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Tomoshenko

Airfix Dambuster - 1/72 Avro Lancaster B.III

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6 hours ago, moaning dolphin said:

So I'm a bit late to the party on this one, just caught up! Very nice work on the innards, I do like the take away foil idea (although all our takeaways seem to come in cardboard!). I have this in my to do pile so will follow along attentively, because it doesn't seem to be EDSG and white my knowledge on this type is quite limited. I also have the Revell version, one will be a Dam Buster and the other will be a late war Canadian variant. Looking forward to blatantly plagiarizing what I see here :D.

 

Bob

 

Ahoy from another Nova Scotian.

You could use the foil cover from a can of ground coffee or a tin of mixed nuts. I 've used that type of foil before, for various things.

 

 

Chris

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22 hours ago, Mancunian airman said:

 

I dont think they had a separate line for the production of these 21 aircraft but as I understand they were designated as aircraft to carry 'stores' and as such came off the line with a modified bomb-bay. Top turret merely had a hatch cover to reduce weight so to be able to carry the 'stores'. The arms, from which the bomb spun were added at Boscome Down where the prototype was evaluated.

Remember, there was a war on and the people (workers) were aware for secretly,  such things were easier to pass off without to much detail being released to the staff at Avro's.

It was a seperate line, as they were built in total secrecy from the rest of the production run, the fear being that a sudden switch to a different design would alert both the staff and German spies that something big was coming. Which is why AVRo were happy to have that area back once all aeroplanes were built

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I would like to see official documents to confirm a separate line ??

 

Cant see an area in the factory being available for all the components required to build a Lancaster . . .

 

Different design ? Only the modified bomb-bay surely

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I'd like to see more on this, if possible.  I've never given it a lot of thought  and always supposed that they were standard machines diverted after completion but before delivery to a mod. shop.  Then on to trials and finally the squadron.

 

Apart from the disproportionate effort involved, setting up a separate line would seem a sure way to attract unwanted attention?

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8 hours ago, Mutley said:

It was a seperate line, as they were built in total secrecy from the rest of the production run, the fear being that a sudden switch to a different design would alert both the staff and German spies that something big was coming. Which is why AVRo were happy to have that area back once all aeroplanes were built

 

The aeroplanes were taken from the main production line as they became available: the modifications to enable them to carry and deliver Upkeep were undertaken away from this area.  The mods were not undertaken at Boscombe Down as this was a specialist test and evaluation establishment?  The dorsal turret was not replaced with a hatch cover, simply a circular plate riveted over its hole.  

 

These 21 aeroplanes were referred to as "Type 464 provisioning" (Type 464 was the Vickers designation for Upkeep) meaning that they had provision to carry the weapon (sorry if there's some egg-sucking teaching here).  Avro type numbers started at 500, so this reference on drawings, orders or correspondence might take a little bit of working out by anyone not directly concerned with the programme.  

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In another thread, I asked about publications on the technical development of the Lancaster.

 

I received a lot of helpful suggestions.

 

This discussion on the 464 Provisioning Lancaster merits some citation of sources, if they indeed are to hand.

 

It would be great if these could surface.

 

Michael

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Thanks for the insight gents. The separate / quasi separate line does sound plausible. Anybody got any links?

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I'm with Mutley, Mancunian and Stever219 on the matter of standard airframes being taken from the production line.   All references I've seen say this in different ways. The Lancasters (Avro type 683, originally called Manchester III) used for the dams raid were modified to specifications provided by Vickers - modified bomb-bay, mine supporting arms and installation of a Vickers hydraulic motor to spin the mine, etc.  The Type 464 special provisioning nomenclature was Vickers. One aircraft was tested at Boscombe Down.  I guess the removal of the mid-upper turret was suggested by Avro.  I'm not sure where tge modifications were carried out but there is reference to the Avros doing a lot of work very quickly to permit enough airframes to be available in time for training and the raid itself.

 

Deivery of the last airframe to RAF Scampton was on the morning of the raid (again, this is stated by many fairly recent books about the raid).  One airframe was damaged during training (a mine was dropped too low and the splash damaged the tailplane and possibly the fins) and despite best efforts couldn't be repaired in time). It seems some airframes were converted to standard layout after the raid but some were retained - used post war to drop unused mines (filled but without fuses) in the north sea after the end of WW2.

 

i hope this helps ...

 

Jonny

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4 hours ago, Jonny said:

It seems some airframes were converted to standard layout after the raid but some were retained - used post war to drop unused mines (filled but without fuses) in the north sea after the end of WW2.

 

I was very fortunate many years ago to interview a number of Australian-resident 617SQN aircrew (none had been on the dams raid but some joined the squadron just after). They confirmed the aircraft had been retained unmodified (much to my surprise at the time) and that they were referred to as "The freaks" and never went anywhere until after the war to drop the Upkeep stocks.

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Call me tardy if you like, I feel such a dippysticker for missing this from the start

 

Can you go back to the beginning please Tomo

 

Whip me out of the opening credits too and off into oblivion..............

 

(anyone wondering why? its because I have two builds a going with only a slight interconnection which have taken up some of my available spare brain space...  What do you think Tomo,,will that get me out of the shhhemooley?)

 

I love the map holders and the floor, brilliant

 

You wait til your local 'fast food' outlet opts for plastic instead of kit modding ally containers, mines gone all skinny soapy plastic which wont even harden enough to mould out of  :(

 

 

 

(Nice to see the Stuka today, very nice so I voted for it)

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22 hours ago, perdu said:

Call me tardy if you like, I feel such a dippysticker for missing this from the start

 

Can you go back to the beginning please Tomo

 

Whip me out of the opening credits too and off into oblivion..............

 

(anyone wondering why? its because I have two builds a going with only a slight interconnection which have taken up some of my available spare brain space...  What do you think Tomo,,will that get me out of the shhhemooley?)

 

I love the map holders and the floor, brilliant

 

You wait til your local 'fast food' outlet opts for plastic instead of kit modding ally containers, mines gone all skinny soapy plastic which wont even harden enough to mould out of  :(

 

 

 

(Nice to see the Stuka today, very nice so I voted for it)

 

Thanks Bill. No sweat about missing the start and coming in at the interval, it will be repeated at some point on BBC2 late at night (with subtitles for those who don’t speak Brummagen).

 

I think the answer to keeping up with all yours (and other folk’s) threads, plus giving me multiple votes, is genetic engineering and whip yourself up a few Perdu clones. Start a thread in the Other Modelling Genres forum.

 

As for running out of take-away tinfoil supplies, Moseley is a bit reactionary as you know so can’t see that happening yet. Plus I have enough supplies stockpiled to make enormous amounts of map holders, belts, and other detaily bits n bobs. And when I say enormous amounts I mean Stephen Hawking type numbers.

 

Well anyroad a brief update, I’ve been carrying on with a little more detailing. Here are the sidewalls:

 

IMG_1523.jpg

 

IMG_1522.jpg

 

The handrail and seat plus cushions are dry-fitted for now. I didn’t care much for the kit offering as it was a little too thick so I replaced it with milliput.

 

Next up I thought I’d add some details to the navigation area to include navigation instruments – protractor and compass. My plan is to have the maps in my previous posts above on the desk with the navigation aids lying on top, an effect sort of like in the penultimate photo:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-36132331

 

Now I know in reality during a war it is unlikely that maps and charts would be left lying around, especially for a Dambusters mission, but I think it’s a nice touch…well I hope so if it comes off.

 

IMG_1526.jpg

 

I’ve also made a fire extinguisher. This won’t be on the desk of course, it will go just behind the pilot’s seat. I know it’s not quite Nigel Heath standard, but I do like these little touches, even if it does look a bit lumpy and overscale. I also made a light. Here’s a different angle:

 

IMG_1529.jpg

 

The lamp will be sticking out the side wall or summat, not left lying on the desk obviously.

 

I’ll probably add a few more details to the front end, and turrets, but almost ready for paint. Back in a bit.

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25 minutes ago, Tomoshenko said:

Moseley is a bit reactionary as you know so

 

Understatement of the year.

 

img035.jpg

 

 

I know, different spelling, but low-hanging fruit and all.

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I like to think he’d have got a bloody nose if he and his cronies had turned up in Moseley. Our local boy was Neville Chamberlain...  although Joseph Priestley had plotted up just down the road over a hundred years earlier and we had the infamous Priestley / Birmingham riots.

 

Right then. Little hiccup in that I bust my 0.5mm punch. Sent an email to RP Toolz inquiring about a replacement, they responded immediately requesting my address. They then sent me a replacement free of charge. Nice one lads for top draw customer service.

 

IMG_1518.jpg

 

Anyroad a bit more detailing in the front end. First off I knocked up the bomb aiming computing bomb sight. It’s quite a Charles Babbage affair, and probably had the equivalent processing power of a Sinclair Spectrum 48k. But here it is out of plastic bits and Albion Alloy rod and bits of foil.

 

IMG_1532.jpg

 

Next up was the camera aperture in the fuselage. I drill out the hole and glued in a piece of clear plastic sprue. The kit provides a small shaft. Now I have seen one Chastise Lanc with such a small tube protruding on the exterior, but pretty much all other piccies I’ve seen just have the small porthole.

 

IMG_1537.jpg

 

I trimmed off the excess sprues and sanded it back nice and smooth. It’s not a good photo and I need to finish it off. Whether or not I’ll add the surrounding tube I’ll decide later. The spot just to the bottom left of the pothole is where I drilled a locating hole for the camera mount too far through and had to make repairs.

 

IMG_1556.jpg

 

Here are the finished bits, camera and mount, care of scratch built plastic, and the mount being nickel rod and take-away tinfoil. I suspect the F24 camera is a little over scale but from what reference pics I’ve seen they are pretty hefty beasts.

 

IMG_1542.jpg

 

The kit bomb sight mechanism is dwarfed by the rather clunky mount:

 

IMG_1557.jpg

 

I painstakingly made a replacement from folded take-away tinfoil and nickel rod. It is oh so very delicate. I suspect the Chastise Lancs may have had it stripped out to save weight as it wouldn’t be needed. Please forgive a little whatiffery but I was in Magnuss Magnusson Mastermind mode – I’d started so I was damned well going to finish!

 

IMG_1563.jpg

 

Here it is in place with a handle thingybob added. I will add a small acetate lens once painted

 

IMG_1565.jpg

 

IMG_1569.jpg

 

Here it is with all the bits dry-fitted just to give you some representation – yes I know the camera will need to be placed in the mount, but it kept falling out!

 

IMG_1573.jpg

 

IMG_1576.jpg

 

I’ll add a few wires and hydraulics just to busy it up a little further. Yep I suspect little of this will be seen, but hey I know it’s there. Next up will be adding a few extra bits n bobs to the front turret. Shock horror, paint may not be that far off.

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Fiddly and just rather tastily so too, I tells ye

 

I think Joe would have been proud of Nev, he did the best he could of a really evil job dealing mit der fluererer

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I was going to joke 'don't forget to the camera as well' and what do you know? You'd already got it built! This is absolutely superb work Tomo, plus an education in Lanc parts to boot.

Bravo!

Tony

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Did not all the Operation Chastise Lancs have the regular bombsight removed and the bombardier used this handheld device?

 

IMG_0246.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

Edited by dogsbody

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7 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Did not all the Operation Chastise Lancs have the regular bombsight removed and the bombardier used this handheld device?

 

IMG_0246.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

Yes they did have that complex,  hard and expensive to produce bomsights on that mission. Don't know if the normal bombsights were left off or not.This was for checking the right distance to the dam. They were exactly right,, when the two small houses on the dam were hidden by the sticks on the wood. Cheers

Edited by bbudde

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Actually, the sight used depended on which of the three dams the crew was tasked to destroy. Not all had the two towers (in fact, only the Moehne did, IIRC).

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Thank you gents.

 

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 7:25 PM, perdu said:

Fiddly and just rather tastily so too, I tells ye

 

I think Joe would have been proud of Nev, he did the best he could of a really evil job dealing mit der fluererer

Cheers Bill. I agree. Nev was a much-maligned man given the circumstances he was in, and this overshadows a lot of decent stuff he did for Brum.

 

 

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 2:05 AM, dogsbody said:

Did not all the Operation Chastise Lancs have the regular bombsight removed and the bombardier used this handheld device?

 

IMG_0246.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

 

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 7:21 AM, bbudde said:

Yes they did have that complex,  hard and expensive to produce bomsights on that mission. Don't know if the normal bombsights were left off or not.This was for checking the right distance to the dam. They were exactly right,, when the two small houses on the dam were hidden by the sticks on the wood. Cheers

 

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 9:46 AM, Bell209 said:

Actually, the sight used depended on which of the three dams the crew was tasked to destroy. Not all had the two towers (in fact, only the Moehne did, IIRC).

 

 

Aargh you guys are finding me stuff to do :P You are absolutely right of course, that is the bomb sight they used, and I’m kicking myself because after your prompts I can remember it vividly from the film. Also a brief search on tinternet produces oodles of images. And as I am building Gibson’s stead, which attacked the Möhne Dam, then this would have been used.

 

Right up, what to do? Well to be honest I suspect the MkXIV bombsight probably would have been removed. Anyroad, after spending ages scratching one I decided to leave it in….but…knock up a Chastise bombsight.

 

Where to put it though? It certainly would be out of place on the navigators table. Then it occurred to me that as the kit doesn’t provide a bombardiers rest / cushion for him to lie on, so why not make one and place the sight on the cushion. Well this is my attempt care of take-away tinfoil, plasticard and a bit of milliput which is how it will appear in the finished build. The bombardier pretty much lay on top of the escape hatch! That alone scares the heeby jeebys out of me, before even thinking of the bombing mission!

 

IMG_1579.jpg

 

The pilot is from the spares as a prop to give it a sense of scale.

 

IMG_1581.jpg

 

Okay not Eduard etch standard, but I don’t think it’s too far out, and should look okay painted and resting on the cushion through the transparent nose section.

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That looks great and I would put it on a clearly visible place through the nose blister. No need to feel envy on Eduard or so. You matched that perfectly and after a coat of wood brown paint it also could be an Eduard one :goodjob::goodjob:

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You have definitely entered the nano-realm on this one now Tomo - mind is blown at this level of detailing. I've just done a Mexican wave on the touchscreen to cheer you on.

Tony

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