Ta 152H colours: Is there a definitive answer?

[Kaldrack]

Gentlemen, I only posted the cropped “Farbton 83 dunkelblau” text from the document previously. 

[Sturmovik]

Just to know, how would a dark blue painted on the upper surfaces of an aircraft be a good camouflage colour?

[longweight]

Blue as a top surface camouflage colour would be for the same reasons as US Navy aircraft and others painted in dark blue for maritime operations over the sea. 

HTH

[Antti_K]

Dark blue is actually a very good camouflage colour. Here in Finland our SAAB J35 Drakens were painted with dark blue and olive green and they were very hard to spot when looking from above. At first you noticed the white "spots" of the roundels. And then the Draken was already all over you! The higher you fly the better camouflage a medium to dark blue gives you.

 

Thank you for sharing the table Kaldrack It is a very interesting document. Possibly the first one to mention RLM 83 and naming it?  I'm wondering why "dunkelblau" is written without capital letter "D" as it's a name. Germans are quite pedant with things like these.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[JPuente54]

I had a talk and text chat with my old university roommate(he's German; his dad and uncle wore "the wrong color clothing(as I tease him) in the 40s"); and told him about this thread. He was aware of the dark blue/Dunkelblau color. That, and, it was used only for a limited time; and, a relatively small number of aircraft. He stated that it was a dark blue with a hint of green; and, for the Mediterranean theater. He stated that he does have sources in Germany, but, unnamed. So, hardly proof, at best, a bit more evidence; at worse, very anecdotal. Still, this could, maybe, possibly, be a very small piece toward RLM 83 being a dark blue. But, not definitive enough to declare it so. This is getting more interesting by the posting.

Joe

[Giorgio N]

On 24/3/2018 at 4:09 PM, Denford said:

Can anyone suggest a reason why parts of the underwing (possibly complete panels?) should have been left unpainted

 

I can only talk on what happened on the Fw.190D here, not all late war Luftwaffe fighters. I think that there's some misundestanding, the underwing was not partly unpainted with random panels painted, but the whole underwing as built by the companies that followed this approach was left unpainted. Then panels made from subcontractors were added and these were painted in RLM 76 because they were in other meterials that required painting (like ailerons and flaps) or because those subcontractors painted the panels. They were not painted on the assembly line, they arrived already painted.

In addition the areas closer to the leading edges were then painted, sometime in dark colours for aerodynamic reasons as Graham stated and (if with dark colours) for camouflage reasons too.

The main reason for not applying paint was as Graham said, to speed up production. For the same reason the wheel wells and other internal areas were left unpainted in the last months of the war (IIRC from late 44)

Edited March 26, 2018 by Giorgio N

[Kari Lumppio]

Servus!

 

Ta 152 and Fw 190 D

 

Is it possible they used one of the old greens RLM 71 (or 70) with the new RLM 82 Hellgrün?

 

Old paint stock was to be used up. For light green there was no old stock (if Ikaron 201 is not counted in).

I saw mr. Crandall also participating so would be interested to know if surviving Fw / Ta artifacts have anything for my question above.

 

 

Thanks in advance,

Kari

 

[tango98]

Interesting to note that the Travemünde document does clearly indicate that RLM 83 was dark blue and was, as the document states, through ‘Development and testing’ and ‘in conjunction with’ to be considered for use as a camouflage colour for aircraft operating in the Mediterranean theatre over either land or sea.

The Bv 138 float also raises an interesting question and it would be great if some provenance could be established for it.  As the 3./SAGr.125 were operating eight of their Bv 138’s out of Salonika up until the end of August 1944 there could be the (very) slim possibility that if the float originated from an aircraft of that Staffel  would/could this then be visual proof that the blue on the float is actually 83 which had been applied for trialling under operational conditions?

 

Cheers

Dave

Edited March 26, 2018 by tango98

[Kaldrack]

Dave, confirmed by Flugbuch entries, 1./SAGr 125 was at Saloniki for 6 days and 3./SAGr 125 was there for 8 days. Operations during this brief stop over from Romania were unlikely as they had no ground equipment or ground crew thus no RLM 83 Dark Blue paint or anyone to paint the BV 138s. So as stated earlier there was no reason why the aforementioned float relic would be painted RLM 83 Dark Blue.

[tango98]

Yes, you're correct about their brief stay there. That's what happens when you rely on memory too much!

Anyway, after after having gone and had a brief look through my SAGr.125 KTB entries and unit files I’ve found one reference to a sortie being flown by  a 138 from Saloniki prior to their departure (but haven’t had time to translate it in its entirety). As far as support elements go and in light of their not having their regular support staff on hand I would hazard a guess that their servicing requirements were likely handled by the resident Flugplatzkdo. (See) or one of the other elements at Saloniki-Mikra but I’d have to go back through my files to nail down more specific info – if it exists.

However, given that the float is from a Bv 138 and that the Stab, 1 and 3.Staffeln were in the theatre after the November Travemünde document, it is not beyond the realms of possibility to consider that (although stretching possibilities a bit here), one of the 138s from either the 1. or 3. Staffeln may just have already been given blue painted sections for trial purposes in the area. After all, it’s a Bv 138 float and they were in the Med for where the colour was intended.

Other than that, I have no idea! But it would certainly be a step in the right direction if some provenance or more information for that float was to surface. If it does it's a given that Sod's Law will immediately come into play!

Cheers

Dave

[Kaldrack]

Dave, SAGr 125 made a hasty retreat from their base at Varna due to the German defeat in Romania by the advancing Soviet forces and the Romanian forces joining the allies and turning on the Germans. Building up to this it is completely implausible to suggest that SAGr 125 were conscerend with repainting aircraft so that they would be concealed in a theatre which up until a few weeks earlier was not known to have been a requirement. The personnel at Varna would have been far more concerned with ensuring that all of the aircraft were serviceable and able to retreat at a moments notice.

 

The infrastructure at Saloniki-Mirka “See” base consisted of one small hanger, a small wooden pier and a few mooring buoys. Again, not the ideal environment to be lifting BV 138s out of the water to prepare/undertake full re-repaints and especially not in the maximum of the 8 days they were staying at this small limited facilities seaplane base. Both 1 and 3./SAGr 125 were back in Germany by the 2nd September 1944.

 

With all due respect, by offering these incredibly remote and 1 in a million chance reasons why a lone BV 138 float relic located in Norway would be painted in a dark blue Mediterranean scheme is simply adding unnecessary fuel to a claim made by the same group of sensationalist researchers who link the p.h. level of paint found on relics to be a determining factor in identifying specific RLM paints. A claim that has already quite rightly determined their research practices to be completely ridiculous and flawed. Before we know it and given the opportunity these same researchers would be quite happy to publish that they have undeniable proof that RLM 83 “Dark Blue” was used by maritime units not just briefly in the Mediterranean, but widespread all over Europe simply because they have a single blue looking BV 138 float situated in a museum in Norway.

 

By simply looking at the flaking paint on the float relic it is clear that it is painted in one single upper surface colour. There is zero evidence of an underlying maritime green paint below the paint we see applied to the float. Would we not see a dark green peaking through the multitude of chips and scratches if there was another layer of paint below what we can see? :

 

 

This leaves us with only one possible conclusion. The BV 138 float was painted in a single upper surface colour at the factory when manufactured. It would have undoubtedly been painted in either RLM 72 or 73. This would have been applied during the production of the BV 138 up to December 1943 when production of the type ceased. This was prior to any feasible large scale use of a brand new Mediterranean Dark Blue maritime scheme.

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Kaldrack

[tango98]

Kaldrack, PM inbound.

Dave

[occa]

My two pennies on the float:

The colour looks nothing like any color from the RLM 70,71,72,73 range (even if aging is taken into account) which all were dirty more or less dark grayish green paints that completely lacked any brightness.

To me it exactly looks like the dark blue with a greenish hint described.

 

Colour impressions should not  be bent to fit to the limited knowledge we have up to now, they are what they are ...

[Kaldrack]

It’s not limited knowledge though. No BV 138s operated in any capacity in the Med theatre during the period of RLM 83 Dark Blue usage.. Which was likely very limited anyway... Just out of interest how could you possibly know how the RLM 70, 71, 72, 73 paints would look like after 70+ years of deterioration? Taking into consideration that we have no idea what the circumstances or what conditions that relic has been exposed to over the years. 

 

One could easily counter with: The clearly oxidised and aged appearance of a relic in completely the wrong area of operations should not be bent to fit the agenda of sensationalist researchers...

Edited March 28, 2018 by Kaldrack

[occa]

Do you know of any RLM 70 to 73 artifacts that show a deterioration to anywhere near the bright blue hue that we see on the floats ?

[Kaldrack]

Do you know any that don't?

 

How do you know the lighting conditions are not exaggerating what we are seeing in the photos?

Edited March 29, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Kaldrack]

Tell me where there are relics that have good examples of 72/73 on them?

 

As previously stated in the 70's Ian Huntley inspected two relics which were painted 72/73. The methuen colours he matched them to were a very dark turquoise in colour. So maybe the green pigments on the float have faded more than the bluer elements. If they used the same green pigments in 72/73 as they did in 70/71 we know from recent research by Ullmann that the desaturation of 70/71 over a short period of time was enough for the RLM to cancel their use and develop/switch to different paint formulas (81/82)... 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Kaldrack

[Kaldrack]

Take for example the He 115, WNr.2398 that was pulled from a lake in Norway. Look how blue the RLM 73 looks in this photo:

 

 

It would be reasonable to suggest that under the right conditions it could turn bluer over time...

 

Erik Pilawskii and the guys pushing the narrative for the BV 138 float being RLM 83 Dark Blue are even suggesting that this He 115 was painted in RLM 83 Dark Blue which quite frankly is absurd considering that it was lost in the lake on 28th December 1942. This is the level of sensationalism these charlatans are willing to lower themselves to...

[Antti_K]

I hear You. It's good that you published the Heinkel picture; it gives us perspective on the subject (at least for me it does). Were both of these photos taken at the same museum? The "Blues" look very much the same; too much to be just a coincidence. I'm surprised to see how good the Heinkel's paint work still looks.

 

The Official Monogram Painting Guide for German Aircraft has colour chips of both RLM 72 and 73 based on Observed Colours. They are very dark in appearance (almost black to Mk. 1 Eyeball) and it is very hard to tell one from another. These colour chips don't match at all with the printed colour chart Published in Ullmann's book.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

9 hours ago, occa said:

The colour looks nothing like any color from the RLM 70,71,72,73 range (even if aging is taken into account)

 

With respect, that's a very bold statement. Without fully understanding the precise paint composition and the photochemical reactions within the binder, the pigments and how the pigments react with each other as well as the exact environmental conditions it has been exposed to over close to 8 decades, you're way out on a limb there.

 

I measured a 1943 sample of paint just last month. The paint was comprised of boiled linseed oil, turpentine, white lead flake oil paste, zinc white oil paste, ultramarine blue and lamp black oil pastes. Typical colour values when new would be L:68ish a:-2.something b:-6~-7

 

The measured colour values last month were L:70.0 a:-7.2 b:3.7. You can put those into EasyRGB or e-paint.co.uk's tool's using CIELAB, D65 illuminant and 1964 10deg observer angle if you wish to visualise it. If not, the negative a and positive b values make it a fairly distinct yellow-green.

 

Paint changes colour with time to a degree vastly greater than most assume.

 

Within the period of a war time, paint's ability to change drastically is curtailed. Give it 70 or 80 years though and it's a very different story.

[sloegin57]

26 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Paint changes colour with time to a degree vastly greater than most assume.

 

How very very true - and in a much shorter period of time than many people realise.

 

When I first saw the photos of the float in almost four years ago, my immediate reaction was that the Luftwaffe must have used some captured or copied FAA EDSG.  Looking now at the photo of the fuselage, my opinion has not changed.

 

Dennis

[Kaldrack]

The He115 is under restoration at the Flyhistorisk Museum Sola in Norway. It’s a remarkable time capsule, but sadly the team they have researching the camouflage and markings are known to be very incompetent in their techniques so I dread to think what other nonsense they will be trying to publish when they release their findings. Eric Pilawskii was hounded out of the Russian camouflage and markings scene because of his outrageous and completely fabricated research which had zero factual basis. It seems he is trying edge his way into the Luftwaffe scene now. Sadly...

 

I'm pretty sure the float is located at the same museum in Sola.

 

Yeah, I mean, who knows why the RLM paint chips vary so widely between the published offerings. Perhaps it says something as to the variance you could expect between the same paint colours even during wartime. Maybe the RLM 72/73 was greener when it was freshly applied, but it may have turned gradually bluer with exposure even over a short period of time. To be honest I have always wondered why the published examples of 72/73 looked really dark and green. Very similar to 70/71. Almost too similar to warrant 72/73 existing. It would make sense for 72/73 to have had a slight blue tinge to them considering they were maritime operational paints.

 

 

[fewr9fkr9595]

24 minutes ago, Kaldrack said:

To be honest I have always wondered why the published examples of 72/73 looked really dark and green. Very similar to 70/71. Almost too similar to warrant 72/73 existing. 

 

Same feeling here mate. 

[occa]

3 hours ago, Kaldrack said:

Take for example the He 115, WNr.2398 that was pulled from a lake in Norway. Look how blue the RLM 73 looks in this photo:

 

 

It would be reasonable to suggest that under the right conditions it could turn bluer over time...

 

Erik Pilawskii and the guys pushing the narrative for the BV 138 float being RLM 83 Dark Blue are even suggesting that this He 115 was painted in RLM 83 Dark Blue which quite frankly is absurd considering that it was lost in the lake on 28th December 1942. This is the level of sensationalism these charlatans are willing to lower themselves to...

That indeed appears to be the same color as on the BV 138 float, at least at the front.

How are we sure this isn't RLM 83 dunkelblau either ?

And if this He 115 sank before 1943:

What if the paint existed and was used on AC regardless of the theater well before 1943 ?

 

I don't claim to be a researcher, I just think outside of the box ...

[Kaldrack]

The full history of the He 115 is known. It didn’t get anywhere close to the Mediterranean before it's loss. It was lost in Norway before RLM 83 was even suggested for initial testing (in the Mediterranean...). I appreciate that in certain industries, thinking outside the box can be beneficial, but this is historical research. It's about dealing with facts, evidence and highly educated hypothesis. One of the worst and most inexperienced mistakes a viewer can make when viewing relics or period colour photos is to believe what their eyes are telling them. Experience in researching these areas teaches you not to believe what you see because there are so many reasons why it can be false. You need to take step back and research other avenues surrounding each case to establish the plausibility of the evidence in front of you. I think that what has been presented over the course of this topic illustrates that the possibility of both the float and the He 115 being painted in RLM 83 Dark Blue as impossible based on the areas in which these machines served and the areas/timescale of the testing/introduction of RLM 83 Dark Blue. It just does not match in the slightest and I believe that any researcher worth his salt would come to the same conclusion.

 

On the other hand we have a situation which fits together perfectly. Two aircraft painted in the same standard Maritime colours for the period and areas in which they both served are presenting an aged and oxidised version of RLM 73 which seems to have altered to approximately the same hue. This theory or more likely fact makes much more sense and it doesn’t require an ounce of shoehorning or wacky, out of the box thinking to come to this simple and obvious conclusion.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Kaldrack