Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Totally Mad Olivier]

11 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Well observed, dear Hannes, and there seems to have a little button (or bolt?) on the low part of the cap, like on D2... This would contradict the hinge version of the "master model", at least on this side. I have on the other hand added nuts and bolts on the other side (the low one). More soon, I have to go to (pro) work now...

 

 

I quote myself to come back on the question of the rear support of the front leaf spring (32B in the kit). This photo shows a "pear shape" of the support fixed on the frame, then a straight portion (in which the leaf spring comes) and finally the cap. We must modify the part 32B to get this "pear look". The other important point concerns the color: I had applied red on all the set 32B/ 136 and 137D, but the photo 21 shows this set is much more light than the body, very probably metal. I will modify that too. Thanks again Hannes for your eagles eyes, I had not noticed this set on the photo 21, while it is the only one usable for that area.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Oliver , photo 12 from the documentary also shows this region . I´m sure there are technical possibilities for improving the film ! But I don´t know how much it costs and who can do it .

The police uses this technique for improving pics of surveillance cameras .If we had the excerpts where only our car can be seen in an improved slo-mo-version and every single pic could get stopped ( like the Zapruder film of the Kennedy assasination )

it would be a great help .

Maybe someone who reads this text knows more . And maybe Luce is interested to do so . If it´s not too expensive , we could share the bill .

As we all know , you had the greatest  success when writing a friendly letter .If we appeal to the Italian national pride , Luce might change it´s mind .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited June 15, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

8 hours ago, Hannes said:

Dear Oliver , photo 12 from the documentary also shows this region . I´m sure there are technical possibilities for improving the film ! But I don´t know how much it costs and who can do it .

The police uses this technique for improving pics of surveillance cameras .If we had the excerpts where only our car can be seen in an improved slo-mo-version and every single pic could get stopped ( like the Zapruder film of the Kennedy assasination )

it would be a great help .

Maybe someone who reads this text knows more . And maybe Luce is interested to do so . If it´s not too expensive , we could share the bill .

As we all know , you had the greatest  success when writing a friendly letter .If we appeal to the Italian national pride , Luce might change it´s mind .

Many greetings !  Hannes

 

Dear Hannes,

you are right, photo 12 also shows that area!

About your idea, I agree with it and I am gonna try to contact Luce, as I did with the Centro Storico (I phoned them, not written...) and if they are O.K to sell an HR version, I will tell you about that.

Here is the mail I have just sent to them:

 

"Buongiorno,

Mi presento, Olivier Pansieri, dentista e modellista in Francia. Con un gruppo di modellisti che vengono da tutta l'Europa, siamo lavorando sulla Fiat 806 1500 cc Corsa che ha vinto il G.P Milano in 1927. Sono stato personalmente a Torino per vedere il Centro Storico della Fiat e studiare le lore archivie. Il mio modello sarà finito nessuno (sono lavorando sù da 10 mesi). Un modelista dal nostro gruppo, Roy ha gia stato in contatto con il vostro istituto, e cosi, abbiamo potuto vedere la video della corsa di 1927 e la Fiat 806, cio che erava molto interessante. Magari, la qualità di questa video è bassa, e vogliamo sapere se esiste una versione alta risoluzione, e quale sarebbe il prezzo di questa versione, per consultazione solo e non per pubblicazione. Si interessiamo sopra tutto alle sequenze dove si vede la 806.
Se si vuole vedere il nostro forum (in inglese), ecco il suo nome: "Fiat 806 research and scratchbuild » su Britmodeller.
Nell’attesa della vostra risposta, vi prego di gradire l'espressione dei miei sentimenti distinti."
 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The "pear shape" (or "breast shape", more precisely) of photo 21 will be given in my case by... the bottom of a 1/48P 47 Thunderbolt bomb, but you can find your own solution:

 

 

P.S: Wear a good protection mask when you cut the plastic with a disc, the vapors aren't good for your health...

Edited June 16, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , fingers crossed your friendly letter will work !  I guess this film was made for the cinema at that time and should have a better quality ! It´s a great  historical document  .

I wonder why Fiat does not care about it´s heritage . As  we all know , Ferrari is able to win races again  and it could be a great advertisement for Fiat to publish these kind of documents .

Maybe the Agnelli family does not like the history , but grandson Agnelli bought the Mef and spent money for the Centro Storico so there´s no need to be ashamed about the ancestor´s " crime "

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited June 16, 2017 by Hannes

[Black Knight]

Grease nipples; photos as promised a few days ago.

These are on a 1936 Austin 7 racing car.

They are of the common type of grease nipple in use from the mid 19th century to just recently.

There is another type which is rarely used on locations such as these. The other type is a simple tube fitting with a screw on cap, both usually of brass.

 

1. Top grease nipple on the H shackle which holds the end of the front transverse leaf spring to the chassis. There is a g/n on the lower end on the rear

 

2. On the upper part of the front stub axle king-pin. This and #3 are angled for easy access for the application of the greasing gun.

 

3. On where the steering drop link arm joins the front stub axle. Although the drop arm is fixed fore-to-aft, it must rotate a bit in accordance with the up/down movement of the spring; this one also serves the top of the stub axle king-pin

 

4. NOT a g/n - this is a bleed nut for the rear brake [left side] hydraulic fluid; just to compare how it looks similar to a grease nipple

[Hannes]

Dear Fred , many thanks for showing us the grease nipples ! I guess it´s nipple time because Olivier compared the shape of the  suspension part for the leaf spring with a female breast - and he´s right !

In this case we can see a giant nipple !

Many greetings ! Hannes

[Hannes]

 

[Hannes]

I found another - mirrored - photo of the master-model in one of my books . This photo is the oldest so far  imho because we still can see the lever for the ignition on the steering wheel and the chromed parts don´t show stains .

Many greetings !   Hannes

Edited June 16, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

The lateral view of Drawing 2 brings another information on the "breast" support: its width. It is not a round breast but an oval one, narrower in width than in height:

 

 

 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , never trust in drawing 2 when looking at details  ! On the top-view of drawing 2  the width of this pear-breast is the same as the tube but on our photos it seems to be larger . I guess the tube was welded to the triangular part first and a reinforcement was created by welding or forging this thickening ring above and  around it .Maybe it was cast iron but I don´t believe so due stability reasons. But we can see the tube at the downside of the triangle , not in the center !

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited June 16, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

A little comparison:

- it is very curious, it seems that the front part of the leaf spring doesn't come in the bottom of the front rod. It seems to be just under... I know it is an optical illusion, of course, and the other docs confirm so...

- the cap 136D is oversized

- the the front axle 4A is too thin

 

maybe you'll see other things...

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

In my opinion there are  grease nipples left and right of the leaf springs on the frontal cross-beam . Photo 9 shows these parts for instance.  I suppose these parts  also had the function as nuts !  Hannes

Edited June 16, 2017 by Hannes

[Hannes]

Some serious problems are now coming up for my construction . It´s about the engine-gearbox unit in relation with the chassis

There are many advantages regarding my chosen scale of 1 . 10,9 ( wheelbase 22 cm )

One of the few disadvantages is the size of this unit in exact 1 . 12 

To get the gearbox to it´s correct situation  I will be forced to cheat by adding two plates between the gearbox and the crankshaft case .This measure  also enables a realistic location for the exhaust pipes.

Another grave problem is the fixation of this unit to the chassis . The chassis-angle was altered by Olivier and by myself so a different mounting point on the crankshaft case is needed for the frontal suspensions  in order to get the unit into a horizontal situation. But that´s a minor problem.

The critical spots are the rear suspensions for the engine.There are triangular mounting parts on the kit´s rails and of course they are completely wrong .

In reality there have been quadrangular parts with odd angles and triangular reinforcement parts on these parts for holding a strong tube  of the " sandwiched " engine 

I must admit I´m a bit clueless how to transform the existing parts into  a convincing solution,because just adding a quadrangular sheet before this kit construction won´t work.

When adjusting the unit a lot of circumstances need to be considered .

1 ) The gearbox must be at the right place in both horizontal directions.

2 ) same goes for the engine regarding the location of the exhaust pipes.and the steering case´s situation as well

3 ) The engine should be no hindrance for closing the bonnets .

4 ) same goes for the strut construction below the engine.

Even if my scale is greater than 1 . 12 and therefore a bit more space for the engine exists , this will be a tight issue .

If I make mistakes it could cause very unpleasant consequences and therefore I will take my time to mull over these problems .

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited June 17, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I had to come-back on my step 23 after the infos brought by the photos 12 and above all 21 (noticed by Hannes) about the supports of front leaf springs, with their breast shape. I made other little improvements and now, I am gonna be able to go on with the step 25...

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Focus on 141 (and so 142...) and 143 D and around, from photos 28, 1, 2, 3, and 9, that will be useful to improve the kit's part, unless I decide to scratchbuild it. The part seems thick and the upper star 143D should be more frontal than the lower one (the contrary on the kit). Probably some other wrong things, I am gonna study that and wait for your own observations...

 

Other observations: the stars 143D are flat (we can see on the photos that they shouldn't), their rods are a bit too short imho.

Finally, I think I am gonna scratchbuild it, because all is bad: the nuts are much too big etc.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I have decided to use nevertheless the parts 141 and 142D, but it would have been probably quicker to 100% scratch, because all is bad. For the stars, I think it will be 100% scratch... 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , please don´t forget :The right-handed lever is connected with the handbrake by a very short wire .You could glue a short mini-brass tube to the backside of the handbrake for creating an adaption of this wire .

A watchmaker could possibly make scratch stars , I would not dare to do so .

I found a solution for my problems as described above and I will draw a scetch  regarding my plans.

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited June 18, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes,

could you make a little drawing to represent that relation between lever and handbrake, please? It is an area not very clear on our photos. The kit suggests there is a pinion between both, and I think this is right, but I don't see any wire. About the stars, I will try, I think I can do better than the kit's solution.

Happy to see you found a solution to your problems.

I have modified 138D (step 25), and used the braided wire I ordered from RB motion, inspiring myself on Robin excellent job to fix the wire to 139D. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , I´m very curious how you manage to create the stars . But there´s no doubt in my mind you will succeed because you are a master of detailling works !

This relation can clearly be seen on the first and third photos you showed above . It looks like an elongation of the sheet with bolts before the handbrake , but it´s a wire  imho.

To simulate that connection the lever is connected with the handbrake by gears in the kit´s solution and that´s pure nonsense .

This whole construction  should be a demonstation for every car enthusiast how a handbrake works ( that´s why springs are used instead of wires  )  Mamma mia !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Hannes,

sorry, I don't see this relation clearly on both first and third photo above... I am not a specialist (far from that) but I admit I thought there was indeed a gear as the kit suggests. If someone may bring the light on this question (is there still someone following us??), it would be great.

I must say I am not sure I will continue posting on this thread. Happily, Hannes and Harvey are here, but except them, I feel very lonely and it takes me a lot of time to contribute as I do, with photos, labels, translations etc. I could spend all this time to build my kit and go faster. I ever said that several times, but I deeply regret the time when all a (dream) team was fascinated by this subject. 

I blame nobody, of course, myself I don't have the time (this precious time...) to go and look at other threads. It is so, but I just regret that so few showed constancy, while they seemed so motivated before.

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hannes, for the stars, I begin to use 2 mm round alu tube (ref. AT2M from Albion Alloys) because in the kit part, there is no hole in the middle of the tube. I cut 4 sections of 2,5 mm lenght tube. Then, I cut 4 sections/ star of 0,7 mm steel rod, that will be glued on the round central tube. The little balls at the bottom are made of flow LC resin, but I could have used the ones of the kit. It is not over, of course...

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Not completely happy with this try for the stars, even if it is ever much better than what the kit offers. I will use 0,6 instead of 0,7 mm rod, and my rods will be a bit shorter (3 mm). The central hole of 141 and 142D, that needed to be widened, is now a bit too large, I will reduce it a bit (1,8 mm should be very good)...

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , your stars look great and it´s a very good idea how  you did this . Regarding the handbrake : Maybe Fred knows more but if there were gears the  handbrake would need an arrest and a free-wheeling function .

I also don´t know why the enthusiasm seems to vanish and why eager members like Robin don´t post anymore . I´m aware it´s not an easy task to tranform this wrong kit into a realistic model but it´s a challenge and we do our best to show possible solutions. It´s summertime and  a lot of members are on vacancies perhaps or have to do a lot of pro work.

Pioneers sometimes are lonely people !

Regarding the short wire : See this sheet before the handbrake ? If you elongate it´s upper edge behind the handbrake you will see where this short wire or - most likely -a short rods situated imho   I´ll try to draw a small scetch .

Many greetings !   Hannes

Edited June 18, 2017 by Hannes

[Hannes]