Ta 152H colours: Is there a definitive answer?

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

2 hours ago, JPuente54 said:

I am somewhat surprised that Jamie Duff of Sovereign Hobbies hasn't offered any comment on this. He has committed his company to produce accurate colors, and a quality paint. He also does try to use the best and most recent research for his line.

Joe

Hi Joe, I have been reading but have kept quiet because none of the Luftwaffe research is my own. We have stuck with Jürgen Kiroff's chips for our own range although I do quietly keep tabs on what Gentlemen such as Jerry Crandall say on the subject when it comes up.

 

This particular subject is one in which I am highly unlikely to catch up with, let alone surpass any of the reputable authors on in terms of knowledge.

 

There are considered reasons by some of these authors on why they believe RLM83 was dark green. Michael Ullman has reasons to believe it was blue - but unless I'm mistaken there isn't a visualisation (i.e. colour chip) of what it should have looked like.

 

If this ever does get settled to the point that Ken Merrick, Jürgen Kiroff, Jerry Crandall and Michael Ullman reach consensus and it's different to what I've got now, I'll react at that point.

 

I'll get back to lurking and absorbing now - I have enough trouble with Royal Navy colours just now

[Kaldrack]

The problem with the BV 138 float is that it’s identity is completely unknown. They do not know which aircraft it came from. So did it even serve in the Med or when was it built/lost etc. Sadly unless these facts are known then attributing RLM 83 to the paint on the float is quite dangerous from a research standpoint. I have seen the photos of the float and while it looks quite blue there is nothing to say that it is not oxidised RLM 72 or 73. Some years ago (70’s) Ian Huntley published measurements he had taken from a relic that would have had RLM 72/73 paint on it. He matched the colours to the Methuen colour system. The colours he gave were a very dark, green turquoise in nature. Looking at those colours it was quite easy to see how an RLM 72/73 relic could turn quite blue under the right conditions over a period of time. If Ullmann attributes that float as RLM 83 I will be very disappointed and let down given the complete lack of provenance associated to the relic. It would be extremely reckless in my opinion. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Antti_K]

Indeed Kaldrack; it would be dangerous to simply "label" a colour relic as Farbton 83 (or anything else previously unknown for that matter). I have faith on Ullmann and his work. He is experienced enough not to make hasty conclusions and he has access to original documents at Dornier. It seems that we have to wait a little longer.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

 

 

 

[JPuente54]

Jamie, my meaning about research was that you consult with people such as Nick, Dana, etc. about colour accuracy and the like. If I seemed to imply anything other than that, my apologies. I did mean that you are willing to make changes to the paint colours as new information comes to light due to the efforts of the above people(Nick, Dana, etc.). If Mr. Ullman is able to finally publish the specs. and a chip; you'll have a new colour in the Luftwaffe range to sell. If not, then this becomes one of those possibly, maybe, lines of information. Still it is interesting; and, there is some evidence that seems to back it up. But, not clear proof of its existence. With that, I'll let you get on with worrying about the Royal Navy colours; I know that there is still some controversy in the arena(both ships and the aircraft). I do know when it will appear(the proof of RLM 83 being a blue): Right after I build the previously mentioned Me 262! I believe that it is part of the law that a mainstream manufacturer will produce a kit of a resin/vacu-form/ancient kit; after one has built the former. I look forward to more of this thread.

Joe

[FAAMAN]

The comment about natural metal undersides from Giorgio N had me searching . . . .

UndersidesS by Neil, on Flickr

 

Hope this helps,

Regards,

FAA

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

11 hours ago, JPuente54 said:

Jamie, my meaning about research was that you consult with people such as Nick, Dana, etc. about colour accuracy and the like. If I seemed to imply anything other than that, my apologies. I did mean that you are willing to make changes to the paint colours as new information comes to light due to the efforts of the above people(Nick, Dana, etc.). If Mr. Ullman is able to finally publish the specs. and a chip; you'll have a new colour in the Luftwaffe range to sell. If not, then this becomes one of those possibly, maybe, lines of information. Still it is interesting; and, there is some evidence that seems to back it up. But, not clear proof of its existence. With that, I'll let you get on with worrying about the Royal Navy colours; I know that there is still some controversy in the arena(both ships and the aircraft). I do know when it will appear(the proof of RLM 83 being a blue): Right after I build the previously mentioned Me 262! I believe that it is part of the law that a mainstream manufacturer will produce a kit of a resin/vacu-form/ancient kit; after one has built the former. I look forward to more of this thread.

Joe

Hi Joe, no apology necessary - I took no such implication from your post. I was more trying to explain my silent observations on this subject

[Dave Fleming]

Fascinating topic. The lack of documentation obviously leads to researchers making the facts fit the observations, so that where  you see three shades of green the logical assumption is that there must be three official shades, and we know that RLM 81 and 82 are two of them so the third must be 83....

 

Not helped by what documentation we do have giving differing descriptions of what RLM 81 is supposed to be! (Am I correct in thinking that RLM didn't issue descriptive names for colours, but those applied came from the paint or aircraft manufacturers?)

 

BTW, I'm struck by how similar the underlying colours on Michael Ullman's Ju88 looks to UK Temperate Sea Scheme!

[Antti_K]

17 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

(Am I correct in thinking that RLM didn't issue descriptive names for colours, but those applied came from the paint or aircraft manufacturers?)

 

As far as I know this is the case. The word Farbton is used in factory camouflage drawings and the six digit codenumber is used in "official correspondence". Names like Dunkelgrun (Dornier) or Braunviolet (Messerschmitt) were names derived by the aircraft factory.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[FAAMAN]

Found some more refs in books in the garage, wish I could access my main library . . . . . .

 

First off some very nicely rendered drawings from "Model Art No.336 - Focke Wulf 190D and Ta 152" 1989, both Dora's and Ta 152's represented, problem is they not only show "RLM-83" but mixed schemes also, so in all fairness I could not "not" show 'em 'cause I don't think RLM-83 was green, confusing . . .

CamoA.sml by Neil, on Flickr

CamoB.sml by Neil, on Flickr

CamoC.sml by Neil, on Flickr

CamoC.sml by Neil, on Flickr

 

From Kagero "Focke Wulf Fw 190 Vol.IV" 2004, Pg.31 & 32, some very interesting text,

CamoText.sml by Neil, on Flickr

 

Many many more books, mags, newsletters etc to go through,

Regards all,

FAA

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, Dave Fleming said:

BTW, I'm struck by how similar the underlying colours on Michael Ullman's Ju88 looks to UK Temperate Sea Scheme!

 

I have to admit I don't see any resemblance to Temperate Sea Scheme at all there

[Kaldrack]

Back to the BV 138 float. I have it from a very respected Luftwaffe expert that the production of the BV 138 finished in December 1943. Only one single BV 138 aircraft operated from Crete in the summer of 1942. Well before the RLM 83 period. Two staffels of BV 138s stayed for a few days at Saloniki as a stop over when they had to retreat from Romania to Germany in early 1944. So there is absolutely zero reason why any BV 138s would have been painted in the Mediterranean RLM 83 Dark Blue scheme. Thus meaning the BV 138 float relic is categorically not RLM 83 and never has been. It is simply a very aged and oxidised example of RLM 72 or 73.

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Troy Smith]

regarding the Ta152,  data gets superceded

 

co-incidentally this has been being discussed in a WIP here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235017777-a-nostalgic-tribute-to-frog-model-kits/&page=26&tab=comments#comment-2988309

 

On 22/03/2018 at 09:29, FAAMAN said:

As I said don't trust pics of this Ta, it has several coats of paint on it as photographed, very little original paint can be seen (mostly on the underside).

 

IMO,   it has a lot of original paint,  what is new is some grey to obscure the fuslage cross, tail band and fin,   with RAF markings applied, then fake German crosses.   Above and in front of the '4' looks to be original paint.   Note the remains of the painted over delievery code letter 'J'  still visible.

 

 

compare,  apart from obvious overpainting, what is visible matches known schemes,   also note  just visible in the above,  the painted over JG301 bands bleeding through  the grey overspray on the lower fuselage 

 

 

It was certainly repainted heavily later on,    as the storage photos match the image below,  

 

 

 

FWIW the washed out pic of green 4/FE-112,   the colours at the front  looks very similar to  the one on this Me 262

 

@Antti_K    the repainting of the captured types in the US was done by guesswork...as the Ta152  pic above shows.

 

I note we  have  some older referencesbeig quoted,   which do not take in the new information that has been subsequently collated,   especially by the JaPo researchers.

They have painstakingly analysed photos,   and by matching up Werk Nummer and factories have identfied specfic variations of paint scheme,  ie a Fw109D built by Focke Wulf in the ******* range is going to finished in specfic  way,  but one built by a subcontractor is going to be finished in another way.

This is backed up with  photos and  diagrams,  and is well  argued, in as much that the pain shop in the  factory is likely to turn up the  same  basic scheme in a specfic batch,  for example,  there are more shots and film for this image

 

and the aircraft lined up show uniformity in the applied schemes.

 

This type of research has been one of the most significant developments   in research into late war Luftwaffe schemes,  as the individual factory/batch application has been shown to be remarkably consitent.

 

there is a chap on Flickr who has been compiling Bf109 photos,  into albums, with various tags

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/albums

 

note there albums dedicated to the various plants building the Bf109,  Wiener-Neustadt,  Erla,  MTT-Regensburg, 

 

for example,  Erla used a very distinctive low visibilty scheme

https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/albums/72157635677312595

 

Bf 109 G-6 and G-14 W.Nr. unknown, Erg.KG(J) (?), Illesheim, Germany, 3 May 1945. Source: Roger Freeman collection inv. FRE 7640 via facebook.com. by Marc-André Haldimann, on Flickr

 

which once you know what it loosk like, means a Bf109 in this  scheme is going to be an Erla plane of a given werk nummer batch.

 

The problem is that the JaPo books are now all out of print,  and were in the specialist price range to beging with,   I was very lucky to get some via the sale pages here at a bargain price.

 

For those reading this going 'crickey'    it's been evolving,  as post war no-one was really interested,  and the first books on the subject by Karl Ries in the 60's didn't help,   basically saying all fighters were in 70/71 uppers, over 65, with some mottling in grey.

Of course you only need to see a B/W photo of a 74/75/76 Bf109 next to a 70/71 finish bomber to notice this is wrong.

So next the mid-war grey scheme got 'revealed'   and then researchers started to notice that various preserved relics were in different colours  again,  eg the Point Cook Me163

https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/me163/australia.htm

engines panels of a Me262 in Australia,  and then careful restorations of NASM types.

The collapse of communism allowed even more information to surface etc etc,   going through layers of inforamtion,   with new bits adding and changing the picture.

 

Sorry,  I'm just adding this in for those being baffled,   as this is understood as 'read'  by many in this thread.

 

And....I need to eat and do the school run....

 

HTH

 

 

 

[Antti_K]

Hello all,

 

as Troy mentioned the Americans over painted those captured German aircraft that they put on a show in the States. Authenticity was not the order of the day. Something we see when we look at the Ta-152 or Horten at Smithsonian.

 

About the Do-335 (102) then. It fell into US hands at Dornier factory at Oberpfaffenhofen. A photo shows a couple of US soldiers and a Jeep together with the aircraft. At that time the Dornier had small Balkenkreutz -insignias on fuselage. The photos I posted a couple of pages ago were shot at Maryland, USA. In these pictures the Balkenkreutzes are large. Nothing else has been changed; the aircraft carries it's original paint. So who re-painted her Balkenkreutzes?

 

It would be very interesting to rub down the surface of the float. I'm thinking about the Hurricane that we have here in Finland. It carries quite well preserved original RAF paint and the Dark Green looks more like a silvery-gray. Definitely nothing we consider as Dark Green.

 

I think that knowledge about an aircraft's operating area is not as such a conclusive evidence about the paints being used. It is a starting point for further research.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[Max Headroom]

@Antti_K

 

The 335 went back to Germany in the 70’s and was restored to its current finish by Dornier in Oberpeffenfofen who displayed it there for a number of years before returning back to the NASM.

 

Here is a link to the NASM website description of the exhibit

 

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/dornier-do-335-0-pfeil-arrow

 

Trevor

 

[Antti_K]

13 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

@Antti_K

 

The 335 went back to Germany in the 70’s and was restored to its current finish by Dornier in Oberpeffenfofen who displayed it there for a number of years before returning back to the NASM.

Hello Trevor!

 

Oh, it seems that I didn't explain my point clearly enough, sorry

 

I wasn't talking about the Dornier in it's restored state but original. Before it was taken back to Dornier factory for complete restoration.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[Kaldrack]

From the appearance of the paint flaking on the float it looks to have been painted in one single colour at the factory. Zero evidence of another colour below except maybe primer or bare aluminium. All BV 138s had finished being built in December 1943. Which is about the same time RLM 83 Dark Blue would have been finishing up testing with the possibility of mass introduction had it been required. So the likelyhood of the brand new Mediterranean scheme being painted on a type that had not only finished production, but was not involved in that theatre in any way shape or form is zero in my opinion. Plus having a dark blue painted aircraft flying around the grey waters of Northern Europe during daytime operations would not be a good idea with regards to survival. The Horten Priory Ju88 that retained this Med scheme when it crashed in the UK was not a problem as it was flying night bombing sorties. 

[FAAMAN]

Just found this on "Let Let Let Warplanes" that you'll find is most interesting, could be the proof for RLM-83 being Dk.Green, maybe . . . . .

http://www.letletlet-warplanes.com/2008/07/01/luftwaffe-paints-new-discoveries/

 

What is most of interest is down the bottom, a can of original Luftwaffe paint marked "-81", but the colour is definitely Dk.Green!!

[Kaldrack]

Currently there is nothing in existence that could constitute as proof that RLM 83 was a Dark Green. The following is the only period document ever found which offers a descriptive colour term associated with RLM 83 and it states “dunkelblau” (Dark Blue):

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Denford]

On ‎23‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 5:13 AM, FAAMAN said:

The comment about natural metal undersides from Giorgio N had me searching . . . .

UndersidesS by Neil, on Flickr

 

Hope this helps,

Regards,

FAA

 

Can anyone suggest a reason why parts of the underwing (possibly complete panels?) should have been left unpainted

[sloegin57]

8 hours ago, Kaldrack said:

Currently there is nothing in existence that could constitute as proof that RLM 83 was a Dark Green. The following is the only period document ever found which offers a descriptive colour term associated with RLM 83 and it states “dunkelblau” (Dark Blue):

 

Publish the document Kaldrack, the above is only a blind lead to ImgBB and there is nothing there of interest

 

Dennis

[Graham Boak]

A couple of lesser points.

 

Post 64.  Leaving significant parts of the wing unpainted would be done to speed production and to eke out limited supplies of paint.  The implicit question is then why were some areas filled and painted: as far as the leading edges go this is for aerodynamic smoothness.  I believe that there is now more than enough information to confirm this happened.

 

Post 85. The colours on the Ju88 do not look anything like fresh Temperate Sea Scheme, but there are several colour photos showing how Extra Dark Sea Grey appeared much lighter and distinctly bluer after a short period of time in service.  I would agree that the colours on the Ju88 in question are perhaps too intense, and the real thing would appear more washed out.

 

Italian -based Ju88s.  I have a few qualms about references to the Swiss machine.  The term "Wasser" used in the description does not immediately scream "dark blue" at me.  Perhaps a specialist in the Swiss/German language could clarify what it may mean to them?  The Allied  Intelligence report on examples on an occupied airfield leave no doubt that at least some of these aircraft  were blue, and the b&w photos (as well as common sense?) suggest this was a dark blue, but has the identification of this colour on the Swiss machine been influenced by these reports? 

 

The thread is very interesting, but I think we are getting a little away from the original and key question, which is the colours used on the Ta152.  The numbers seem to be of little assistance, and just add more confusion rather than casting light.

[Kaldrack]

Dennis, can you not see the typed image “Farbton 83 dunkelblau” attached to my post??

 

[Graham Boak]

Kaldrack:  I couldn't see this table attached to your previous post either.  Thanks for putting it up.   As a guide to the tone of RLM83, it is seen as replacing the lighter colour (73 and 71) in both schemes.

[Seahawk]

Nor I either.  Thank you for this sight of the original document you quoted (and translated) in post 29.

[sloegin57]

33 minutes ago, Kaldrack said:

Dennis, can you not see the typed image “Farbton 83 dunkelblau” attached to my post??

 

 

Yes I could see that, but that was all.  When clicked on all I got was the home page. 

 

Thank you for putting the entire image up.  

 

Dennis