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Troy Smith

Spitfire DP845, Split flap hinges , 6 cannon wing, Any details?

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a thread on Hyperscale caught  my eye

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1478431065/last-1478643786/(View+All+Messages+In+This+Thread)

 

had a look at Spitfire - The History and Spitfire Story, plus a google...  

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/84705-spitfire-mk-iv-xx/

 

in particular details of the 6 cannon wing and Fowler flaps

 

the Fowler flap mechanism  is seen here

DP845x2.jpg

 

DP845x1_zps2uffibvj.jpg

 

there is this paiting  of the 6 cannon wing bulges

spitfire-mk-iv_12_ss_l_121109153721-580x

 

the bulges look to high and square too me, 

There is a small drawing in Spitfire - the History of the 6 cannon wing, ,  though the bulges look different,  and I suspect they would be more like the wide 2 cannon bulge with an added centre part? (the drawing looks more  like this) 

 

in this shot 

6b02cd76285a4408e9dbfb98e40fe0f5.jpg

2013-12-11210100_zps8db856b4.jpg

 

part of a bulge can be seen just behind the prop blade on the starboard wing,  and I presume somewhere there are more pics of this configuration?

 

Also visible are two of the Fowler flap mechanism, I presume there would be 3 per side? 

 

Would  the small centre section flaps have been retained? 

 

Something for those not at  Telford to contemplate perhaps....

 

cheers

T

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It is hard to see how you could make those little centre section split flap sections do anything useful if you had Fowler flaps elsewhere. You certainly wouldn't need the drag from them.

 

I also don;t buy that flat square-edged bulge. It would be aerodynamic death.

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duly corrected....  I was hoping you might have some of this info buried in your files though.

  

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My understanding is that the 6xcannon installation was only a mockup,  I've certainly never seen a view of any actual installation with feed routes, let alone what would have been the resulting fairing on top of the wing.  However I think we can be sure that it would ramp down to the rear rather than end in a bluff shape.

 

Those are not Fowler flaps - Fowler flaps extend on tracks to the rear before curving down, look at the trailing edge of a Hudson.  These are slotted flaps (as STH says) and the view shows a simple hinge.  Thanks for the reminder - I'd forgotten about those and was thinking that a Mk.IV was a bit too similar to a Mk.XII to bother with a model.

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2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I was hoping you might have some of this info buried in your files though.

 

I probably do, Troy, but it is well buried.  Actually, I think my information is pretty sketchy.  I agree that the six-cannon is a mock-up, though simply hanging the debris on the front would involve some engineering if they flew it that way.  I'll poke around a bit more and report back if I come up with anything further.

 

bob

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Thank bob

so, for discussion, a couple of images from STH. No scanner set up so just photos, so apolgies for lower resolution, but they show details under discussion.

 

the six cannon wing sketch with large bulges

Spitfire%206%20cannon%20wing%20IMG_0592_

 

note bulge shape,  as I mentioned above, think the wide 2 cannon bulge, with a new centre section, and the frontal view of bulges.

wide 2 cannon blisters for comparison 

Cannon_cover_1.jpg

 

for comparison, here's a C wing drawing,  which with some imagination you can see where and how a 3rd cannon could  be fitted. 

spitfire-vc-wing-arrangement.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

2 cannon installation

0_fs.jpg


 

from http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/spitfirecwingbulgesf_1.htm

 

 

I'm having dim memories of a 3 cannon mock up photo on the Martin-Baker MB3 image somewhere..

EDIT

here https://get.google.com/albumarchive/109207897425941419378/album/AF1QipMBMJ6gp_OhZWVy_uwhZinxicDlOQ-zwBOtQGQe?source=pwa

not relevant, but a LOT of neat pics of the various MB types

a side view not online

 

Spitfire%20DP845%20w%20six%20cannon%20si

 

note the 'bump' just visible above the wing.    I assume somewhere there is a rear view shot, as these prototype shots seem to cover all these details.

 

Glad it's been of interest.

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Interesting thread Troy. I've long wondered if the wing was modified internally for the extra cannon & ammo feed, it would gave been a shoe horn job, especially the ammo feed to my mind & for what, the trade off in weight & loss of manouvreability would not have been popular I'm guessing.

Steve.

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I'm with you all the way, Steve.  Four cannon was found too cumbersome for the original Spitfire wing, and wasn't generally adopted until the new wing/ailerons on the 20-series.

 

The Meteor was however designed for six cannon, presumably the Ministry's logical advance on four cannon as the desired fighter armament, but it was found impossible to fit them in.  This was too late for the overall balance, and the design suffered for a long time through having to carry ballast in the nose.  Perhaps the diminishing Luftwaffe bomber threat convinced authority that four cannon would be quite enough for any type they were likely to meet.

Edited by Graham Boak

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Good thing I didn't like my first attempt at converting a Mk XII kit to a Mk IV. I missed the trick on the flaps so simply used a spare  "a" wing. I like the idea of creating a 6 cannon + slotted flaps configuration. Even if impractical on a Spitfire, it would look very unique on my shelf and provide a proper link in my Spitfire collection. 

 

Thanks Troy. 

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On 12/11/2016 at 16:23, Graham Boak said:

These are slotted flaps (as STH says) and the view shows a simple hinge.  Thanks for the reminder - I'd forgotten about those and was thinking that a Mk.IV was a bit too similar to a Mk.XII to bother with a model.

Any other similar examples?

On 12/11/2016 at 17:41, gingerbob said:

 

I probably do, Troy, but it is well buried.  Actually, I think my information is pretty sketchy.  I agree that the six-cannon is a mock-up, though simply hanging the debris on the front would involve some engineering if they flew it that way.  I'll poke around a bit more and report back if I come up with anything further.

 

bob

Hi bob

Just a bump in case said info has surfaced

 

On 12/11/2016 at 18:04, Troy Smith said:

Thank bob

so, for discussion, a couple of images from STH. No scanner set up so just photos, so apolgies for lower resolution, but they show details under discussion.

 

the six cannon wing sketch with large bulges

Spitfire%206%20cannon%20wing%20IMG_0592_

 

And,  while looking at this thread again ( I was pondering on the flap question and thought I'd bump it up)  I just noticed (or maybe reminded myself) that the sketch above appears to show the high altitude extended tips...

I now the shots of DP845 don't show this, but was there any suggestion of this,  (most of my library is packed up so can't check) 

cheers

T

 

 

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Yes, the pointed tips originated with the "Mk.IV" Griffon project.  As for the rest, I'll try to pay more attention soon.

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On 08/02/2019 at 22:24, gingerbob said:

As for the rest, I'll try to pay more attention soon.

revisiting this one.

 

Just wondering if anyone has any information on the split flap hinges, as in better idea of what they look like, the photos are just not quite clear enough.  And just the 3 hinges on the main flap?

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