Handley Page Victor B.1 and 2 differences

[71chally]

Seems that there may be an appetite for detailing the differences between the Handley Page Victor B.1 and B.2.

This would be helpful for conversions using the new Airfix, or the old Matchbox kit, both Mk.2s, the latter a K.2.

 

Published dimensions are,

B.1

Span 110' Length 114'11" Height 28' 1 1/2"

B.2

Span 120' Length 114'11" Height 28' 1"

 

Obvious visual differences to my eye,

The main wing centre section and intakes are slimmer on the Sapphire powered B.1.

The B.1 fin has a clean formm leading edge, the B.2 had a pronounced leading edge fairing with intake at the base of the fin.

The B.1 wasn't fitted with the Kuchemann 'carrots' or underwing tanks.

The B.2 had a small aerial mounted above the feel unit intake at the extreme nose, and pop up ram air turbine inlet scoops either side of the upper aft fuselage.

 

Be interesting to know, are the outer wings essentially the same, bearing in mind differing leading edge flap and drooped leading edge arrangements?

Is the fuselage identical?

Is the extra 10 ft of span made up in the wing centre section?

 

Be grateful for any info at all on this, and please feel free to add any of your knowledge here, thanks.

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

According to this site, http://www.airvectors.net/avvictor.html#m3

 

'A stretched wing, extended 46 centimeters (18 inches) at the root and 1.07 meters (3 feet 6 inches) at the tip, for an overall stretch of 3.06 meters (10 feet).'

 

This would agree with your 10 feet difference.

 

RG
 

[Vulcanicity]

I think the tip stretch was outboard of the ailerons, seem to recall that the latter come right up almost to the wingtip on the B1, and there's several feet of wing outboard of this in the B2.

Don't forget that the B1 initially at least had a slimmer tailcone, although I suspect this was just differences in tail warning radar, rather than a completely different section including the airbrakes.

Does anyone know whether the HDU units (centreline and wing) fitted to the Mk.1 tankers differed from those on  the K2s, by the way?

[Ratch]

Is the wing the only difference?

[71chally]

13 hours ago, Scimitar said:

'A stretched wing, extended 46 centimeters (18 inches) at the root and 1.07 meters (3 feet 6 inches) at the tip, for an overall stretch of 3.06 meters (10 feet).'

That inboard extension is really obvious when you look at head on pictures.  The B.1 intakes start pretty much at the fuselage to wing join, the B.2 intakes are noticeable further outboard.

In theory the inboard extension would have moved the main undercarriage units outboard by 18 inches as well, or was this compensated for in the redesign?

 

Also that tip extension, is that what was essentially removed for the K.2 wing modification?  3'6" seems to be about the same amount.

 

Re HDUs, believe the K.1 centreline unit was MK.17 and the K.2 a Mk.17A, don't what the differences were though.

Think they both used the Mk.20B wing pods,

 

BTW these pics of the B(K).1A at Duxford are nice and arty, but provide excellent detail shots,

http://igor113.livejournal.com/647009.html

Edited December 14, 2016 by 71chally

[shatters]

Can anyone tell by looking at the parts breakdown whether airfix will produce the B1 ?

 

Phil

[canberra kid]

A bit of wing thing

 

John

[mcdonnell]

35 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

A bit of wing thing

 

John

 

Thanks,John - Appreciate that!😬

[71chally]

Brilliant thank you John, more illustrations like that (particularly of the wing) would be a real treat!

 

Some more dimensions for the B.1,

 

Undercarriage track 30' 2"

Tailplane span 32' 8"

Fuselage length (nose probe to tail cone) 102' 5"

[mcdonnell]

Maybe there'll be a 1:1 scale WIP appearing soon?😉👍

[canberra kid]

2 hours ago, mcdonnell said:

Maybe there'll be a 1:1 scale WIP appearing soon?😉👍

I'd be hard pressed to do a 1/72 build Paul, but I have more info for a one to one  

John

[canberra kid]

Here you are James, more wing things.

John

 

 

[canberra kid]

This is a new one on me, window dispenser 

 

John

[sloegin57]

49 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

This is a new one on me, window dispenser 

 

John

Only on Blue Steel and SR aircraft John.  I have no idea what the K2's used them for.

Dennis

[71chally]

Older references quite often refer to them as Window of Chaff housings.  I believe the actual discharge points were the slots that you can see under the bodies at the wing trailing edge line.  

They were a clever modification by reducing drag end increasing stowage at the same time.

 

Great illustration again, can't get enough of these, thank you John!

 

[sloegin57]

The window dispensers illustrated were known as Kuchemann Carrots or Wykham Bodies.  Used also on the Convair 990

 

Dennis

[71chally]

Precisely, Whitcomb at NASA and Kuchemann at the RAE were aerodynamicists that worked on area ruling principles, whereby adding mass in the right areas reduces overall drag in the transonic regime.

The Victor pods were primarily added for that reason, and also handily housed window dispensers. 

But, Interesting that earlier references (Flight etc) and APs refer to them as Window/Chaff housings, but in the tanker era they were more commonly known as Kuchemann carrots.

Edited December 17, 2016 by 71chally

[Vulcanicity]

I think their removal was considered at the time of the K2 conversions, as the chaff dispensers were now redundant, but it was realised that the aerodynamic benefits of retaining them far outweighed the weight gain of removal.

Thanks for all those diagrams! The tip stretch is obvious if you look outboard of Rib 630 in the first two figures.

I want to do my Victor as a two-point tanker, so I'm really hoping some enterprising aftermarketer takes the plunge and does a conversion. From looking at the kit sprues there's no chance of a B1

Edited December 18, 2016 by Vulcanicity

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

Just remembered the different nose pitot

[sloegin57]

16 minutes ago, Scimitar said:

Just remembered the different nose pitot

 

 

The "pitot" on the nose was an intake for the feel-sim bellows.  The additional aerial above it in the small photo was for the ILS and only applicable to the Retrofit aircraft - Blue Steel and SR.  The intake was the same on all marks originally until the Mk.2's were converted.

 

Dennis

Edited December 18, 2016 by sloegin57
spelling "feel-sim" correctly

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

I too should have had "pitot;" as I didn't know what it was!

Now I know what it's for but not what the 'feel-sum bellows'is

I should have also said that the small photo is the B2  as I don't know of any B1 having that aerial but it seems to be on most of the B2 series if not all.

 

Always something to learn on here isn't there.

Richard

[sloegin57]

6 minutes ago, Scimitar said:

I too should have had "pitot;" as I didn't know what it was!

Now I know what it's for but not what the 'feel-sum bellows'is

I should have also said that the small photo is the B2  as I don't know of any B1 having that aerial but it seems to be on most of the B2 series if not all.

 

Always something to learn on here isn't there.

Richard

 

I have corrected that post Scimitar - it should be "feel-sim" not "sum"

 

The feel sim on the Victor consisted of sets of bellows mounted under the cabin floor to the rear of the scanner bay.  They were connected to the flying controls by sets of rods and bearings (spring loaded I think).  As air pressure through the feel sim pressure head increased, it it increased the resistance of the controls through to the cabin by pressurising the bellows thus giving the two pilots a degree of feed back.

 

All marks of Victor had this, only the Retrofit and subsequent K2 aircraft had the ILS aerial mounted above the shortened pressure head - the Mk.1 and Mk.1A aircraft and their tanker variants did not

 

Dennis

[canberra kid]

John

 

[71chally]

2 hours ago, Scimitar said:

Just remembered the different nose pitot

 

On 12/12/2016 at 8:11 PM, 71chally said:

The B.2 had a small aerial mounted above the feel unit intake at the extreme nose,

 

I must admit though until now I thought that the lead-in aerial was fitted to all Mk.2s, other than the prototype.

 

Another difference is the B.2s Blackburn Artouste APU and associated intake mounted under stb'd inner wing,

I'm not sure how often this was opened, always when on the ground, or just when it was running?

[sloegin57]

1 hour ago, canberra kid said:

John

 

 

That diagram refers to original B.Mk.2's.  I'll dig some drawings out from my course notes.  The window dispensers were transferred from under the nose to the wing mounted carrots on the Retrofit aircraft.  The B.Mk.1 and B.Mk1a installation was similar.  B.Mk.1's had no ECM and only Orange Putter tail warning radar whereas the B.Mk.1A and B.Mk.2 had ECM and Red Steer (AI Mk.20 "Green Willow", turned through 180 degrees and fitted to Victors and Vulcans).

 

Dennis

 

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by sloegin57