harveyb258 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Hi guys,continued excellence and thoroughness! I'm still closely following the proceedings.....I have just been so busy that I've had very little time to do anything else other than a quick browse. On the subject of the brake wires, I think I will try the steel wire from https://www.prime-miniatures.co.uk/ .......they have some nice goodies Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Thanks Harvey, for your kind encouragements. Yes, I think a steel wire is indeed the good solution. The question will be the good diameter: 0,5 mm seems to me a good choice. What do you think? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Hi Olivier, I think 0,5mm would be the best choice....that would make it approx 6mm or 1/4 inch. Any thicker would probably look a bit excessive imho! Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Olivier and Hannes, I am still not convinced. That is a great enlargement. So good you can count the teeth on the gears between the brake handle and the bar with the cables coming from it. A separate bar to the handle is unnecessary. So my reasons for voting teeth are: You can see the gears The rod does not meet the handle There is a similar rod for the front brake cable where it would appear to be unnecessary if its purpose is part of the handbrake. Drawing 2 suggests this is the mechanism So does the model. I think this is right but I am still confused. The brake mechanism on drawing 2 seems to show that the pedal operates via some sort of servo. The servo operates the "star" bars through a tube or rod. All straightforward. I think Roy did a drawing of the brakes many moons ago but I could not find it. The wierd bit is that the "star" bar on the handbrake side must move the handle when the brake is applied. Some sort of clutch would be better so the handle does not move but it looks simpler than that. It looks like the handbrake leaver should move when the footbrake is applied. A locking mechanism also seems to be missing. Surely the brake did not just stay on due to the weight of the handle. Who knows. One final question. What are the "star" handles for? There is one for each brake cable on each side of the car. It does not appear to be a brake tensioner. I think thats what the rods and adjusters are for. The "stars" are so big that they must have been used routinely. Could they just have been for brake balance by moving the cable near or further away from the centre pivot. If so how did they make sure all 4 wheels were correctly adjusted. It was clever but I have no idea what it was for! Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 On 20/04/2017 at 00:23, Roy vd M. said: - The blue arrows represent the direction of forces if the brake pedal was applied. - The red lines are the brake linkage from brake pedal to the metal piece that connected to the brake cables. - The green lines are the brake cables plus the part that held them. 1. This is the brake pedal. 2. This wheel was at the bottom of the brake pedal. It had a cam that was, through a rod, connected to: 3. A booster wheel. It rotated as it was pulled forward by the rod coming from 2. 4. Another rod. If the brake pedal was applied, the cam on wheel 5 was pulled. 5. This is the metallic part to which the brake cables and brake configuration system were connected. If the brake was applied this part would rotate. 6. This is a cam that was connected to the metallic part I just described. The cam was pulled up upon applying the brake pedal. 7. The rear brake cable was pulled toward the front of the car. 8. The front brake cable was pulled toward the rear of the car. Hope this makes sense. Chaps, this is Roys orignal post for how the brakes work. Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) The kit´s solution shows rod 4 directly connected with cross-rod 5 . It does make no sense at all imho . How should the rotation of the booster wheel get transfered to the cross-beam if there´s no lever-arm ? Regarding the gears , yes there can be seen tiny teeth on drawing 2 . If this should really be the case it would make no difference if Bordino operated the foot pedal or the handbrake in my opinion . Maybe he used both at the same time sometimes. There´s not much rotation of cross-rod 5 if the brakes are operated as we can see on photo 3 with the handbrake pushed forewards . Many greetings ! Hannes Edited June 19, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) First of all, thank you very much for these very good observations, Nick. I had not seen up to now the teeth on D2 because I looked on a not very good version. The best resolution for this doc are A and C on p.1. And indeed, an enlargement top and lateral view, suggests strongly the presence of a gear between 29B and 141D. Personally, I will represent it as I see it, but I will represent too the cable on top. Is it connected to the handbrake, as Hannes thinks? you say no, I say I don't know, but here too, I will represent what I see, the cable going frontally up to 29B and then disappearing behind it (I will glue the cable inside 29B). Thank you too for having found Roy's excellent drawing of 20/04 (not so old, finally). The top view shows also the angle that the rods of the stars do, very opened (we can see that on photos but not so clearly) while this angle is O° in the parts 143D of the kit. Edited June 20, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) The answer of the enigma about the connection or not of the cable n°2 (top right) to the handbrake is maybe to find on the cable n°3 (low left). This last one stops a few cms after its birth and seems to be unuseful. Imho, it is the same with n°2, but because it stops behind the handbrake, Hannes could think there was a connection between both, and the example of the Bentley, with a cable connection like that, was going in that way. In my opinion, these short cables are not unuseful, they are parts of the tensioning system, like we can see on bicycles brakes (photo 2). In other words, the cable n°3 would be in fact the continuation of n°4, and n°2 would be the continuation of n°1. That's why, finally, I will not cement this cable to the handbrake, it will remain free on its front part, stopping behind the handbrake 29B. Anyway, this suggests one more time how we all need each other to resolve such difficult questions. If Nick had not expressed his doubts, we would have been wrong imho... Edited June 20, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) I made a little drawing to show what I mean: there would be slots, channels inside 141D, in which would run the cables, allowing to adjust the tension: and coincidentally, the cable n°2 would stop just behind the handbrake, misleading us... In the Bentley, the system is different, there is no gear and the connection is assumed by the cable, indeed. But it's another car... N.B: I did not represent the gear and the handbrake to avoid burdening the drawing. P.S: the choice of 0,5 mm for the tube in which runs the breaking cables is consistent for me, as I will use the 0,38 mm braided wire in portions where the cable is exposed, in this case in the front part, going to 139D. Now what color was these metal tubes (I would avoid to call them "cables"), body color like the Bentley, black as on the Mef, or metal like in the Delage? Edited June 20, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) Dear Olivier this time you convinced me ! It seems to be as you say : The short cable on the opposite side is the same cable and is used to adjust the tension by pulling it . The stars should tighten the tensioned cable imho . To prevent the cable from sliding trough the hole and to enable an easier pulling there are nipples on the short part of the cable ( secured by meggot-screws ? ) Still unclear for me is the function of the gears . Are the gears connected all the time or is there a free-wheeling mechanism ?If you push the handbrake into the forewards direction the central lever should rotate into the backwards direction ! Many greetings ! Hannes Edited June 20, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Alone, we do what we can, but together, we are geniouses! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) I was mulling over the cable or wire over the chassis rail edge and the ( connected ? ) sheet with bolts before the handbrake . My theory goes as follows . There´s a small lever at the inside of the bodywork , strenghtened by this sheet . The wire connects this lever with some kind of petrol shut-off at the downside of the tank . It´s usual that these " fuel cocks " are near the carburetor but maybe there´s a different construction for our car . I gues it´s some kind of choke that regulates the flow of the gasoline .But it also could be a manual pump for transporting the gasoline to the carburetors before the roots blowers can do their sucking work . But - as I said above - it´s just a theory . Many greetings ! Hannes Edited June 20, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I cannot agree with most of what you are surmising about the braking system; your ideas make it far too complex. I invoke Ockham's Razor I've been around vintage cars for over 40 years I photographed them and wrote about them for 20 years I have owned and raced vintage cars for 17 years Never in all that time have I come across a brake hand lever which is pushed forward to make the brakes work In my club are several Fiat Ballilia racing cars, even they have the simplest of braking systems '' It´s usual that these " fuel cocks " are near the carburetor but maybe there´s a different construction for our car . '' No - it usual to have the fuel cock on or near [within 10cm of] the fuel tank. This was pretty standard in all racing cars [it was copied onto private cars] Thats where racing marshals have always been told to look for them for turning off when there was an accident 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Agreed , agreed dear Fred I just wrote that if the lever and the stick are connected by gears the lever would rotate in the no-brake direction when pushed forewards .We can see gear teeth on drawing 2 . Of course this also means the brake will get activated when pulled into the driver´s direction . My wrong assumption regarding the fuel cock´s situation is founded in my experience with vintage motorcycles A MB 190 SL from the 50´s was the oldest 4-wheel vehicle I´ve been driving in my life . Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Chaps, Glad to see we reached consensus in the end, and not at all because my view prevailed. We will never know some things for sure. This journey for me is about the detective work. What can be known? Have we found it all yet - I don't think so. Ultimately I want the right answer, it does not have to be my answer, but it has to be the logical consequence derived from the evidence. Sometimes two solutions may have similar weights. In those cases we will never know for sure and personal preference rules. If we don't follow this path we will be no better than the fantasists that drew Drawing 1 and built the master model. On a different tack. The wire at the bottom of the body by the frame looks like a stiffener like the wire edge round the cowling. It does not look to me that it connects to anything else. ATB Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) Dear Nick , maybe we can find out more regarding drawing 1 . As I said before I believe that´s an early plan of our car and Massimino kept it . It´s the same draughtsman style like the drawings of the 803 , 804 and 805 racing cars This drawing was the blueprint for the master-model in my opinion and maybe Michele Conti built it . There´s a collector with the name Oliver Strebel - Ritter in Twickenham UK , who wrote a book about the Conti family . Maybe you could get in contact with him and maybe he knows more .The contact no is on page 119 of this thread . I already asked Sam but he seems to be too busy. Many greetings ! Hannes Edited June 20, 2017 by Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) I am still not very sure of the best solution to represent the "cable" or "wire" or "tube" (the kit offers a very thick spring, 1,42 mm!). The 0,38 mm braided wire could finally be my choice. Very esthetic and natural, it would be definitely the best solution on the Delage. On the Mef, we can see it wouldn't, the wire was probably running into tubes, and it is these tubes that we can see on the photos. For this car, the 0,5 mm steel rod would be a good solution. Maybe I will ask Sebastien Faures opinion on that question, but of course, I am waiting for the point of view of much more competent people than me we have on this thread. The best documents imho to decide are probably the photos 2 and 9. On these ones, an accurate look at the front cable (from 141D to the front wheel) shows that, despite the tension, the "cable" is not 100% straight, which would make think to a wire more than to a tube (hope that makes sense...) Edited June 21, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Furthermore, I will not use the parts 2G and 3G of the step 26, as they had been removed for the race, to enhance the engine cooling (let's recall that, during the trials in august, the engine broke and another had to be made in a hurry, a bit less powerful and turning a bit slower). The document where we can clearly see that these parts were missing is the photo 9 lightened. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) Dear Olivier , I´m almost sure that these parts were not removed for the race !They are hard to see because they are placed back and are hidden in the shadow of the exhaust pipes but they exist imho . I had a discussion with Nick a long time ago regarding this topic . There are overlays of these parts over the quadrangular rear engine suspension parts imho. It would look different imho if 2G and 3 G would not exist.( look at photo 9 for instance ) Many greetings ! Hannes Edited June 21, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) Dear Hannes, I did not remember that discussion with Nick, but this comparison of enlargements (photo 2 and photo 9) shows imho the same empty space in front than back the support of the steering arm. I suppose we would see louvres (as on photo 2) if this part was on... And what would be this round part that we can see just behind the wheel, in the empty space?? I am not sure, but it is maybe the bulge on 103C (step 12), it corresponds exactly to that place when I put my engine... Edited June 21, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) Furthermore, I began to work on the handbrake. I will use the 29B part, but it must be modified (what a surprise!). Too thick, the rod has been clearly thinned, it is now less than 0,9 mm thick. The "button" is shorter and must be rounded (I could even maybe use one of the steel balls I should get soon, ordered on ebay. The bulge supposed to receive the screw (I won't use the screw) has been removed. The angles the rod makes to avoid the exhaust pipe must be increased a bit, just by bending. But the biggest modif is yet to do and concerns the lowest part, that is completely wrong. More soon... Edited June 21, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) Dear Olivier , on your left photo 2 we can see this part with louvres covering even the triangular part of the engine suspension . This means it´s partial situated before the suspension . You can see the same shape seen from a slightly different angle on your photo 9 enlargement . Two louvres also can be seen very hardly but at their correct places I can´t explain this round stain, maybe a reflexion or dirt but a part of the engine in the shadow should look different . Hannes Edited June 21, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Dear Hannes, I admit I am not really convinced, but anyway, it doesn't matter so much. As you know, I want to show the engine, so I will not place the bonnets. I know it is a bit curious a few minutes before the race, but they had so many problems with the engine (through others), and anyway, I assume this little incoherence. It would be a pity, after having spent so much time on it, to hide it... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I´m currently about to alter my chassis rails by replacing the frontal regions by brass parts . As we can see on top-view of drawing 2 the kit´s rails show a wrong shape . In reality there´s a somewhat abrupt change of direction where the radiator case is situated . I tried to bend the kit´s rails but I could not achieve a convincing solution . That´s why I made two sections and now it´s time for drilling , filing and sanding .I´ll show some pics when finished . It´s very hot right now and I guess it´s even hotter in South France ,dear Olivier ! But we will stay cool ! Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: Chaps, It's even hot in the UK - the hottest june day for 34 years. Quote Olivier, that's a great spot. It looks to me like the panel is missing. I understand Hannes' comment about the ghost of the louvres. But I am not convinced. Your comments above about the shape of the mount been complete in the Righthand picture. Near the black hole in the chassis frame, tehre is a fixture that also seems more visible on the right than the left. The circular shape looks compelling too. Unfortunately this is our only shot from the right angle. It is also the only one that shows the exhaust headers - and it is not even a good photo. I have also only just realised, that on the engine cross-section drawing with all the gears there appears a good cross section of not only the engine mount tubes and the chassis cross-members. That's going to be very useful. Surely I'm not the first to spot it. ATB Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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