). The car set a 1500cc world 24 hours record at Montlhery in 1932 when it was already 6 years old. Over the years both the engine and bodywork were replaced. It is currently on show at the Brooklands Museum in the UK, see here¹. According to Brooklands this is the car in which Robert Benoist won the Brooklands GP of 1927. This car has an original Delage engine installed (before: ERA engine) but still has an ERA-type pre-selector gearbox¹⁵. More information about chassis #2 is to be found in articles #25, #26 and #27. 

 

Chassis #3

In this car Robert Benoist won several races in 1927. Built around engine no. 4, it was seriously damaged by Lord howe in 1932. Christophe Pund plans to bring this car back to life. Several original parts have already been reunited. 

 

Chassis #4 (18488)

Owned by Peter Giddings, the car is nicknamed "Dick Seaman Black Delage". The car was driven by André Morel in 1927 and was taken to the US in 1929 to be raced by Louis Chiron in the Indianapolis 500. Once it returned to the UK it as modified by Dick Seaman. The car was fitted with engine no. 3. Its current racing number is '26'. According to link #9 this car was Benoist's championship car. More information about chassis #4 and its history in links #10 and #11. According to link #11 the racing heritage lines ran a bit differently than described before. This car was overhauled, improved and its weight was reduced. The compression was 'upped', using dome-sized pistons, and he carefully weighed, balanced, and tuned valves, rocker arms and camshafts, resulting in 185 bhp at 8,000 rpm. Ramponi also removed some 250 pounds from the car, resulting in a scale weight of 1,650 pounds. Ramponi also did what he could to stiffen the flexible chassis, by the addition of two pieces of hard oak to the front frame rails under the radiator shell. This marginally improved the rigidity of the frame. Today the oak has been replaced by New Zealand beech wood. Brakes were also upgraded to hydraulic, and an original five-speed transmission (a carry over from the earlier V12 Delage) was installed, replacing the Howe fitted heavy pre-selector gearbox. In 1968 the car was victim of a garage fire. The engine, which still turned over, miraculously survived, as did chassis axles, steering box/column, springs, hubs, fuel tank, among other parts. They remained virtually intact. However, the body, several of the aluminium castings and plumbing were lost. Nevertheless, Walker and Chisman once again restored the Delage and brought it back to life. From period automotive magazine and news reports it appears this restoration was close to a British national project with help coming from all parts of Britain. December 1970 saw the reborn Black Delage reappear for the Jacky Ickx Motor Racing Show in Brussels. When it was started up, the exhibition center emptied: the deafening high C scream of the engine had driven exhibitors and fans alike from the hall. Recently the car was restored to Seaman specifications^{11, 12}. For more information about chassis #4 see link #20.

 

Chassis #5 (WMG-101)

The GP5 was ordered by Prince Chula for his cousin Bira who owned three Delage 1500s at the same time in the 1930s. It was built around engine no. 2, together with bodywork panels. Prince Bira raced it from 1937 up to 1946 in the Geneva Grand Prix. It is currently part of Jean-Claude Miloé's collection¹. 

 

Chassis #6

The GP6 raced at Goodwood in 1949 with a Delage engine. At the time it had the Rob Walker Racing Team colours and, following an engine failure, was fitted with an ERA model in 1950, earning it the nickname "ERA Delage". It continued racing up until 1952, going up against the first Ferraris and raced in 2016 at Laguna Seca and won its class. It is currently on show at the Peter Mullin Museum in California, see here.

 

 

CAR SPECIFICATIONS 

 

General

• Build year: 1926
• Modified: 1927
• Power: 170 BHP at 8,000 RPM^{2,4, 8, 9, 14, 20, 21, 29} or 7,500 RPM⁷ or 150 BHP at 7,500 RPM¹⁷ or 150 BHP at 7,000 RPM^{23, 24}. Some say 9,000 RPM was 'occasionally' used during racing⁹ (1926: 160 BHP at 7,500 RPM¹⁰)
• Body type: pressed steel⁹
• Chassis: steel ladder type¹⁴
• Steering: worm & wheel^{9, 12, 14}
• Weight: 1805 pounds² or 750 kg⁷ or 748 kg^{9, 14, 29}  or 1600 pounds¹²
• Weight measurements of 1926 GP season: minimum 600KG. 1927 GP season: 700KG. 
• Top speed: 210 km/h^{4, 14} or 209 km/h⁹ or 132 mph¹² or appr. 130 mph²¹
• Rear axle ratio: 5,20:1¹²

 

Engine

• Engine: 8 cylinders in line, 1486 cc² or 1487 cc⁷ or 1488 cc^{9, 12, 14, 20, 29}
• Camshafts: twin, overhead
• Carburetor (1927): Cozette^{9, 12, 14, 20, 21} on the left of the supercharger¹² ,horizontally placed²⁰ (1926: twin Zenith)⁹
• Magneto: single, Bosch^{10, 12}
• Magneto position: right side²⁰
• Valves: two valves per cylinder^{2, 7, 8, 14, 29, 30}
• Borexstroke: 55,8x76 mm.^{7, 9, 12, 14, 23, 29, 30} or 78 mm.²⁹ or 57,5x75mm.²¹
• Engine compression rate: 6,5:1 ¹²
• Inclination of valves to combustion chamber: 50 degrees from the vertical^{7, 12}
• Intake valves: 31mm.¹²
• Exhaust valves: 29mm.¹²
• Number of bearings in the engine: 62^{12, 21} or 65²³
• Spark plugs: 18mm., aperture of 8mm¹²
• Cylinder head: integral with cast iron block.^{10, 12, 14, 21}, Crankcase was aluminium¹⁰
• Fuel: 40% benzol, 20% alcohol (methanol), 40% petroleum and a bit of ether^{5, 12, 20} or gasoline⁴
• Exhaust: fabricated steel, left side of engine (1927)¹²
• Engine and gear assembly attachment: to frame at its nose and at clutch housing. It adds little stiffness to the frame¹². 

 

Supercharger

• Supercharger: twin Roots (1926), single Roots (1927)^{9, 12, 14, 21}
• Blower boost: 7,5 psi at engine speed^{12, 21} 
• Delivery pipe: from blower along right side of engine to center of an eight-branch inlet manifold with blow-off valve at its center to protect the blower from backfires¹²

 

Gearbox

• Number of gears: 5 including one overdrive, excluding reverse^{7, 9, 12, 14, 20, 21, 23}, not synchronized¹²(the claim on Wikipedia that there are only 4 gears is incorrect unless the car's designer Mr Lory was wrong... let's not assume that ⁴)
• Clutch: multi-plate clutch^{9, 12}, dry¹²
• Gears: 1st. 2.25, 2nd 1.68, 3rd 1.27, 4th 1.00, 5th 0.85¹²

 

Suspension, brakes and wheels

• Suspension front and aft: rigid Axle (or: live axles) with semi-elliptic leaf springs, Hartford shock absorbers (or: friction shocks)^{?, 12, 14} or beam axle front suspension with 
  semi-elliptical leaf springs, live axle rear suspension with semi-elliptical leaf springs²⁰
• Brakes: mechanical, 4 drums^{4, 14, 20}, with power assist (gearbox driven servo)^{7, 9, 12}, chassis #4 in 1936 fitted with Lockheed hydraulic brakes¹²

 

General measurements

• Wheelbase: 2.500 mm.^{2, 20} or 2.495 mm. /98,2 in.^{9, 14, 29} or 98,8 in.¹⁰ or 98,5 in.^{12, 20} or 8 feet, 2 1/2 inches¹³
• Track gauge front and rear: 1.300 mm.⁷ or 1.345mm.^{9, 14, 29} or 53 in.¹⁰ or 51 in.¹² or 4 feet + 5 inches¹³
• Maximum height (top of cowl): 0,90m.⁷ or 35,5 in.¹⁰
• Minimum width of car body in 1926 GP season: 70cm.
• Overall length: 12 feet + 1 inch¹³
• Offset-position of engine: 4 inches¹²

 

TECHNICAL DESCRIPTION⁷

 

The following technical description of the Delage 15-S-8 (apologies for the sometimes bad translation) was given by its designer Mr Lory, in the same order as the car was built. It is very useful for scratchbuilding purposes and understanding how the car works.

 

• The chassis rails are made of thin sheet metal (3 mm.), being nickel-plated steel sheet to achieve maximum resistance with minimum weight.
• The rails are joined through very light cross-bars at the front and by tubes at the rear. This assembly is not done, as with a normal frame, through rivets but with bolts. 
• The mounts ('hands') of the front and rear springs, carved in a masse of chrome nickel steel, are bolted to the chassis. This construction is reinforced by aluminium wedges. 
• The front springs are lower than the chassis, the rear springs are higher than the chassis, in order to lower the car as much as possible. 
• The front axle, also made of high strength steel, is very light, although it must undergo enormous torsional forces during braking. It is executed in three parts that are bolted together, in order to obtain a perfect machining required to compensate for the thin gauge of the steel. 
• The front springs are fixed to the two outer base arms, taken in the mass of these arms, by means of steel housings that, at the same time, serve as attachment points for the shock absorbers as well as supports for the jacks. 
• The spindle arms have trays and turn on the axis of the axle through bearings, to avoid any major impact in direction. 
• The front track gauge is 1,30m. 
• The rear axle, which is entirely taken in the mass of the same nickel chromium-plated steel as the front axle, is made in three parts: a case that bears all the pinions and two 'trumpets' fixed to the springs by stirrups, the thrust and the reaction taking place through these springs. It has a differential with tapered sprockets, the tapered torque being straight-toothed air-hardened steel; its reduction is about 1 to 6. 
• Like the front track gauge, the rear track gauge is 1,30m. The wheelbase is 2,50m.
• Now the engine block and box were fixed to the frame, which box also contained the crankset and the small controls (idle speed, ignition advance, oil pressure), in order to make all these controls independent of deformation of the chassis. This block is connected to the longitudinal members by two transverse plates, the rear being clamped between the crankcase and the gearbox, the front one being articulated around the engine axis. 
• The engine has 8 cylinders in line, bore 55,8mm., stroke 76mm., total cylinder capacity: 1,487 cc. 
• The explosion chamber is hemispherical and has two valves, an inlet and an exhaust, which are inclined by 50 degrees to the vertical, the spark plug being in the axis of the cylinder.
• The two very high temperature resistant steel valves required a thorough study of shape and weight. They are pushed back by three concentric springs. Despite the high temperature in the explosion chamber, the valves do not suffer. 
• The camshafts, one for the intake and one for the exhaust, trigger the valves by means of 'linguets', they are drilled from one end to the other in order to supply oil to each cam. Mounted entirely on bearings, they are made of hardened chrome nickel.  
• The cylinder is made in one piece of cast iron with 'water jackets'? The entire coupling (connecting rods, pistons, piston spindles) had to be seriously thought over, considering that -despite the small bore or 55,8mm.- it should be able to withstand explosions and inertia of 1,5 tonnes. And this every half-turn, that is to say every 1/260th of a second. 
• The highly ribbed piston is made of premium quality aluminium; the shaft, very thin, is made of quenched and tempered steel. The two-piece connecting rod for mounting on the single-piece crankshaft, the crankshaft comprises of 9 roller bearings. The connecting rods are also mounted on their crank pins by means of rollers rotating directly on the crankshaft and in the connecting rod, which requires these two nickel-chrome-hardened chrome parts. The machining of this crankshaft required great precautions, in view of all the deformations that occur in the successive heat treatments of annealing, carburizing and quenching. 
• At the front of the engine there is a chain of gears which controls the oil pump, water pump, magneto (only one), compressor and camshafts. All these steel gearwheels, quenched by air, processed by 200 kg (?), have a width in accordance with the power they are to transmit; including the oil pump gearwheel that has a width of 3mm.
• A Roots-type, two-bladed compressor sucks in the air from a single carburetor and is connected to the cylinders through a steel pipe, on which the safety valves are located. The discharge pressure being much greater than 1 kg, the heat of compression of the gases is partly evacuated through vanes coming from the foundry with the compressor housing, which is located at the front to receive as much air as possible during working. The volumetric compression ratio is 5. The cooling is obtained by a centrifugal pump and radiator. 
• The lubrification is done by means of three gear pumps located in the oil bath housing. One sucks the oil into a radiator independent of the engine, distributing it to each bearing; from there it greases the connecting rods by centrifugal force. The other gear pump also sucks up oil into the radiator, ensuring the lubrication of the gearwheels, compressor and camshafts. The third pump, which is a drain pump, sucks oil from the crankcase so that there will never be any remaining oil, and returns it to the radiator. 
• The operating speed is 7,500 revolutions (the engine has rotated above 8,000 revolutions). Power and torque curves are almost straight lines. An average pressure greater than 16 kg. is achieved at the moment of maximum torque. 
• The dry-operated clutch is multi-disc to stay in a small diameter, in order to lessen the effects of centrifugal force. As in all these clutches, small springs are inserted between the discs to detach them at the moment of disengagement. They had to be mounted in a very special way to prevent them from unfolding under the action of the centrifugal force at 7,500 revolutions and to leave their axis completely. 
• The gearbox has 5 speeds (including one overdrive) and one reverse gear. There are three countershafts. The gearwheels are quenched by air, processed by 200 kg (?), allowing them to be small in relation to the transmitted power; but it makes machining them more difficult. At the rear of the box there is a mechanical servo-brake controlled by wheel and worm. The lubrication is ensured by a small pump located in the gearbox. 
• The transmission is done by two cardan joints mounted on ball bearings. The cardan shaft, having a length of 0,60m. and turning at 7,500 revs., in addition to the torsion power, undergoes a great stress through buckling. But considering its shape and composition of hardened steel, its critical speed is three times that of the engine. It should be noted that no rotation, through the chassis, takes place on a plain bearing; everything is mounted on rollers or on balls. 
• The foot brake acts on the four wheels via the mechanical servo-brake; a quick brake adjuster, allowed a shortening of cables by several centimeters, is interposed in the control. The fully independent handbrake acts on the rear wheels only. 
• The brake drums, which are excessively rigid and equipped with cooling fins, are made of steel treated at 160 kg. As for the jaws, they are also made of chrome nickel steel and taken in the mass (?), which gives them a high rigidity and a low weight. 
• The steering is one of the most delicate parts of the car as regards good handling, high accuracy at high speed and negligible wear. It is a system of 'vis et secteur' [don't know how to translate] (the screw being a single piece jointly with the steering column) and transmits its movement to the wheels by means of very rigid levers and rods, the levers being fixed on the rockets by means of plates. To improve directional clearance and remove [prevent?] reactions, the 'jumelles' [don't know how to translate] were placed at the front of the springs. 
• The whole assembly forms a flexible and very deformable frame, avoiding too much stress when passing the windings of roads or tracks; but this requires a three-point articulated mounting for the fuel tank and the oil cooler. 
• The large gasoline tank (150 liters) is located in the V-shaped rear section, giving it a rather complicated form. It contains a second small emergency tank, the passage from one to the other is easily made to operate by means of a three-way valve. The fuel arrives at the carburetor under pressure, upon starting the car supplied by a small hand pump, and running by a pulsator driven by the engine and located at the end of the camshaft. The filling of the large reservoir and that of the second emergency tank, is done by two large stoppers that can be dismantled in a quick way. 
• All petrol and oil pipes are, although rigid, designed to avoid being torn or broken in case of deformations of the chassis. 
• The honeycomb radiator is mounted at the front of the axle on two ball joints; it is covered with a fake radiator cover (sloped), hiding the front 'mains' [grips]. Its filling is done by a cap hidden under the hood but accessible without needing to lift the hood. 
• All the bolts of the car are made of special steel with a 100 kg high resistance to elongation. 
• The engine was off-centered to the left of 100 min (steering to the right) in order to better balance the car in the transverse direction (the driver being alone on board) and at the same time to provide a wide and comfortable seat and ample room for pedals. 
• The instruments on board are kept to a minimum, given the difficulty for the driver to look at them at great speed: a very large tachometer in which the zones of use and the boundary zones are tinted differently; an oil pressure gauge and an air pressure gauge regarding the fuel, the contact of the magneto. 
• The bodywork, made in an angle (?) of aluminium-coated duralumin, is made in two parts; its total weight is only 25 kg.
• The underside of the body is absolutely flat, [to prevent] resistance to forward movement; only one passage allows the entry of air going into the oil cooler. 
• The car at its highest point is 0,90m. from the ground and the top of the radiator is lower than the top of the wheels. The 1,30m. track gauge, 2,50m. wheelbase and maximum height of 0,90m. make the car look solid, stable and strong, for an unladen weight of 750kg.  
• The engine safely gives as many horses as possible; the car, with a reduced master-torque, has a minimum weight combined with the necessary strength. This results in a high speed with respect to the displacement and a speed of acceleration which is limited only by the adherence of the wheels the ground, since each horse carries only a dead weight of 5 kg.

 

 

PHOTOS

 

There are four categories in this section: photos of 1926, photos of 1927, photos from the period 1927-1936  and modern photos. The photos are indexed so that the first character is chassis number (1 - 6, U=unknown), the second character indicates the view (F=front, T=tail, L=left, R=right, I=interior, E=engine&gearbox, S=suspension&wheels; whereby the main focus of the photo is decisive. A photo taken of the left front section could be coded 'L' if it was slightly more to the left. Taken a bit more to the right it would be coded 'F'. The third, fourth and fifth character is the number of the photo as processed in the list. For example the hypothetical code '3F0353' would mean 'Chassis 3, front view, photo #353'. I'd like to recommend the participants and followers of this thread to save the photos, drawings and videos to their hard disk. The files can be named the provided codes. This way, on your hard disk you'll get a visual overview in logical order (per chassis, then per section).

 

To save the photos, right-click on the link and then select 'copy'. The text of the link is now copied to the computer's memory. Next, click on the link. In the newly opened browser tap, right-click on the photo and choose 'save image'. In the 'saved name' subscreen, paste the copied name (ctrl-v on Windows computer, command-v on Mac). Save the file, close the tab and go on to the next one. The same goes with Drawings. 

 

With images hosted by Flickr, choose 'original format' and save them to your hard disk. Locate the map they are saved in, rename them and copy them to your Delage image map. 

 

Referenced photos and drawings from copyrighted material (PDFs, books) can only be saved to your harddisk if you have the source. In a PDF you can save a separate page for example (if you want you can crop that page), while a book page can be scanned. Unfortunately due to copyright issues I cannot post or hyperlink those images here.

 

Videos can easily be downloaded in HD by using 4K Downloader, see here. One exception is V015 which is hosted by Cinecitta Luce. 

 

Many thanks to @Olivier de St Raph for allowing me to upload and use his photos of chassis 1 taken at Revs Institute. 

 

Photos 1926

- 01926-UR0040  01926-UF0042  01926-UR0053  01926-UL0189  01926-UL0192  01926-UR0209  01926-UR0219  01926-UR0227  01926-UR0246^30, P1

 

Photos 1927

- 01927-UF0039  01927-UL0041  01927-UF0043  01927-UF0044  01927-UE0049  01927-UF0052  01927-UR0054  01927-UL0055  01927-UF0183  01927-UF0186  01927-UF0188  01927-UF0189  01927-UL0191  01927-UF0193  01927-UF0200  01927-UL0203  01927-UR205  01927-UL0206  01927-UR0226  01927-UR0229  01927-UR0230  01927-UR0231A  01927-UR0231B 01927-UL0232  01927-UF0233  01927-UF0235  01927-UR0239 01927-UE0245^{30, P5} 

 

Photos 1928-1936 or unknown

- 01928-UF0128  01928-UF0045  01928-UR0129  01928-UL0172  01928-UR0184  01928-UR0185  01928-UL0187  01928-UF0190  01928-UR0194  01928-UL0195  01928-UF0196  01928-UF0197A  01928-UF0197B  01928-UE0199  01928-UF0202  01928-UF0204  01928-UR0207  01928-UF0208  01928-UL0209  01928-UF0209  01928-UF0210  01928-UF0211  01928-UF0212  01928-UR0228  01928-UF0234  01928-UL0240  01928-UE0241  01928-UL0242  01928-UL0243  01928-UR0244

 

Modern photos

Front section

- 1F0005  1F0007  1F0060  1F0146  1F0148  1F0164

- 2F0173  2F0174  2F0175  2F0177  2F0178  2F0217  2F0220  2F0221

- 4F0017  4F0018  4F0025  4F0035  4F0036  4F0037 4F0077  4F0080  4F0089  4F0099  4F0111  4F0116  4F0140

- 5F0056  5F0057  5F0058  5F0061  5F0063  5F0064  5F0066  5F0131  5F0133  5F0170  

 

Tail section

- 2T0224  2T0225

- 4T0021  4T0022  4T0034  4T0115  4T0117  4T0120  4T0142

- 5T0069  5T0134  5T0135  5T0166  5T0169  5T0181

- 6T0141

 

Left section

- 1L0001  1L0006  1L0149  1L0159

- 2L0160  2L0213

- 4L0079  4L0104  4L0144  4L0162

- 5L0059  5L0067  5L0163  5L0167  5L0168  5L0180

 

Right section

- 1R0008  1R0009  1R0013  1R0014  1R0075  1R0165

- 2R0051  2R0171  2R0176

- 4R0023  4R0024  4R0078  4R0113  4R0114  4R0143  4R0145

- 5R0065  5R0068  5R0132  5R0134

 

Interior

- 1I0002  1I0011  1I0012  1I0015  1I0155  1I0156  1I0073  1I0157

- 2I0216  2I0223

- 4I0020  4I0081  4I0082  4I0083  4I0088  4I0100  4I0101  4I0102  4I0103  4I0109  4I0110

- 5I0130  5I0137  5I0182

 

Engine&gearbox

- 1E0003  1E0150  1E0151  1E0152

- 2E0038 2E0147  2E0179  2E0214  2E0215  2E0222  

- 4E0016  4E0019  4E0026  4E0027  4E0028  4E0029  4E0030  4E0031  4E0085  4E0086  4E0087  4E0090  4E0091  4E0092  4E0095  4E0096  4E0097  4E0098   4E0105  4E0112  4E0118  4E0121  4E0122  4E0123  4E0124  4E0125  4E0126  4E0127  4E0129  4E0161

- 5E0048  5E0070  5E0071  5E0072  5E0136  5E0138  5E0139  5E0140  5E0237

- UE0046  UE0047      

 

Suspension&wheels

- 1S0010  1S0153  1S0154  1S0158

- 2S0218

- 4S0032  4S0033  4S0084  4S0106  4S0107  4S0108  4S0113  4S0119

- US0074  US0076

 

 

VIDEOS

 

V001: Tracktest and tune of chassis #4, extremely impressive onboard video of the car on track. Turn up the sound!

V002: Test runs and demonstration of engine, chassis #4, shaky imagery but sound is good. 

V003: Some more ear candy of the chassis #4 car, short video.

V004: ERA Delage, chassis #6, short video. 

V005: Test ride of chassis #1, bonnets off, unfortunately sound of the engine was too loud for the camera to record it without distortion. Better sound in V016. 

V006: Supercharged Grand Prix Cars 1924-1939, very interesting documentary with a lot of 1920s footage. Delage is seen from 9:30 to 10:20.

V007: Onboard footage of chassis #2 in a demonstration.

V008: Walking around chassis #4 showing off its fabulous engine and providing a nice view of the cockpit. 

V009: Short video of Chassis #1 in action, slowly but surely.

V010: Walking around chassis #1, focusing on suspension, this at first looks unpromising but proves to be an interesting reference video.

V011: Walking around a Delage, not sure what chassis number, perhaps an old recording of chassis #4 or chassis #2. Does anybody know?

V012: Chassis #4 running stationary and looking the part.

V013: Peter Giddings talking about chassis #1 and chassis #4, an interesting interview. 

V014: Original footage from the 1927 Brooklands Grand Prix containing several scenes in which the Delage is seen. 

V015: Original footage from the 1927 Italian Grand Prix containing a few scenes in which the Delage is seen.

V016: Short video of chassis #1 being tested. Better sound quality than V005. 

 

 

DRAWINGS

D001: left view of the car.

D002: five way view of the 1926 model, Kenneth Rush.

D003: five way view of the 1927 model, Kenneth Rush.

D004: engine cutaway drawing. 

D005: engine cutaway drawing.

D006A: engine cutaway seen from the front. 

D006B^{30, P6}: engine cutaway seen from the front, slightly better and larger version.

D007A: engine cutaway seen from the front. Mind that this drawing differs from D005. 

D007B: the negative version of D007A.

D008: cutaway drawing of the car.

D009: comparison of the 1926 - 1927 models.

D010: five way view of the 1927 model, Jim Ison.

D011: cutaway view + engine drawings of the 1927 model. 

D012: left side cutaway, drawn in 1942.

D013: carburetor drawing 1 (thanks Revs Institute)

D014: carburetor drawing 2 (thanks Revs Institute)

D015^{30, P7}: partial radiator and engine cutaway seen from the side.

 

 

MISCELLANEOUS

 

 

Sources of information and photographs:

1. https://www.retromobile.com/Visitors/Exhibitions-and-events/Events/Ninety-years-ago-a-French-manufacturer-won-the-world-Grand-Prix-championship-title-with-style. 

2. https://revsinstitute.org/the-collection/1927-delage/

3. http://autorestorations.co.nz/project/1927-delage-grand-prix/

4. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delage_155B

5. http://patrimoineautomobile.com/delage-1500-cc-1926/

6. http://patrimoineautomobile.com/delage-1500-cc-1926-23/

7. http://patrimoineautomobile.com/delage-1500-cc-1926-33/ 

8. http://www.forum-auto.com/automobiles-mythiques-exception/voitures-anciennes/sujet378018.htm 

9. http://www.supercars.net/blog/delage-15-s8/

10. http://www.sportscardigest.com/1926-delage-grand-prix-car-profile/

11. http://www.sportscardigest.com/1926-delage-grand-prix-car-profile/2/

12. http://petergiddings.com/Cars/delage.html

13. http://www.smcars.net/attachments/delage-gp-gif.35609/ 

14. http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/img/Delage-15-S8-22572.html

15. https://www.brooklandsmuseum.com/explore/our-collection/cars/gp-delage-Prix

16. http://revsinstitute.org/news/peter-giddings-interview-on-alfa-romeo-delage/

17. http://www.autoconcept-reviews.com/cars_reviews/delage/Delage-15-s8-1500-gp-1927/cars_reviews-Delage-15-s8-1500-gp-1927.html

18. http://shop.simonlewis.com/delage-610-c.asp (thanks CrazyCrank)

19. http://www.delage.org/index.php/

20. http://www.rmsothebys.com/lf07/automobiles-of-london/lots/1927-delage-15-s-8-grand-prix-car/192365

21. http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/march-1943/4/racing-car (thanks NickD) 

22. http://www.brooklandsarchives.co.uk

23. http://www.grandprixengines.co.uk/1st_Pressure-Charged_Era_(1PC).pdf (thanks NickD) 

24. http://www.grandprixengines.co.uk/Note_5.pdf

25. http://www.prewarcar.com/magazine/previous-features/e-r-a-six-cylinder-e10000-1-018190.html

26. https://www.classicdriver.com/en/car/delage/15-s-8-grand-prix-car/1927/131763

27. http://www.psychoontyres.co.uk/tag/twelve/

28. https://nl.pinterest.com/bertlion/delage-grand-prix/

29. http://www.grandprixhistory.org/delage15.htm

30. 'Albert Lory, the man with the slide rule' by Sébastien Faurès, booklet issued for 'Amis de Delage'

 

 

 

 

Yet to be processed:

• Book 'The 1926-1927 1 1/2 litre Delage 

[harveyb258]

Hi Roy.

 

You're off to a great start on this. I was unable to sleep last night, so I had a dig around the 'net and found some very useful material regarding the mechanicals and construction of this historic machine. You have probably seen exactly the same, so I'll refrain from adding anything until you have finished construction of this thread. 

 

Cheers, H

[Roy vd M.]

Thanks Harvey for the early adoption

 

Please do share your most interesting findings, if only for me to choose a logical order of process. If we have an original bible and three badly copied excerpts, I'd obviously prefer to use the first as a basis of info and then see if the excerpts have some additional info written to them. 

 

What I intend to do: go through all articles and sources I find online and process them using hyperlinks, making an alphabetical list of 'processed info' as I go along. That way we can keep it clear and easy to track what info was already implemented and what not. 

 

Some of the most useful information that I found so far has been this series of articles:

 

http://patrimoineautomobile.com/delage-1500-cc-1926/

http://patrimoineautomobile.com/delage-1500-cc-1926-23/ 

http://patrimoineautomobile.com/delage-1500-cc-1926-33/ 

 

In the last link you'll see a contemporary photo of the engine. I never would have thought that the original engine would have received a jewelled finish like the Rev's Institute version has:

 

 (Copyright Olivier de St Raph)

 

... because in my view there really isn't a good reason to apply all those turned steel swirls.... except to make the engine block nicer (who should have cared in 1927; it's a race car) or because at Delage they truly loved their cars. 

 

Now looking at the third link above, last photo (you can enlarge it) you can see that it actually was jewelled like that. Incredible... but also that means that, as @Hannes said in the Fiat thread, the engine will probably be the hardest part to make of all the car. As far as I can see it's best made out of metal and then meticulously jeweled. I might not see another choice but to use silver soldering on this model... not looking forward to that and I'll have to keep it a secret from my girlfriend

 

From @Olivier de St Raph I also learned that all six Delages (4 original racing team ones and 2 later specimens) will be reunited in Paris this February. I plan to go there, hoping to have a good opportunity to photograph the car extensively. I'll contact Rev's institute about that. Perhaps I can meet one or two members of the forum... Olivier? @CrazyCrank?

 

Anyway to end where I started, please don't hesitate to contribute all above-averagely interesting references (URL's, Youtube vids, etc.) that you come across. Under the 'miscellaneous' tab I'll already add some of the references I've found and will process.  

[CrazyCrank]

@Roy vd M.

Retromobile would be a great opportunity to meat us.

It happens from February 8 to 12 in Paris....

 

I have to check my planning because a lot of work to prepare my son's wedding in May, and unfortunately, with my parents health troubles, I have not better visibility than day by day

But if i'm free, it will be a great pleasure...However I cannot promise anything...

 

Furthermore, I'm very happy to join you on this new thread, and I'll try to continue following and contributing to the 806 one.

 

My first contributions: 

 

http://shop.simonlewis.com/delage-610-c.asp

 

And a video of a restored Delage 15S8

 

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by CrazyCrank

[NickD]

While looking for 806 data, I came across this article. Limited about the 806 but detailed with line drawings of the Delage. Hope it is of interest

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/march-1943/4/racing-car

Nick

[Roy vd M.]

21 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

I have to check my planning because a lot of work to prepare my son's wedding in May, and unfortunately, with my parents health troubles, I have not better visibility than day by day

But if i'm free, it will be a great pleasure...However I cannot promise anything...

 

Tickets will be booked shortly. Let's keep in contact, I fully understand your current uncertainties. If we could meet that would be awesome, if not then it will be another time, another place.

 

21 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

Furthermore, I'm very happy to join you on this new thread, and I'll try to continue following and contributing to the 806 one.

 

Nice... don't worry too much about this thread, it will slowly but surely come to live. Thanks for the first link, I did not see that before. 

 

21 hours ago, NickD said:

While looking for 806 data, I came across this article. Limited about the 806 but detailed with line drawings of the Delage. Hope it is of interest

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/march-1943/4/racing-car

Nick

 

Thanks Nick that link (to be precise, a drawing of the front of the engine) is by matter of coincident very useful to point out my first problem regarding the model. I've thought about it quite a bit and talked to other people to find a solution and I may have one... but I'd like to tell you guys my thoughts. Hopefully you can help me. ( @vontrips maybe?)

 

Using this photo again:

 

 

it can be seen that for some reason the Delage workmen have jeweled the cam covers (and most of the rest of the engine exterior). While this is beautiful of course (and I really try to understand why they did it for other than visual reasons... maybe they oiled the engine for preservation or cooling reasons and they found that the oil 'sticked' better like this), it doesn't make modeling the engine any easier. 

 

Making the swirls should not be that difficult I expect... it's a matter of using an abrasive on a mill-mounted circular soft drill bit and working as precise as possible. 

 

The real difficulty is to fabricate the basis of the camshaft cover in metal. I can't paint the metal because then I wouldn't be able to jewel it. I can't electroplate it because the top layer would be too thin... it would probably be 'swirled off'. Therefore I'd need to use steel-resembling metal. That means that all 'non-grey' metals and alloys such as copper and brass cannot be used. Steel is very difficult to turn and drill. Silver is too expensive. Iron is too brittle. Tin's melting temperature is too low. If I'm not missing anything two metals remain... aluminium and zinc.

 

First I'll show you the drawing that visualizes my idea on how to tackle this matter, then I'll discuss the possible use of aluminium and zinc. 

 

 

 

Explanation: I'd like to use a thick sheet of metal, shaped into the 'omega'-shape as seen in the overview drawing. Then I'll drill holes in it where the bolt raisings will be. Those raisings will be turned on the lathe and fitted inside the holes. Then they will be soldered so that the eventual workpiece will look as if it was cast in one piece.

 

Again, the whole thing needs to be made out of metal. Otherwise I won't be able to swirl it. 

 

Aluminium?

Gerald Wingrove says in his book that it is very difficult to silver solder aluminium. Coming from a man with his talents and experience, that should mean something. On the other hand, the book was written a few decades ago so hoping that technology might have improved I went to look online yesterday. I found a solder called Muggy Weld that really looks impressive. The problem of aluminium not changing color when heated is solved by the flux changing color when (sufficiently) heated using a propane torch. When the color changes the aluminium can be soldered. This video looks very impressive indeed.  

 

Another disadvantage of aluminium is that it will eventually get dull. That can probably be prevented by clear coating the part after jewelling. 

 

Zinc?

The second option is zinc but I wonder if it can be jeweled like that and if the final color will be right. The dulling of zinc could also (hopefully) be prevented by clear coating the part. 

 

My question

So what do you think? Should I try the aluminium or the zinc idea? Have I overlooked other options (other than using 'swirl decals' or painting them on or so... the latter is no option for me as it wouldn't look like the real thing... the decals would be only a 'last resort' option, if nothing else would work). I hope you metal workers and other smart people have some advice for me.

[NickD]

Checkout some of Airscale's work, the is a long spitfire thread. He builds a form and the sticks Aluminium shee to it. The cam covers on the cowl are a good example. The shape is compound but the results are convincing. If that worked here,it would be a simple matter to finish in anyway you chose.

 

When I saw Olivier's pics I wondered whether some of the finishes were too good. Would they really have done that on an active race car. It is a lot of work on a potentially shortlived item. It must have had a significant benefit to be worth doing.

Nick

[Schwarz-Brot]

I would go a completely different route. How about scratching the parts in an easy to work material, then build a form with heat resistant silicone and cast in white metal?

 

White metal is easy to cast or you could give away the job to someone who already has the equipment. Hardest part is getting a good working mould.

White metal is easy to polish and easy to work and gives you a completely massive part to work on. If you mess up it is just a matter of melting and pouring again...

Edited January 8, 2017 by Schwarz-Brot

[vontrips]

2 hours ago, Schwarz-Brot said:

I would go a completely different route. How about scratching the parts in an easy to work material, then build a form with heat resistant silicone and cast in white metal?

 

White metal is easy to cast or you could give away the job to someone who already has the equipment. Hardest part is getting a good working mould.

White metal is easy to polish and easy to work and gives you a completely massive part to work on. If you mess up it is just a matter of melting and pouring again...

I'd also suggest the white metal approach. Using modern lead free pewter mixes and RT101 red rubber...it's not a lot more involved than resin casting in truth.

 

Regarding aluminium, it is tricky to solder, largely because of it 's heat conductivity. Mentioned a product to Harvey yesterday and finally found it in my garage tonight. Bought from a show after watching their impressive demo's. Not used it in earnest yet and the stuff is very pricey! Not soldering per se; I'd call it friction brazing.

 

Alutight is the product...there's various YouTube clips on it, though I've not watched them yet!

 

Here you go; this is the guy I met. I have some of his demo samples and they are very strong joints!

 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by vontrips

[harveyb258]

Nice 1 John! 

[Roy vd M.]

4 hours ago, NickD said:

Checkout some of Airscale's work, the is a long spitfire thread. He builds a form and the sticks Aluminium shee to it. The cam covers on the cowl are a good example. The shape is compound but the results are convincing. If that worked here,it would be a simple matter to finish in anyway you chose.

 

Nick your reference to Airscale's work is of jewel-like quality as I'm only hoping to achieve on the Delage cam cover, as was your previous reference re. Blender. Great stuff! I had a look at it and am deeply impressed. 

 

I think you specifically meant this post.. the covers look great, for sure, but my problem is trying to get the rods in (see my drawing, overview). 

 

When I saw Olivier's pics I wondered whether some of the finishes were too good. Would they really have done that on an active race car. It is a lot of work on a potentially shortlived item. It must have had a significant benefit to be worth doing.

I also doubted that they would use that on a racing car. Why would they? But then I saw this picture:

 

 

(Copyright unknown, seen here, educational and referential purposes only, photo will be deleted upon first request by the beneficiary to the copyrights) 

 

... and that changed my mind. The above photo seems to be contemporary. Click on it to see that the block really has the jewelling everywhere. 

 

Also it is seen on the car (chassis #1) that is said to be all original. 

 

My guess would be that Louis Delage, apparently a petrolhead himself, wanted his racing cars to look like as high quality as the regular Delages. What I understand is that they were about as exclusive and expensive as Bugattis.

 

 

(Copyright Ultimatecarpage.com, photo will be deleted upon first request, educational and referential purposes only) 

 

4 hours ago, Schwarz-Brot said:

I would go a completely different route. How about scratching the parts in an easy to work material, then build a form with heat resistant silicone and cast in white metal?

 

White metal is easy to cast or you could give away the job to someone who already has the equipment. Hardest part is getting a good working mould.

White metal is easy to polish and easy to work and gives you a completely massive part to work on. If you mess up it is just a matter of melting and pouring again...

 

That's something I had not considered before. Great thinking... do you reckon the 'turned white metal' jeweling would resemble the Delage? A disadvantage I see is that to get an even look I'd have to make the entire engine out of white metal. 

 

This is going to be a very realistic option though. Thanks for thinking out of the (my) box!

 

1 hour ago, vontrips said:

I'd also suggest the white metal approach. Using modern lead free pewter mixes and RT101 red rubber...it's not a lot more involved than resin casting in truth.

 

Regarding aluminium, it is tricky to solder, largely because of it 's heat conductivity. Mentioned a product to Harvey yesterday and finally found it in my garage tonight. Bought from a show after watching their impressive demo's. Not used it in earnest yet and the stuff is very pricey! Not soldering per se; I'd call it friction brazing.

 

Alutight is the product...there's various YouTube clips on it, though I've not watched them yet!

 

Here you go; this is the guy I met. I have some of his demo samples and they are very strong joints!

[video]

 

That looks like it's comparable or even similar to the US Muggy Weld product.

 

Good to see that there are now at least two potentially workable options. What a great forum this, yet again, proves to be. 

[harveyb258]

He wanted the engine to look sweeeeeet! And oh yes it does! It won't be a hard engine-build though, guys.... trust me!

 

Cheers, H

[vontrips]

Roy, it's been off my radar for a while but I remember thinking they were similar products.

 

When you mentioned jeweling I assumed you meant 'hand scraping' that was done on the Bugatti blocks...allegedly used to take one an a week to produce that finish! Now I see that pic I see you meant what's also termed 'engine turning' which may give you greater search scope. Jeepers, that is impressive workmanship. I like the way the pattern 'dithers' around curved surfaces which has the hallmarks of hand application. Would white metal help? Yes, it's softer so would take a spun effect easily. Getting into those contours would be an utter nightmare and I'm at a loss for suggestions. I dabbled with doing the 806 dash like this...that was using a flat sheet and my mill table to take accurate steps. This engine block is a different kettle of fish indeed!

 

MFH do a metallic engine turned sticker sheet. Bought as an impulse buy...it's rubbish!

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by vontrips

[harveyb258]

I would be very tempted to use nickel-silver for the engine, Roy....it reacts to heat very well, it's very easy to solder and polishes up beautifully.

 

Cheers, H

[Schwarz-Brot]

14 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

That's something I had not considered before. Great thinking... do you reckon the 'turned white metal' jeweling would resemble the Delage? A disadvantage I see is that to get an even look I'd have to make the entire engine out of white metal. 

 

This is going to be a very realistic option though. Thanks for thinking out of the (my) box!

 

You're welcome!

polished white metal looks silvery and very shiny and keeps that shine usually. If you don't get tin pest, that is. Over time and certain conditions and probably depending on the exact alloy used tin alloys can corrode or bloom. This happened a lot to certain makes of tin soldiers of the eighties and older. A clear coat would prevent that surely. This may veeeeery slightly be tinted to knock back the shine a bit, if it is too much.

 

I am pretty sure the motors were not actually polished, only smoothened to a blanc and pretty even surface. Technically I can think of several reasons for this: The engine parts were cast parts most likely.

- A blank surface allows for easier quality control on those highly stressed parts. Cracks from bad casts are next to impossible to find by eye on the rough surface you get with metal casting.

- A blank surface allows to see cracks and problems more easy on a working motor. Under race conditions it is the easiest way to optically identify a problem without the eye being mislead by rough and coloured surfaces. Excessive Pre-installation testing would benefit as well. Also, cracks would only show up on a painted or rough surface when it is probably too late (engine already blown).

- A blank surface is way easier to clean. Oil, water, dirt, grime. Whatever you get on there - it comes off quite easily with the right solvent. On a rough surface this wouldn't come off completely.

- the blank surface might cool down better then a scaled one which has effectively more surface but probably with worse heat conducting properties. As I get it this motor revved very high for its time.

 

There may be more reasons, but I am pretty sure it was not done barely for the optics.

[Hannes]

The 1926 car would be the most interesting for me . As I can see ,none of these cars still exists and therefore it won´t be easy to print out  this version in the future .

I was reading something about drivers , who were cooling their legs in buckets full of champagne ! I want to wish Roy and all the other members a full success !

But I will concentrate my focus on the 806 next time.There´s a lot to do... Many greetings !  Hannes

[Jnkm13]

Hi Roy,

 

Not sure if this is the same car, but it's something which you might be interested in.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-12-KIT-1927-Delage-1500-Grand-Prix-Monza-GP-winner-with-driver-R-Benoist-/192031023948?hash=item2cb5f0e34c:g:U3cAAOSwal5YLwux

 

Regards,

Jeremy

[CrazyCrank]

3 hours ago, Jnkm13 said:

Hi Roy,

 

Not sure if this is the same car, but it's something which you might be interested in.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-12-KIT-1927-Delage-1500-Grand-Prix-Monza-GP-winner-with-driver-R-Benoist-/192031023948?hash=item2cb5f0e34c:g:U3cAAOSwal5YLwux

 

Regards,

Jeremy

 

it seems to be the same car, but on this eBay offer, we cannot see detail's level, and, IMHO, on the face of it, it looks like a very basic model...not sure the price asked for is justified 

[Roy vd M.]

On 1/9/2017 at 0:10 AM, harveyb258 said:

He wanted the engine to look sweeeeeet! And oh yes it does! It won't be a hard engine-build though, guys.... trust me!

 

I think they couldn't have made it much easier for us

 

On 1/9/2017 at 0:14 AM, vontrips said:

Roy, it's been off my radar for a while but I remember thinking they were similar products.

 

Good to know. Then I'll probably get the UK version as I expect that to be cheaper (and delivered faster).

 

On 1/9/2017 at 0:14 AM, vontrips said:

When you mentioned jeweling I assumed you meant 'hand scraping' (...) Now I see that pic I see you meant what's also termed 'engine turning' which may give you greater search scope.

 

Thanks.

 

On 1/9/2017 at 0:14 AM, vontrips said:

Jeepers, that is impressive workmanship. I like the way the pattern 'dithers' around curved surfaces which has the hallmarks of hand application. Would white metal help? Yes, it's softer so would take a spun effect easily. Getting into those contours would be an utter nightmare and I'm at a loss for suggestions. I dabbled with doing the 806 dash like this...that was using a flat sheet and my mill table to take accurate steps. This engine block is a different kettle of fish indeed!

 

I wonder if the engineers at Fiat were that keen on getting as 'beautiful' a surface as they were at Delage. In a 1926 article about the 15-S-8 the author wrote:

 

"As always, Louis Delage demands something new, something beautiful, something great."

 

... while at Fiat they were probably mainly preoccupied with trying to get the car to be as good and as fast as possible so that it could participate in the race. The Fiat having very elegant lines and probably being a more beautiful car than the Delage, I'm not so sure that was really the designers' intentions. That having said, we don't know of course, so there is no convincing reason not to do it. 

 

Re. the spun effect in contours... I was thinking of trying to use flexible sanding pads for that.

 

On 1/9/2017 at 0:26 PM, harveyb258 said:

I would be very tempted to use nickel-silver for the engine, Roy....it reacts to heat very well, it's very easy to solder and polishes up beautifully.

 

I will have to look into that, nice suggestion. So the three options:

 

1) Aluminium brazing;

2) White metal casting;

3) Nickel silver soldering.

 

On 1/9/2017 at 2:42 PM, Schwarz-Brot said:

A clear coat would prevent that surely. This may veeeeery slightly be tinted to knock back the shine a bit, if it is too much.

 

Check. 

 

On 1/9/2017 at 2:42 PM, Schwarz-Brot said:

I am pretty sure the motors were not actually polished, only smoothened to a blanc and pretty even surface. 

 

By 'polished' do you mean engine turned? If so, do you think Photo the picture of my previous post was made after the race season? If so, why would they have taken the trouble to apply the effect at that point in time? Perhaps it isn't logical to spend so much time and energy on engine turning on a race car -before the first race-, but I'd say that it would be even less logical to do so afterwards.

 

On 1/10/2017 at 7:44 PM, Hannes said:

The 1926 car would be the most interesting for me . As I can see ,none of these cars still exists and therefore it won´t be easy to print out  this version in the future .

I was reading something about drivers , who were cooling their legs in buckets full of champagne ! I want to wish Roy and all the other members a full success !

But I will concentrate my focus on the 806 next time.There´s a lot to do... Many greetings !  Hannes

 

First of all welcome to the thread Hannes. 

 

For the sake of terminology (and it was a question I had before): all 1926 cars still exist, but they were all integrally changed for 1927 season. In total, only four 15-S-8 Delage racing team chassis every existed. 

 

Personally I don't really care if they could print out the (this?) car in the future... Not sure there is a huge market for this car in 1/12th scale. Anyway to me the 1927 version is much more pleasing to the eye, is historically more important and can be modeled accurately (several references are present). 

 

Re. cooling drivers leges in buckets full of champagne... I doubt that. I was able to find a detailed report on those races. My summary (references to the sources in the opening post):

 

Drivers didn't care for the new Delage at all. On a warm day they were parboiled. Driver changes in one race were so frequent that the entire team was disqualified. At Brooklands (the third race the Delages participated in), a pan of cold water was kept for relief during pit stops. "One could actually hear boots hissing as they went into it", one driver commented. Still, Delage did win its first race of the season that day^{2 5}. For detailed info on the 1926 season see article #5 (paragraph starting with 'Louis Delage n'entend pas'). If you are interested in reading about the intoxication of Robert Benoist, the hospitalization of Morel and burnt foot plus headache of Bourlier, all during the Spanish Grand Prix, see the same article, paragraph 'Confirmant une vélocité'. The Delages did not compete in the last race of the 1926 season (Monza) because the cars simply were not fit for the job⁵. 

 

The main problems with the 1926 car were that the engine and transmission box were too close to the driver  (the transmission shaft almost touched the hip of the driver), the exhaust was near the driver's feet (hence the burnt feet) and finally the exhaust fumes that were highly toxic (40% benzol, 20% alcohol, 40% petroleum and a bit of ether) went straight into the cockpit (hence the intoxications). Lory made emergency modifications for the remaining 1926 race. For more information on the ending of 1926 race season, see article #5, paragraph starting with "Consolation".

 

On 1/11/2017 at 9:29 AM, Jnkm13 said:

Not sure if this is the same car, but it's something which you might be interested in.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-12-KIT-1927-Delage-1500-Grand-Prix-Monza-GP-winner-with-driver-R-Benoist-/192031023948?hash=item2cb5f0e34c:g:U3cAAOSwal5YLwux

 

23 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

it seems to be the same car, but on this eBay offer, we cannot see detail's level, and, IMHO, on the face of it, it looks like a very basic model...not sure the price asked for is justified 

 

Jeremy also welcome to the thread, great to have you aboard. Actually I had found this advertisement last week and I agree with Thierry that it's a very basic model. The body was cast in resin (whereas I intend to use metal) and there doesn't seem to be an engine. Parts of the suspension and other details of the car appear to be missing. My (unverified) theory about this seller is that he used several blueprints available online, produced molds in 1/12th scale and cast some resin specimens. Like Thierry I am not sure the price is reasonable, but I'm not interested anyway as I intend to build this model in an entirely different way. The only thing that attracts me in his model is the wheels + tyres (although they could be of the wrong size, for example if he used a general 'averaged' wheel casting for several of his models) as well as the shape of the body. That really looks good. But still I don't know how accurate it is.

[Codger]

Roy, this is a fascinating and highly ambitious project you have chosen. It presents numerous technical problems which will be satisfying to solve, and I know you will.

 

I am almost embarrassed to present a very unsophisticated solution for the finish of the engine bits. Surely the member's proposals cited above are highly technical. And worth exploring.

 

My thought goes back to my youth when I did sign lettering and pinstriping. The basics are these:

Make a master (in the case of the cam covers) of any suitable material(s) - it can even be Milliput on Renshape- make a mold and cast it (solid) in very fine resin. You would need a smoothness like fine injection molded plastic. Then, coat the part in size and apply silver leaf sheet. With practice this can be swirled - engine turned- and clear coated for protection. The randomness of the leaf application would aid the appearance.

 

I know this 'low-rent' idea is not in keeping with the machine work and fabrication you contemplate but should it work, it would allow more time for complex solutions to the structural problems rather than appearance items.

C

 

 

 

 

[Roy vd M.]

Codger I'm glad that you like the project and I hope I'll be able to somehow fulfill expectations! 

 

Despite your modesty you brought an interesting fourth option to the methods of making the cam covers. Before making my decision on which to try first I'll study all four options in detail. Thank you for your input.

 

8 hours ago, Codger said:

it would allow more time for complex solutions

 

I'm afraid that I have a similar project philosophy as you... I'll take as much time as required for as pleasing a result as reasonably possible taken into account my limited modeling skills, for all aspects of my build. That having said, I won't mind spending less time if the end results won't be affected. 

[Roy vd M.]

As I learn more about the car, read more articles and see more photos I get more and more impressed by this very remarkable little racer and its creators. 

 

Due to copyright issues and also to keep the opening post as short and clear as possible I don't show the pictures. Instead I index them, making it easy for those who are interested in the car to click on the links, right-click and save the pics. If, when saving the photos, the same coding system is used as I have, in the opening post, then easy references can be made and as a bonus all images are arranged in a logical order (first all 1926 photos, next all 1927-1936 photos, next all photos of chassis #1 as seen from the front, next chassis #1 as seen from the rear, from the left, etc., next on to chassis #2 front view, and so on and so forth.

 

Some pictures I'd like to share, just to give an impression of what i found.

 

(Copyright Dirk de Jager at Supercars.net, educational and referential purposes only, picture will be deleted upon first request)

 

This picture reminds me of an article mentioning Louis Delage having said that he wanted the new race car to be beautiful and impressive. I can just imagine the car's designer Mr Lory sitting in Mr Delage's office:

 

- "Monsieur Delage we made the engine as long and as impressive as we reasonably could, for its mere 1,5 liters. Any more cylinders and they would be as small as champagne corks".

- "Monsieur Lory, the block looks impressive. But it is not impressive enough."

- "That is why, Mr Delage, we also made the supercharger as long as possible and we decided to put it in front of the block. Oh and by the way the whole car is filled with roller bearings... we'd like it to run smooth and safe on 8.000 RPM".

- "Good to hear Mr Lory. And does it work?"

- "Oh yes Mr Delage, it runs nicer than any engine has ever run before".

 

 

Next this:

 

 

(Copyright Richard Own at Supercars.net, educational and referential purposes only, picture will be deleted upon first request)

 

I wonder how many cars had had wings like these in 1927 or before. Looks quite modern for the time. Does anybody have an idea about this?

Edited January 13, 2017 by Roy vd M.

[CrazyCrank]

4 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

As I learn more about the car, read more articles and see more photos I get more and more impressed by this very remarkable little racer and its creators. 

 

Due to copyright issues and also to keep the opening post as short and clear as possible I don't show the pictures. Instead I index them, making it easy for those who are interested in the car to click on the links, right-click and save the pics. If, when saving the photos, the same coding system is used as I have, in the opening post, then easy references can be made and as a bonus all images are arranged in a logical order (first all 1926 photos, next all 1927-1936 photos, next all photos of chassis #1 as seen from the front, next chassis #1 as seen from the rear, from the left, etc., next on to chassis #2 front view, and so on and so forth.

 

Some pictures I'd like to share, just to give an impression of what i found.

 

(Copyright Dirk de Jager at Supercars.net, educational and referential purposes only, picture will be deleted upon first request)

 

This picture reminds me of an article mentioning Louis Delage having said that he wanted the new race car to be beautiful and impressive. I can just imagine the car's designer Mr Lory sitting in Mr Delage's office:

 

- "Monsieur Delage we made the engine as long and as impressive as we reasonably could, for its mere 1,5 liters. Any more cylinders and they would be as small as champagne corks".

- "Monsieur Lory, the block looks impressive. But it is not impressive enough."

- "That is why, Mr Delage, we also made the supercharger as long as possible and we decided to put it in front of the block. Oh and by the way the whole car is filled with roller bearings... we'd like it to run smooth and safe on 8.000 RPM".

- "Good to hear Mr Lory. And does it work?" "Oh yes Mr Delage, it runs nicer than any engine has ever run before".

 

 

Next this:

 

 

(Copyright Dirk de Jager at Supercars.net, educational and referential purposes only, picture will be deleted upon first request)

 

I wonder how many cars had had wings like these in 1927 or before. Looks quite modern for the time. Does anybody have an idea about this?

 

These "wings" do not seem to be stabilizer, but it would rather be aerodynamic mudguards to prevent gravel chippings toward the driver...whaqt do you think of that idea ?

 

It was my first thought seeing these appendices, and I said to me: you're crazy, Thierry...Later reading some posts on french forum, I've read the same interpretation !

 

They are shaped like plane wings, according to N.A.CA (National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics) studies started in 1920 in Langley USA....

See this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NACA_airfoil

 

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by CrazyCrank

[NickD]

Roy,

 

You missed out a line from the conversation:

"...And Monsieur Delage, did you notice just how many bolts I managed to use to attach the cam covers. Those things are never coming off" -LOL

 

On the "wings" - I'd go with Thierry's interpretation - they are horizontal and behind the front wheels - not likely to do much aerodynamically methinks. Curiously they seem to be pivoted inboard - I wonder why. Perhaps not pivoted just easily removable.

 

Nick

[Roy vd M.]

Ok the mudguard idea is a bit unromantic, but I must admit that you both are probably right. Still I like the aerodynamic shape it has. 

 

@CrazyCrank that's one seriously difficult to comprehend Wikipedia page... (for me at least). When I was even younger than I still am ()  I used to fly sailplanes and although of course I understand the basics of flying (I'd recommend that to anyone prior to being pulled up there) I never managed to fully understand all the physics theories surrounding the principle of flight. Remarkably, after some 80 lessons or so, the gliding club will just let you fly around on your own without certificate and you will only need the certificate if you want to fly greater distances or participate in contests. In all, one shouldn't be surprised to learn that I'll politely pass on that Wikipedia page   What I'll keep in mind is the date (1920)... the Delage engineering team may well have been influenced by these studies. It seems that the 1926 cars did not have the 'wings', they first appeared in 1927. 

 

@NickD You're right, that would make one sufficiently filled basket full of bolts! 4 per cylinder... 

 

On the other hand you can see that the engineers did everything to reduce weight. I had no idea, again, that this was done on a Grand Prix car of 1927. I really (naively) was under the impression that this kind of detail work started on cars from the 60s or so. See here some examples of weight reduction:

 

 

 

 

 

(Resp. a lot of drilled holes in the top picture, and scalloped aluminium to follow the rivets, both executed to reduce weight)

 

These and other photos to be found here, copyright Sportscardigest.com, educational, referential and awe-inspiring purposes only, photos will be deleted upon first request.