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P-51 Mustang STGB IV Chat


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@Johnson  Hi Charlie,

 

The side view above is also presented in Merle Olmsted's 'The Yoxford Boys' with the following caption:

"... It was received at the 8th Air Force depot at Wharton in the first week of September, 1944, just off the freighter from Newark N.J. It would have arrived at Leiston a week or two later, where it was apparently immediately painted in RAF green and Anderson flew it like that until winter came on, when his crew stripped it back to bare metal. It was eventually scrapped in November, 1945."

The drawings on p.327 ibd. show the camouflaged version with invasion stripes under the fuselage and with white recognition bands all around wings and horizontal tailplane, and the later bare metal version with invasion stripes on lower fuselage and on the wing underside (!), which doesn't make sense in view of the sequence and dates given above.

 

Because, in  September 1944 SHAEF ordered that the invasion stripes be erased on the under-surfaces of the wings (Freeman, The Mighty Eighth p.284).

This would result in the following most likely markings: When received, 44-14450 was camouflaged and received white recognition bands and under-fuselage invasion stripes. When stripped the invasion stripes and the white bands (also on the top surfaces) survived, which can be seen in the close-up picture.

Even if the dates given by Olmsted were not correct, 44-14450, a P-51D-10-NA, could not have been delivered before the upper wing invasion stripes were banned, so the apparently black colour next to the white stripe can't be a remnant of invasion stripes.

 

Osprey Aces 96, Mustang Aces of the 357th Fighter Group, shows the camouflaged version in the same guise as in Olmsted's book and offers an interesting addition to the aircraft's fate: "44-14450 was subsequently passed on to Lt James Taylor (who renamed her 'Pretty Pix' ..., and on 14 January he claimed his solitary aerial victory in it." This statement is supported by the American Air Museum website http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/20970.

 

Well, our hobby has its challenges, doesn't it?

 

Cheers, Michael

 

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There's a shot from a bit higher angle, but unfortunately small image, on this page.  Oh, wait, the shot (same place) with pilot on wing should reveal a black band, shouldn't it?

Edited by gingerbob
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Great, the higher angle reveals that there was only a small piece of the white band left at the leading edge.

There is indeed no (black) stripe under the blanket next to the pilot.

So, no ID stripes at all?

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3 hours ago, Toryu said:

Well, our hobby has its challenges, doesn't it?

Certainly does Micheal. But satisfying to tease out these details. Many thanks for your research, fascinating stuff.

 

3 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Oh, wait, the shot (same place) with pilot on wing should reveal a black band, shouldn't it?

Thanks for finding the extra photos Bob, yes I'd have thought so too.

 

3 hours ago, Toryu said:

So, no ID stripes at all?

I don't think so Michael. Iain Wyllie got it right!

 

My guess is that the upper wing, the front at least, hadn't been entirely stripped of paint. I read that when the order came to remove the camouflage the crew worked overnight to strip the paint using kerosene, so some of the paint may have been more resistant and remained, hence a remnant of the white stripe that can be seen on the wing of the green 'Old Crow'. This may also be true of the outer u/c door which appears to be similar to the drop tank - grey?

 

I'd already noticed that the green under the name Old Crow on the engine cowling seems very dark and may well be the original RAF green paint, not olive drab. And, Old Crow appears to be outlined in black, like it was on the P-51B. This could cause me a minor problem as the old Super Scale decals has it entirely white. Oh well, that's all I have.

 

So I've learned a lot tonight and many thanks chaps for your help!

 

Best wishes,

Edited by Johnson
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9 hours ago, Johnson said:

I'd already noticed that the green under the name Old Crow on the engine cowling seems very dark and may well be the original RAF green paint, not olive drab.

Yes, it makes no sense to strip off the RAF green and the aircraft name and then to apply the anti glare panel in OD and reapply the aircraft name.

 

AW

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I just bought new (well, secondhand 2006) Super Scale decals for Bud's P-51D 'Old Crow'.

 

Interestingly, for Bud's P-51D, they specify a 'slimmer' version of the name Old Crow for the plane when it was stripped of its paint. This seems to contradict that theory ⬆️ that when the paint was stripped they kept the name and RAF green paint underneath the name on the top of the engine cowling. It seems to be backed up by the pics I have of Old Crow, though the camo pic I have is very small and low resolution. Does anyone have a better one?

 

greenoldcrowmag

 

Old Crow photo low res 1080 x 606

 

I shall definitely use the slimmer 'Old Crow' name, but the colour underneath? My feeling is to use fresh, darker, Olive Drab. Any thoughts on this folks?

 

Cheers,

 

 

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@Johnson  Sorry Charlie, but I don't see any difference. The full camo picture seems a bit compressed lengthwise. How about measuring the width of the letters plus the length of the nickname against the distance from prop to canopy and putting the figures on both pictures into relation. That's my usual approach when I want to be sure that decals are correctly sized.

 

P.S. Allegedly they stripped Old Crow over night. It's difficult to imagine that they applied the nickname anew in the light of a dimmed candle...

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36 minutes ago, Toryu said:

Sorry Charlie, but I don't see any difference. The full camo picture seems a bit compressed lengthwise.

 

Hi Michael,

 

You're completely right, but this isn't quite what I meant, sorry I didn't make myself clear. It isn't the length or height of the whole name, it's the thickness of the individual strokes of the letters that makes up the name 'Old Crow' that seem different to me (and the person who did the research on the new SuperScale decals, someone called Jim Anderson). I'd thought that they were thinner from the photos I have, and the information with the new decals appears to confirm this. But my photo of the camouflaged P-51D is so low res it makes meaningful comparison unreliable.

 

Cheers,

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@Johnson

Yes, the strokes - that‘s what I meant too, but I thought this would narrow the whole letters.

If it‘s just the strokes it may be that the white overpowered a bit on one picture and not on the other. Happens sometimes. 🤔

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17 minutes ago, Toryu said:

it may be that the white overpowered a bit on one picture and not on the other. Happens sometimes.

Quite agree, something to do with saturation? So... could be the same, the letters just look fatter. I will put a post on the general WW2 BM forum and see if anyone has a better photo of Old Crow in camo, I can't find one but it must be out there!

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To those that know. In the event that builds are not finished by the deadline, can we still continue to post our WiP even though the gallery will be shut.

 

Stuart

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1 hour ago, Courageous said:

To those that know. In the event that builds are not finished by the deadline, can we still continue to post our WiP even though the gallery will be shut.

 

Stuart

Good evening Stuart

The Gallery will close at midnight on the 15th those who have not managed to finish their build on time will be able to continue and finish on the thread build ..

 

All the best ..

Patrice

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Golikell said:

Since I don't, or hardly, build during the week (due to studies, besides my daytime job), I am not able to finish any of my entries 😢  

Good morning Golikell

Sorry to read that but as I wrote above you can still finish your build after the deadline of March 15th ..

 

Patrice

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2 hours ago, TEMPESTMK5 said:

Good morning Golikell

Sorry to read that but as I wrote above you can still finish your build after the deadline of March 15th ..

 

Patrice

Yes I did read that...  And I most certainly will continue and finish it. Just managing expectations.

Edited by Golikell
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All day yesterday I thought that this GB had ended the day before.  This morning I noticed the date while looking at my laptop!  My desktop computer developed Alzheimer's a couple of days ago (I think the hard drive is dead).  And I've had a cold for about three days.  Not exactly a grand finale from my perspective!

 

Apologies once again for dropping the ball of, umm, actually building something.  Congratulations to the many who participated!  I'll work up a statistical summary later on.

 

bob

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Is that 57 Builds in the Gallery? That's a fantastic performance in my book. Thanks everyone for making it such an enjoyable STGB - I learned a mountain about P-51's, and modelling in general (again)! Thanks to Patrice @TEMPESTMK5 for hosting. See you in the next GB, everyone. All the best. Mike

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Good afternoon all Mustang fans

 I want to thank all the participants thanks to you this GB was a great success with many wonderful achievements congratulations !!!

I would like to repeat that those who have not managed to finish their build on time to place photos in the Gallery will be able to continue and finish on the thread build ..

See you for the next Mustang STGB in a few months ..

All the best

Patrice

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1 hour ago, gingerbob said:

All day yesterday I thought that this GB had ended the day before.  This morning I noticed the date while looking at my laptop!  My desktop computer developed Alzheimer's a couple of days ago (I think the hard drive is dead).  And I've had a cold for about three days.  Not exactly a grand finale from my perspective!

 

Apologies once again for dropping the ball of, umm, actually building something.  Congratulations to the many who participated!  I'll work up a statistical summary later on.

 

bob

Good afternnon Bob

Thank you for your help ...

I wish you a fast recovery  from your cold ..

All the best

Patrice

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1 hour ago, TEMPESTMK5 said:

See you for the next Mustang STGB in a few months ..

Great. But I cant see it on the GB calendar. 

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1 hour ago, Cheshiretaurus said:

Great. But I cant see it on the GB calendar. 

Good afternoon CT

I must  start the process for a new Mustang GB but I'm afraid we have to wait for a while ..

All the best

Patrice

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Hi Patrice,

When can we start the impossible process of voting? And can we vote for more than one as theres loads of great builds?

 

Thanks for hosting a really exciting stgb 🙏👍

Edited by Dansk
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I think we usually get 3 votes?

 

It might also be nice if they could be separated by scale?

 

Understandably 1/48 tends to attract more votes.

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