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TEMPESTMK5

P-51 Mustang STGB IV Chat

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33 minutes ago, BlueNosers352nd said:

that back lower portion being straighter just is "yuck" to m

I have the same issue with it, but the smoother overall appearance looks more 'fifties' to me, and therefore goes better with the jets.

I vote for H because we've got too many Ds already - it will be difficult to follow them all.

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Come now, we know that there's only one right answer: Build them all!

 

(Edit: and I see that that's what you're planning to do.  Good on ya, Mungo!)

Edited by gingerbob

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Reposting in a more appropriate place!

 

Hi all, 

 

I'm appealling, I hope, to the many Mustang experts that frequent BM.

 

My question is about the putties panel joints and did maintenance depots continue to maintain the putty after WW2, through the Cold War period (hence this forum)? My real interest is those aircraft that made their way to Latin countries. I made a statement in one post recently that post-WW2 this putty wasn't replaced after majot overhauls but the truth is that I have no evidence to support this. 

 

I hope that somebody knows :). Thanks in hope!

 

Martin

Edited by RidgeRunner

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Not an expert by any means, but post-war RCAF operated Mustangs between 1947-59 all appear to have smoothed wing surfaces. They were first delivered in the standard war time finish of painted wings and natural metal everywhere else. Due to the workload required to maintain the natural metal finish, the RCAF began painting the entire airframe with aluminium lacquer in 1950. Some of the RCAF survivors made their way to South America and some are still flying in private hands.

 

Cheers,

Rich

Edited by Rich B

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Wether it happened or not, it seems to have been the intention that the wings remain puttied and smoothed. When the camouflage paint was removed from Mustangs,  NAA advised USAAF bases  on how to avoid/repair damage to the puttied areas to retain the laminar flow effect of the wings. 

To anyone with more than a passing interest in the Mustang I would recommend the book " Building the P-51 Mustang " by Michael O'Leary, which has lots of good quality( black and white )  original photos from NAA and copies of official documents.

 

John

 

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32 minutes ago, Biggles87 said:

When the camouflage paint was removed from Mustangs,  NAA advised USAAF bases  on how to avoid/repair damage to the puttied areas to retain the laminar flow effect of the wings.

 

That's right. However, this practice was usually not followed through in the field, particularly as the effect on laminar flow was considered negligible. Many operational pictures show darker panel lines all over the wing. There were not too many planes that were stripped of full (or even temporary) camouflage before being lost or replaced. Removal of invasion stripes was the most common. Although soluble paint was used for these, stripping could damage the aluminium colour of the wing surface. That's why they were often overpainted in OD or aluminium.

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On this Tamiya P-51B........anyone have any thoughts on replacing the bolt/screw heads, say on the cowl area after sanding/cleanup?   I thought about a piece of hypodermic tubing and just pressing in, but I don't have one that small.   Lightly with a drill bit and call it good?  They look like nothing more than a ring indentation in it.

 

Ideas?  Thanks!

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I print a double line of dots (with a straight (panel) line in-between if necessary) onto a page of clear decal. Scale, dimensions and grey/black colour should be tested on white paper for a satisfactory result. The decal needs a clear coat before watering.

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What colour should the tail wheel well be on the P-51D?  I have seen zinc yellow chromate, interior green and aluminium all used on models, which is correct, or was there variation in this area?

 

AW

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I find beading tools ( normally used in jewelry making ) useful for impressing circles to represent rivets/fasteners.

 

John

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7 hours ago, Andwil said:

What colour should the tail wheel well be on the P-51D?  I have seen zinc yellow chromate, interior green and aluminium all used on models, which is correct, or was there variation in this area?

 

AW

The fuselage interior (except cockpit area) before P-51D-25 was unpainted incl. tail wheel well. Frame support members like spars, stringers, racks etc. were primed with yellow or green zinc chromate to avoid corrosion where they joined the metal sheet. Same for the main wheel bay at factory level. There seem to be examples, however, of overhauled wings with primed wheel bays.

Pictures of coloured interiors usually hint at restored air frames.

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Thanks @Toryu that’s the the way I was leaning, nice to have some confirmation.

 

AW

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As work has temporarily stopped on my pair of Mustangs and won’t start again until after Christmas and the end of the next heat wave forecast for the weekend I’ll take this opportunity for to wish all my fellow P-51 builders, wherever in the world you are and whatever scale you are building in a happy, enjoyable and safe Christmas and. Productive new year.  I hope Santa brings you all lots of kits!


🎄🍻🎅

 

AW

Edited by Andwil
Correcting for fat fingers

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On 24/12/2019 at 17:33, Ratch said:

Merry Christmas back at ya 🎅:cheers:🍾

Merry Christmas Ratch and a question,I remember building Airfix's Mustang out of a poly bag then years  later out of the box with the Swedish option on the 

box top,was this the same kit? Or was the new tool only their second molding of the type.

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On 24/12/2019 at 04:34, Andwil said:

end of the next heat wave forecast

Thank's AW. Heatwave? we had one back in 1976 I remember!

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17 hours ago, stevej60 said:

Merry Christmas Ratch and a question,I remember building Airfix's Mustang out of a poly bag then years  later out of the box with the Swedish option on the 

box top,was this the same kit? Or was the new tool only their second molding of the type.

Well there's the 1958 original

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=166

which was replaced by the 1974 tool

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=1110

which was replaced in turn by the 2014 one

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/viewtopic.php?f=334&t=30729

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52 minutes ago, Ratch said:

Well there's the 1958 original

Thanks Ratch I got the kit for just over four quid on e-bay today in the 10c box still in cellophane,I'll put it in the GB after my current two are done.

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Can I just throw into the mix, some bits and pieces about RAF Mustangs that has been covered in other posts I have made here at Britmodeller and on other forums regarding some specifics of RAF operated Mustangs.  Might be useful to a few of you doing RAF subjects.

 

RAF Mustangs, both early Allison engined and later Merlin models, were all fitted as a part of the standard RAF service operational modification process, with various marks of Sutton Harness, rather than the US style harnesses.  If you go with the version of Sutton Harness that was in use the same time as other RAF fighter types such as Spitfire, Hurricane, Typhoon, Tempest,  for your subject aircraft you usually can't go wrong.

 

Allison Mustangs - the 1/48th scale AM kits do not supply the armour plate that goes behind the pilot's seat.  This is something you need to fabricate out of plastic card - I have put a diagram on one of the build threads for the Group Build.  The armour plate from available photographic and documented evidence appears in a number of colours, ranging from RAF dark green, to what looks like a dull bronze green.  On some of the early Allison Mustang Mk.I aircraft, some photos have shown a round dull-yellow circle on the face of the armour plate, at approximately the pilot's head level, facing toward the front.  Also the AM kits show US style radio gear behind the cockpit.  RAF Allson Mustangs used the appropriate for the time RAF radio gear, so the exact size, shape of the relevant 'boxes' behind the cockit are different from the US radio gear as in the AM kits.  Early on, up until the end of 1942, most of the Mustang Mk.Is were fitted with HF sets as normal practice (a hangover of their Army Cooperation role) which did have the antenna wire from the top of the mast behind the cockpit to the top of the tail fin.  However from late 1942 onwards they were fitted with the standard for the time RAF Fighter radio sets, equivalent to other RAF fighter types of the same period.  When they made the transition to the VHF sets, the long wire antenna was removed and the antenna was just the mast behind the cockpit.  In 1944 the remaining Allison Mustangs in RAF service also started to sprout a few extra antennas, primariy IFF dipoles under the opposite wing to the pitot head - same basic location, other wing - and later also on the Mk.IAs and Mk.IIs in late 1944 they added a UHF dipole under the fuselage centreline in front of the radiator intake.  By that stage they were running two radio sets, one VHF for largely air to ground - to control or to Army units/contact cars, and UHF for air to air.  Use the date of your subject and photos of your subject aircraft to identify the appropriate radio set up.   If a Mustang Mk.II was fitted with the Malcolm Hood, the normal post antenna mounted immediately behind the cockpit was replace by a whip antenna mounted further back on the spine of the aircraft.  To allow the Malcolm Hood to slide back, the post antenna had to go  (I've seen someone model a Mustang with the Malcolm Hood and the post antenna behind the cockpit and another person, an artist do a painting with the same "ooooppppsss!").

 

If modelling a RAF Allison engined Mustang, being depicted as after January 1944, add a circular 'Spitfire style" rear view mirror above the front arch of the cockpit canopy.  Before then they just had the internal mirrors on the inside of the front bow of the cockpit canopy, but after January 1944 a standardised modification for RAF Allison Mustangs still in service was to add the external rear vision mirror.

 

Control Column - this is one that has been the subject of one of the great modelling myths that is hard to put down, all traceable to a couple of photographs that NAA did very early on in their development and production of the Mustang Mk.I, that showed a Mustang cockpit with a RAF style circular grip attached to the top end of the control column.   It was a photo done to show the Air Ministry, RAF and British Purchasing Commission "this is the proposed cockpit and cockpit controls layout, and we've noted you Brits use this type of top on your control sticks."  As it was, to simplify supply and being consistent with other US types already being supplied and used by the RAF, such as the Curtiss P-40, NAA supplied the Mustang with the US style 'pistol grip' control column top section.  They remained a constant on all Mustangs supplied and used by the RAF.  However, and this is the BIG however, I am aware of and have evidence of a very, very, limited number of very early AG serialled Mustang Mk.I aircraft that were modified at unit level to have the US style control column top removed and replaced  by a RAF style circular grip.  This was done for a limited few, senior officers on their 'personal' aircraft.  What is interesting is the source of the circular control column top, coming from another NAA product being supplied to the RAF, the NA Harvard Mk.I.  It was apparenty a simple modification, a few screws, a few wires and done.  However this quickly fell out of use by those senior officers due to the rate of turnover of a number of the early Mustangs as they were withdrawn from Squadrons to go back for further modifications or major servicing and the fact the senior officers could not always guarantee their aircraft would be available due to serviceability, etc.  So to make life easier for everyone,  including other pilots who might have to fly the aircraft, they reverted to the US supplied top.   So basically, US supplied 'pistol grip' type control column top is the go for RAF Mustangs, MkI thru Mk.IVa, plus the one-offs taken on for trials purposes eg A-36, P-51F, P-51G, P-51H.

 

In the ETO, it was a pre-requisite for RAF Mustang Mk.IIIs to be fitted with a Malcolm Hood to be considered as being modified to an operational standard.  So all operational Mustang Mk.IIIs in the ETO would have a Malcolm Hood.  Mustang Mk.IIIs in the MTO, were a mix of aircraft delivered direct from the USA in to that theatre of operations and a more limited number of aircraft that came via the UK.  So in the MTO you will see that the majority of Mustang Mk.IIIs have the normal framed hood and are likely - unless they had been through a major repair or servicing in a RSU or MU, would initially be in US equivalent colour paints.  Any Mustang Mk.IIIs with Malcolm Hoods in the MTO had come via the UK and as a part of the modification process there, they would have been stripped and repainted into a fairly standardised C&M scheme using standard RAF paints for the Day Fighter Scheme.  Again any variation on that for those aircraft would depend if they had been through a RSU or MU in the MTO for major repair or maintenance.

 

 

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On 12/14/2019 at 8:28 PM, Toryu said:

Only the panel lines of the forward half of the wing were filled, up to and including the one flush with the front gun bay door line.

Hi Toryu, Can I ask you - is it just the upper surfaces of the wings that were puttied or the underside also? 

 

Also I’m just curious - do you know if any of this ever ‘flaked off’ / come away from the wing in active service?

edit: ignore this it is answered in the posts above

 

Edited by Dansk

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7 minutes ago, Dansk said:

is it just the upper surfaces of the wings that were puttied or the underside also?

Hi Dansk, upperside and underside panel lines were filled to the same measure.

And yes, it flaked off or at least dirtied so that on some heavily used planes the panel lines were discernible, particularly after removal of invasion stripes.

Cheers, Michael

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Hi guys, I've had a nosey around but can't find the answer I'm looking for so just going to ask.

With regards to wheel bay colour and the colour on the inside of landing gear doors and such. 

What colour would they have been on painted examples of P-51Ds? The ones that are in OD and NG.

Would they have been NG or Silver?

Many thanks

Joss

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afair the ones for US service were chromate yellow/green primer on all inside parts of the u/c.

On RAF ones they were painted aluminium silver except for the beam across the aft which was in chromate yellow/green

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1 minute ago, Black Knight said:

afair the ones for US service were chromate yellow/green primer on all inside parts of the u/c.

On RAF ones they were painted aluminium silver except for the beam across the aft which was in chromate yellow/green

Cheers Black Knight. I'll see what goes with the undercarriage colour!

All the best

Joss

 

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