Ta 152H colours: Is there a definitive answer?

[stevehnz]

in Scale Aircraft Modelling, November & December 2017, Paul Lucas' Colour Conumdrum  page covers late war Luftwaffe camoufkage. In the second part, December, he postulates that the RLM 83 Dark Blue was a proposal that due to the changing fortunes of war in the Mediterranean theatre, became unnecessary & never became an official shade which left the RLM 83 designation open, later in the war, the need. for better ground camouflage colours led to a new range coming into being which included RLM 81, 82 & 83 being  Brown Violet, Light & Dark greens. I don't know how this sits with the Luftwaffe Colour Experten but it had an attractive logic to me.

Steve

[Kaldrack]

There are period reports clearly identifying a dark blue colour as being painted on Ju 88 operating in the Med and crashed aircraft that were up until a few weeks prior to the crash operating in the Med. 

 

Personally I believe there is ample evidence to suggest an official RLM dark blue was in use for aircraft operating in the Med. Given Michael Ullmann’s other period document discovery stating that RLM 83 was dark blue in colour. It makes the most sense that RLM 83 was a dark blue. The evidence had just been misconstrued by researchers until Ullmann’s discovery added the missing piece to the puzzle. 

 

[stevehnz]

Effectively Paul Lucas refutes Ullmans conclusions. I'm not going to take sides neither do I intend to try to quote his article which was quite long, but the gist of his arguement appeared to be that while there were aircraft painted in the dark blue colour it was not promulgated as an official RLM shade before the need for it had disappeared. Maybe try find a copy & see what you think.

Steve.

 

[Kaldrack]

Hi Steve,

 

While it is Paul Lucas' right to refute Michael Ullmann's findings within an article which he has written. Sadly, Mr Lucas has carried out relatively little research on this matter himself. He has merely cherry picked other more notable experts documentary research and extensive posts on specialized forums that have been discussing this particular enigma ever since Michael Ullmann first released his new findings at a lecture he gave at the "Art in miniature" IPMS show in Gothenburg in September 2012.

 

I have the recent articles by Mr Lucas and they offer nothing new other than what was already generally discussed and accepted by the LW community. I would regard Michael Ullmann as having a superior grasp of Luftwaffe camouflage and markings than Mr. Lucas.

 

The report Ullmann discovered read as follows (verbatim) followed by a rough translation:

 

Abgeschlossen mit S-Bericht vom 10.11.43. Farbton 83 dunkelblau in Verbindung mit Farbton 72 schwarzgrün für See- und 70 dunkelgrün für Landflugzeuge zur Einführung vorgeschlagen.

(Completed with S-report from 10.11.43. colour 83 dark blue in conjunction with colour 72 black green for sea based aircraft and 70 dark green for land based aircraft proposed for introduction.)

 

We then have at least one official report of aircraft painted with such a colour:

 

"Some very deep blue paint was found on the upper surface of the aircraft, and it seems probable that it had been operating on the anti-shipping sorties in the Mediterranean area at a very recent date."

 

In fact it had been operating with II./KG 54 while based at Bergamo, Italy merely six weeks prior to it crashing in the UK.

 

Then a statement published by the late Kenneth Merrick from a Joachim Siebers who served with KG 76 in Italy. In his account he is describing the all blue finish of some of the Ju 88s at Foggia Airfield.

 

So regardless of what personal speculations Mr Lucas might have towards Michael Ullmann's research, a great many notable experts in this field are quite comfortable with the notion that RLM 83 was indeed a dark blue colour. Put it this way, there is far more solid evidence to suggest that RLM 83 was a dark blue than RLM 83 was a green.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Kaldrack

[stevehnz]

Thanks for that input, I was surprised I guess that the Lucas articles didn't provoke some discussion on here, maybe they have elsewhere. I followed Michael Ullman's revelations on 12o'clock high when they first came out so have no problem with dark blue Ju 88s being fact.

Regardless of accepted nomenclature, I'll probably still think in terms of RLM 82 & 83 for light & dark greens, even though the dark shade is most likely a variant of 82.

Steve.

[Vonbraun]

Here are color photos of a captured Ta 152 with most of its original paint intact. 

And here is a composite made from a film depicting a Fw 190 A in Focke Wulf's  late war greens.  Production Ta 152 very likely would be analogous. 

[Graham Boak]

As demonstrated in JAPO's books on the Fw190d, the colours an aircraft was finished in depended upon the factories in which it was built, the assembly line where it was assembled, and the period in which this occurred.  So the photo above of the Fw190A assembly line may not be a good guide to the colours of the Ta152H, bearing in mind that this photo was taken at a factory in Allied hands, whereas the Tank fighters were in part of the Russian area.

 

If you can cross your heart and say that the somewhat washed-out photos of the Ta152 certainly show the same colours as those on the Fw190As, you have more confidence in your judgement than I do.

[Kaldrack]

I think Graham makes a good point regarding the individual paints available to the factories producing the sub-assemblies at this point in the war. The third photo shows to good effect the rudder assembly as being camouflaged at a different location prior to full assembly. Although it looks as though a particular scheme instruction had been followed, the rudder’s camouflage does not match up perfectly to the main fuselage assembly. Clearly both were painted at different locations or at the very least differring times and assembled into a full airframe.

 

Regarding the first two photos. I think that it is not so much washed out photography, but faded colours. The sky, grass and stab green of the numeral look reasonably good, but, obviously not perfect. It looks like the aircraft may have been in use with the US for some time prior to the photo being taken, hence the paint fading...

[FAAMAN]

This argument had been well and truly put to bed in the mid 1980's. It's a bit exasperating to see that this argument's popped up again but even worse it's being supported by the hobby manufacturers.

RLM-83 was a Dark Blue.

I could not believe it when I returned to the hobby in 2010 looking for paint for a Luftwaffe subject (to replace my Humbrol Authentics paints I still have) and saw RLM-83 being produced as a green (!!!!!) by various manufacturers.

In short, there was no RLM-83 Grun, it never existed as a green.

A while ago I did a rather long and drawn out search for the reasons behind this belief that RLM-83 existed and I noted all the arguments for and against.

The against argument was supported by very well researched information supported by documentation from the time.

The for argument was supported by photographic evidence mostly (a method fraught with danger) and snippets of information from around the LW community. Every scale modeller should know to NOT use period colour photographs form Before WWII to the end of the Korean War due to the multiplicity of different emulsions used to create a colour photographic print, therefore altering the "actual" colour of what was being photographed. Printing for a book and digitizing further changes pre-digital photographs by the act of copying.

Add to this my earlier comment about the paint's hue quality from late war and the mix up is understandable.

Regards all,

FAA

 

 

[stevehnz]

As @Kaldrack has posted above, Michael Ullman's revelations re RLM 83 being dark blue surfaced in 2012, I had never seen it postulated before that & every source I'd seen prior to that gave RLM 83 as dark green so I'm interested to know where this info appeared earlier than that.

Steve.

[Kaldrack]

Indeed, prior to Ullmann's release of the period documentary evidence in 2012 there was not one single line of thought among the expert and wider Luftwaffe community published or unpublished that RLM 83 was a dark blue. So I find the claims made by FAAMAN to be incredibly far-fetched to say the least...

[stevehnz]

I've just taken time to re-read Paul Lucas's articles & the threads on TOCH which dealt with Michael Ullmans initial revelations. Here, here & here. quite a lot of reading & it certainly refreshed my memory as to what I had read several years ago, longer than I care to admit. Relating the TOCH threads to what Paul L writes, he doesn't exactly refute Michael Ullmans findings but chooses to reach a different conclusion & although Michael Ullman's conclusions are persuasive ( I think I might be persuaded) especially about the RLM81/82 origins & the reasons we see various schemes incorporating dark green shades (I'd largely forgotten this bit) I can't help but feel his conclusions lack a smoking gun so much as a strongly held conviction that fits the circumstances of his extensive research, maybe more so than Paul L's findings. Either way, it comes down (imho) to a case of different nomenclature describing the same thing & I for one have got something out of the re-reading of it all, even if its maybe to not get too hung up on labels but to apply the wisdom common to both authorsl,  IMHO.

Steve.

Edited March 18, 2018 by stevehnz

[Graham Boak]

Having been modelling (if then without any great interest in Luftwaffe colours) since the 1950s I can add that I knew of no suggestion that 83 was a dark blue in the 1980s, let alone any complete settlement of the 81/82/83 matter.  The only reference around to dark blue as a colour came from intelligence reports out of Italy, discussing what was found on abandoned Ju 88s, and there was no reference to any RLM designation.  As I recall, It was discounted by some who thought that they knew better.  I thought that I was keeping track of all significant new works on the subject: it would be very interesting to see just what I apparently was missing - and why it doesn't feature in those books which were taken as being the key references at the time.  And since.

[Vonbraun]

Considering that two prominent researchers in the field (Michael Ullmann and Jerry Crandall) are of substantially differing views on the nature of RLM 83 and the fact that we are having this discussion would lead me to believe that the matter of the late war Luftwaffe greens is far from settled.

[FAAMAN]

Dug this out, it's from my "4+ Publications" Ta 152's from 2008

I have much earlier refs (at least i think I still do) but at present it's in storage, you can only fit so many books and stuff into an already bulging garage and the home authorities are ALWAYS watching (and judging)

 

Drawing DocS by Neil, on Flickr

 

FW used a 190D drawing to hang the camo on but the text is clear,

I hope this helps the discussion, hopefully we'll nut out the truth, maybe we're both right!!!

Regards all

FAA

[sloegin57]

17 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Having been modelling (if then without any great interest in Luftwaffe colours) since the 1950s I can add that I knew of no suggestion that 83 was a dark blue in the 1980s, let alone any complete settlement of the 81/82/83 matter.  The only reference around to dark blue as a colour came from intelligence reports out of Italy, discussing what was found on abandoned Ju 88s, and there was no reference to any RLM designation.  As I recall, It was discounted by some who thought that they knew better.  I thought that I was keeping track of all significant new works on the subject: it would be very interesting to see just what I apparently was missing - and why it doesn't feature in those books which were taken as being the key references at the time.  And since.

I agree with Graham Boak.  having been attempting to model for around the same time, the only reference I have to Dark Blue is in Part 1 of an article in Aircraft Illustrated for January 1969 by a J.Richard Smith entitled "A plain man's guide to Luftwaffe camouflage and markings" part one, where it is listed as RLM 24 and used for lettering and special identifications.  It is only recently, within the past decade, that RLM 83 has been associated with Dark Blue.  

 

I can add no other comment except that my knowledge of WWII Luftwaffe camouflage is limited to the kit instructions when building/painting.

 

Dennis

[stevehnz]

To be fair to Neil here we seem to be looking at RLM 83 as two seperate issues, a/ was there ever an RLM83, dark green or anything else & b/ if the was a colour called RLM83, was it dark green or dark blue. FWIW, I think the experts are still not in agreement  on this, we know there was a dark & light green as well as a brown violet. Michael Ullman in the links I posted above seems to believe the dark green was a variant of RLM 81 or the use of RLM 70/71 being used up from old stock & that RLM 83 was a dark blue. Paul Lucas suggests that the designation of RLM 83 for dark blue never became current due to the changing situation in the Mediterranean theatre & was later assigned to a dark green colour.  I've not read his work closely but it appears from Von Braun's post that Jerry Crandall may favour RLM 83 as a dark green too. Be fore I confuse myself, I feel that unless one is uber obsessed with knowing exactly just what the status quo was in 1944/45, & we do need people to know this for completeness, from a modelling POV, using RLM83 as a dark green designator is convenient if nothing else, RLM82 was the lighter green & RLM81 was the brownie/olivey colour. Simples?

Steve.

[Kaldrack]

There is a reason why both Ullmann and Crandall differ in opinion. It is the same reason why Ullmann's new research differs from all previously published material on these later war paints. Previous to Michael Ullmann's discovery there was only a speculated line of thought that RLM 83 had to be a dark green. No period document evidence exists which gives the term "RLM 83" while being accompanied by a descriptive colour term like "Dunkelgrün" (dark green). So it was always merely speculation that RLM 83 was a dark green. Below I post a reply by Michael Ullmann sourced from one of the topics linked earlier in this topic:

 

"Hola,

 

First, when I wrote the text for Jerry's book I describe the knowledge base then. Today the text must be updated with my latest research results. Text in a book could only be a snap-shoot of the knowledge then.

And again you must keep in mind that the RLM released a, today undiscovered (Keep in mind the also today undiscovered "Tarnatlas" published in 1944 and mentioned in Sammelmitteilung 2), regulation that old stock of paint must used up before the new should be used. If you have uneven stocks of old and new paint, you must use the old colour with the new one. I am pretty sure this leads to RLM 70 or 74/82 and RLM 81/71 or 75 painted aircrafts. And the RLM 81 or 70/75 combination leads to the formerly known "RLM 83 darkgreen/75" combination.

Best Regards"

 

Ullmann mentions that there are different reports that were obviously drawn up and sent at different points in time which mention the term "RLM 83" with the additional descriptive terms of "dunkelblauer", "dunkelblaue" and lastly "dunkelblau":

 

Test order E2-45/31: (Development and verification of camouflage for the Mediterranean Sea)

Report August 1943: Alongside RLM73 a 'dark blue' colour will be used. Flight test in the near future.

Report September 1943: Using the camouflage pattern 'Land' and 'Sea' with RLM73 and the dark blue colour 300/III suggested for introduction.

Report November 1943: Closed with report dated 10th November 1943. Colour RLM83 'DARK BLUE' with RLM72 for Sea - and RLM70 for land aircraft suggested for introduction.

Sammelmitteilung 2, dated 15th August 1944: …on the dark shades RLM72, RLM73, RLM75, RLM81, RLM82, RLM83 …. (no colour was stated).

 

Original German text:

 

RLM 83 Dunkelblau

 

RLM 83 eine Fabtonbezeichnung, welche bis heute immer in Zusammenhang mit RLM81/82 verwendet wurde. RLM 83 wurde, auch von mir in früheren Publikationen, als Dunkelgrün bezeichnet und immer im
Zusammenhang mit einer RLM83/75 - Tarnung an Jagdflugzeugen genannt.

 

Klärung anhand von Originaldokumenten erbrachte nun weitere Recherchearbeit. Bei Studium von Berichten der Erprobungsstelle Travemünde stießt ich auf den Auftrag E2-45/21. Auftragstitel “Entwicklung und
Erprobung einer Tarnung für Mittelmeereinsatz". In Statusmeldungen dazu wird berichtet:

• August 1943: Wahrscheinlich kommt außer Farbton 73 (dunkelgrün) noch ein dunkelblauer in Frage. Abschließender Erfahrungsflug über Mittelmeer demnächst.
• September 1943: Unter Beibehaltung des Fleckenschemas für Sichtschutz “Land“ und “See“ wird neben dem Farbton 72 der dunkelblaue Farbton 300/III zur Einführung vorgeschlagen.
• November 1943: Abgeschlossen mit S-Bericht vom 10.11.43. Farbton 83 “dunkelblau" in Verbindung mit Farbton 72 “schwarzgrün" für See- und 70 “dunkelgrün” für Landflugzeuge zur Einführung empfohlen.

Für weitere Fragen stehe ich gerne zur Verfügung.

Michael Ullmann

 

We have to bear in mind that on three completely different period documents the term "Dark Blue" is used when specifically describing either "RLM 83" directly or the development of a "Dark Blue" colour for use on aircraft operating in the Mediterranean.

 

So that means that to date we have various period wartime documents mentioning "RLM 83" as a "Dark Blue" yet not one single period document mentioning "RLM 83" as being a "Dark Green" with only the post-war speculations of certain researchers being the only reason RLM 83 has ever been suggested as a dark green...

 

One mention of a "dark blue" in one document could be argued as a misunderstanding of terms, but three separate mentions of a "dark blue" is pretty conclusive in my opinion. A dark blue can in no way be misconstrued as being a dark green. The German terms for both hues are pretty standard and completely differentiated.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Kaldrack

[FalkeEins]

1 hour ago, Kaldrack said:

Previous to Michael Ullmann's discovery there was only a speculated line of thought that RLM 83 had to be a dark green...We have to bear in mind that on three completely different period documents the term "Dark Blue" is used when specifically describing either "RLM 83" directly or the development of a "Dark Blue" colour for use on aircraft operating in the Mediterranean. No period document evidence exists which gives the term "RLM 83" while being accompanied by a descriptive colour term like "Dunkelgrün" (dark green). So it was always merely speculation that RLM 83 was a dark green.

  Playing devil's advocate here. Three separate mentions. Yes, but of a colour that doesn't/didn't actually exist. The document that Ullmann quotes talks of 'development and testing' of a colour for use over the Med, followed by 'probable' 'suggested' and finally 'recommended'  - all words used in conjunction with 'development' and 'testing'. I understand that to mean that the colour - admittedly and apparently designated '83' - had probably not (yet) been conceived and approved (by this one seaplane/maritime specific testing centre), far less introduced (...zur Einführung vorgeschlagen) The following sentence from Ullmann's German text has not been translated above.   " RLM 83 is a colour designation that until today has always been used  in connection with  RLM81/82 and has always been described in previous publications - even by myself - as a 'dark green ' and always in connection with RLM83/75 for fighter camo schemes..".

 

[Graham Boak]

The evidence from Italy and Switzerland shows that a dark blue was indeed used on maritime attack Ju88s.  Linking this to documents mentioning the intended use of such a colour on just such aircraft is hardly evidence that the colour didn't exist.  It may just about be possible that we have two entirely independent dark blues, one without subsequent service use and another with service use but without evidence of any previous thought, let alone preliminary trials and testing - but it is pretty b*****y unlikely.  That we are still missing a direct link is true, but there is always the argument that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - which I think can reasonably be applied in this case.

 

The statement credited to Ullmann that 83 has always been described as linked to 83/75, in connection with 81/82 schemes, I suspect is being quoted out of context because as it stands it simply isn't true.  Yes it was always mentioned in the context of the use of colours 81 and 82 (which isn't quite the same as an 81/82 scheme), but not always with 75.  Schemes showing latewar fighters in two shades of green certainly go back to the Kookaburra books, if no earlier.  Though the matter is complicated by early confusion over the lighter green (initially known as 83, now known to be 82) this doesn't affect the use of the two together, and (believed to be) separate from the brown 81.  Use of a dark green with 75 was also known, although at this early stage it was suggested that this showed the use of residual stocks of 71.  I admit being unclear (with the benefit of later study) quite where and why the fighter producers had spare stocks of 71, and perhaps the newer dark green would have been used.  Or indeed, as shown above, the brown 81. 

 

Which leads to the suggestion that the number 83 was used once and then re-allocated.  This would seem to be very odd, although apparently not without precedence.  There is a recent thread on Luftwaffe research group talking about 67 being applied to two separate colours (although the matter is clouded by the "export colours" business), and the desert colours 78 and 79 existed in two forms - although these at least were closely related and direct replacements.  The latter is clearly not the case with 83.  For this reason a new dark green can be expected to have been given a new number.

 

Given the conditions prevailing in 1945 (and thinking of the variations in the similar colour US Olive Drab) it is surely(?) more likely that 81 existed in at least two variations, one browner and the other greener.

[Kaldrack]

Yes Neil, but we have the following time frame of events:

 

August 1943: Testing and evaluation of a 'dark blue' colour for use on aircraft operating in the Med.

September 1943: The 'dark blue' colour has now been given a temporary name: 300/III and due to the outcomes of the previously mentioned tests and evaluations is now suggested for introduction.

May-September 1943: Various elements of KG 76 based at Foggia, Italy. Eye witness report of blue camouflaged Ju 88s in use at Foggia. Were KG 76 testing the blue colour?

August-September 1943: Various elements of KG 54 based at Foggia, Italy prior to moving onto Bergamo, Italy. Were KG 54 also testing the blue colour?

21 October 1943: A 1./KG 54 Ju 88 A-4 lands by mistake in Switzerland and is interned. The Swiss report mentions the camouflage as: "Farbe: Oberseite Wasser - und Wüstentarnung, Unterseite Schwarz"

10th November 1943: The new colour (previously "300/III") has now been given the official designation "RLM 83" "DARK BLUE" and is recommended for introduction.

21 January 1944: A 6./KG 54, Ju 88 A-14, WNr.550296, B3+AP crashes at Horten Priory, Sellinge, Kent. The post crash report mentions: "Some very deep blue paint was found on the upper surface of the aircraft, and it seems probable that it had been operating on the anti-shipping sorties in the Mediterranean area at a very recent date."

 

The original crash report detailing the onsite investigation on the Horten Priory Ju 88 was made on 24th January 1944. Nothing is mentioned relating to the camouflage on this initial report. On 8th February an additional report was made by a "H. G. Morison, Flight Lieutenant" which possibly due to more detailed investigation of the wreckage mentioned that it was painted in the "very deep blue paint". This later report seems to indicate that Flight Lieutenant H. G. Morison had knowledge of "blue" painted aircraft operating against shipping in the Med. What else would lead him to such a statement without knowing of some existing reports or rumors of dark blue camouflaged aircraft operating in the Med? It also happens to be the case that the Horten Priory Ju 88 had in fact been operating in the Med only weeks prior to it crashing.

 

 

 

[tempestfan]

I have always stayed out of discussions like that, and this one in particular due to me not being very interested in WW II Luftwaffe, but if I may add my two Pfennige in the form of a couple of thoughts:

 

- I fail to see the requirement for a blue for med sorties vanishing at the end of 1943 - the Battle of Cassino, which is considerably down the Italian boot, lasted into May '44. Likewise, there was a presence in Greece (I think it lasted until at least late 1944), Yugoslawia and France, which all would have been in a location to attack allied supply ships.

 

- I do not know if the claim is right, but if it is: Why has no document been found yet, despite apparently exhaustive research, which supports the "Grün 83", especially in the relevant official camouflage diagrams (like presented by Neil above) ?

 

- Synthetic resins for camou paint require - I think - mineral oil or coal hydration products, both not in exactly abundant supply for most of the war and the situation rapidly deteriorating in the period in question. Dito for the general transportation situation, especially from early fall 1944 onwards when much of Germany was easily reachable for fighter bombers hunting trains and convoys. In such circumstances, it wouldn't be my highest priority to introduce a new "Dunkelgrün", however much better it may have been suited as compared to 71 - which likely was around in quantities but of not much use after most bomber building was suspended -, at least not without making provision old stocks may be used up.

 

- The worsening and finally desperate supply situation may, repeat *** MAY*** have caused paint producers, if and when it was still possible to produce paint, of using substitues for some ingredients, or not using a particular ingredient at all if it was unavailable. If 81 was a brown - maybe an olive brown -, a lack/substitution of one constituent may shift *** possibly *** the colour to the Braunviolett as sometimes seen; or vice versa. Not in the sense of "anything goes", but "as best as circumstances permit". I can't imagine that any RLM inspector or whoever was in charge supervising any specific producer would choose to reject a fighter painted with paint from a a defective lot from fall '44 onwards.

[Graham Boak]

The introduction of new colours in 1944 was precisely that:  a response to the shortage of suitable pigments for those in current use, rather than being purely driven by a requirement for a "better suited" set of colours.  This wasn't something that just affected Germany: in the middle of the war both the British Army and the Royal Navy had to abandon the use of their standard greens in order to save the appropriate pigment for RAF use.  There has been considerable discussion on the apparent changes to 76, and the perhaps mythical 84, being driven by further shortages.  The abandoning of underside colours on German fighters late in the war speaks for the overall shortage of materials (and perhaps implicitly the problems of distribution).

 

The probable reason that no documentation has been found is that much German documentation was destroyed at or before the end of the war, either deliberately or as a result of the fighting.  Or perhaps just because it was hardly a high priority with the winners or the losers.  However, as there are still gaps in the documentation for the use of various RAF colours, I don't think that too much should be read into such gaps in the German side.  The contents of the archives are what survived the war, the collection process and subsequent years of examination and weeding.  Not all archivists would agree with our opinion on the more important documents.

 

 

[JPuente54]

THIS is the reason(one of the most important anyway) I have become a member here at Britmodeller! That RLM 83 was a blue and not a green; is fascinating. Now if we can get the specs and a paint chip..... There is a similar thread on the "Cold War" forum concerning MiG-15s flown in the Korean War. These discussions are what help us improve our skills, knowledge, and our models. I would love to see the scheme(s) for the Med. based Ju-88s with the RLM 83 as one of the colors. The above posters have added to mine, and, no doubt, others knowledge of Luftwaffe camouflage. I hope to read more about this.

Joe

 

[Jerry Crandall]

Hi all,

  Please go back and read the posting where I quote the colors described in the The Aeroplane Spotter. Again there is no mention of any brown such as RLM 81 Brown Violet on this Ta 152. It is interesting that Michael Ullman's document calling out RLM 83 as dark blue on the other hand I have a small dark green chip from an Italian paint company that made paint for the Luftwaffe in WWII that is marked 83.The big problem is the  documents relating to colors were ordered destroyed before the end of the war so all we have are bits and pieces to deal with. We have no idea what some of the late war colors were named or numbered if indeed they were numbered although there a lot of theories.For instance, the light green that is found on Fw 190s , D-9s and even He 111s. Existing examples has this color over painted RLM 76 Light Blue and even along with 76. No it is not a late version of RLM 76. The neutral gray found on D-9s etc. So far no known documents explaining these. Some of these diagrams that exist calling out color do not refer to the colors as RLM. Existing Dora 9 parts have the combination of light green under surfaces with Bright Green and Dark Green with brown mottling. We have a sample from a Bf 109 K-4 that is chocolate brown and dark green. Anyone like to guess as to the RLM numbers?

   Cheers, Jerry