Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello guys,

It is 2:25 a.m here (I am now at Fort Lauderdale, between Miami and Palm Beach) and, while I was sleeping, I thought: 

we know that the 15 number does not seem to have been painted directly on the bonnets, as they hide the louvres. So there would be a kind of tissue with the number on it. But we don't see the limit of this tissue. Is it limited to the two digits? if it is, how did they maintain them so well fitted? and my assumption (it is just an assumption and it is probably stupid but...) is that, if the tissue covers all the bonnet transparently with only the digits opaques, this would explain:

1- that we don't see the limit of the tissue around the number 15

2- that, with the rain, we get a shadow of the louvres that changes completely their look on this photo 4, making them seem much wider on top view, while they are only rear opened. This would explain that they look like that only on this photo 4. I admit all that is a bit mad, but I can't imagine the louvres would look the same if a same angle view photo had been taken on other photos, especially the ones without the digits.

Beyond this a little bit far-fetched hypothesis, is asked the question of how they succeeded to get a so well applied these digits (if they were not hiding the louvres, they would really look painted (look at the contrast they do with the body). At this time, I still wonder how I will reproduce that on my build...

 

As I went to the bathroom to write these stupidities (always coming to me in the night) to avoid waking up my wife and my son (I am sitting on the toilets, not very comfortable... ), I read Roy's finding about the tyres. It's a great finding, that no one of us saw before in these infos we got. Bravo Roy!

I must say that for me, it is not a good new, because it means my wheels won't be totally right, as they have the same size front and rear, but at least we know the truth. Now, at 1/12 scale, what do these infos give? Are my VT tyres and my rims (the kit's one) far from that? I suppose not really, because, each time I compared them with the ones on the photos, they seemed to me well dimensioned. Can you confirm that, please?

Today, before going to Orlando's parcs, maybe we will go visiting the Packard antique museum at Fort Lauderdale (waiting for Torino Fiat museum...). If we do, I will post 1 or 2 memory photo here... the cars in this museum are 1900 to 1940 cars.

All the best to all the dream crazy team, I look forward to read your comments about my questions...

Olivier

 

P.S:

- on the photo 4, the third car, with the number 12, had obviously a thick tissue with obvious limits...

- CC said the pic was poor, I would rather say it is not so bad, despite the distorsion (5, 6, 11, 13 etc. IMHO are poor), see how the people around Bordino are quite neat. This means for me that the quality photo, even not very good, can't explain this perception I have regarding the very large louvres on top view, while they would be rear opened... 

 

I leave you to go back sleeping, it is now 3:18 a.m...

Edited December 27, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[NickD]

To show the sorts of effects we are trying to sort out, I drew the following very simple picture of the wheels. I modelled them as rectagular blocks - bear with me.

So the white rectangle is the front "wheel" rim  and tyre (the two black blocks) using the dimensions from Roy's post yesterday. It is rotated 5 deg. We don't know that is the right amount but it illustrates the sort of thing we will see. The red rectangle is the rear "wheel" rim and tyre. The red square behind the labels that goes through the front wheel is an extension of the rear rim to show where it cuts through the front wheel.

 

Clearly I have made no attempt to show the correct wheelbase.

The different tyre height plus the rotation gives some strange effects.  The difference is big at the bottom and small at the top - I thought it would be the other way round

 

Looking from the front

 

Easier to see what is going on with the top of the tyre. The tyre height is also more obvious.

 

Now the real weird view. I generated a perspective view. I did not change the default blender camera model I just moved the viewport to give approximately the geometry of photo2. It is obviously miles off reality but shows strongly how misleading the photos can be  without care.

 

 

The combination of lateral and vertical offsets can create a number of effects. At the bottom, in this view, they are plausible. At the top they are plain wrong. It's also not obvious that the tyres are different heights.

 

The blender file is here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/154sq7t0zh0qiyc/wheel parallax model.blend?dl=0

[NickD]

Olivier, get some sleep! We'll have it all sorted by the time you get back -

[sharknose156]

Dear Olivier, @Olivier de St Raph

 

Black Knight @Black Knight will explain better than me, the numbers were not painted but a cloth is applied on the body. ( here too, one for each number )

There was no transparent textile then. 

 

Louvres questions :

IMHO the answer is very simple: the louvres seem funny because due to the overheating of the engine on the qualy day, they enlarged them with their hand tools, and there was no more proper direction for the louvres. This is my attempt at trying to match what i see on the pictures, what i read about the two days and some logic. Of course i may be wrong as much as i may be right. This is how i intend to represent my 806, with slightly distorted louvres.

 

Enjoy Florida! If you go near Boca Raton chances are you will see some nice old timers ( i don't just mean people )

Edited December 27, 2016 by sharknose156

[Hannes]

Dear Sam , It´s hard for me to believe ,that cloth was used for the numbers  It´s like the grave-cloth of Torino , it´s impossible to show a 2D face if a real head would have been wrapped in.

Take a cloth , smear some paint on your face and cover your face with the cloth ! You will see , what I mean ! If the surface is not flat ,there will always be distortions,

Of course I followed the discussion about this topic ,but I did not make any comments ,because I was not sure.( Maybe the cloth was cut in shape after been fixed to the surface)

I also don´t believe ,that those numbers were edited by the racing management , because the different styles of the numbers .  Viele Grüsse !  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

Note to all: it is recommended to take some time to carefully read through all of this post, because it contains quite a lot of (more or less) new information. Please try to avoid thinking 'oh it's a long post, so let's not read it'  

 

 

 

 

 Literature Excerpt 1

 

 

  

 

Translation (although everything is worthy of a read the most interesting new things are highlighted in red... although Google and I did our best to translate the Italian texts some mistakes may still be present... a lot of things had to be changed from the Google Translate results and I had to trust my knowledge of other languages' grammar systems)

Although over the years the technical racing cars department had lost the collaboration of designers of the calibre of Vincenzo Bertanione, Vittorio Jano and Giulio Cesare Cappa, the design capacity remained miraculously intact, thanks above all to Tranquillo Zerbi and the shrewd direction of Carlo Cavalli. The remaining group survived the crisis of motivation that was certainly induced by the withdrawal from the race, decided in the summer of 1924 after the defeat of Lyon. As soon as the veto that had been in force for almost three years was broken, the last real race car from the Fiat was conceived.

 

It was an expensive and extraordinarily complex construction, the quality of which did not avail to prevent top management from withdrawing it from official participation at the races. In fact, the 806/406 itself, probably prepared in a single copy, and missing the real Grands Prix of 1928, in which dominated the Delage of Robert Benoist, performed only in a brief appearance at the Milan Grand Prix, a race that was invented ad hoc by the Monza race organizers who wanted Fiat present on the track, resiling political pressures. Then it returned to Turin and was destroyed along with all the material related to the competition.

 

- Model: type 806 (car 504)

- Year of construction: 1927

- Engine type: 406

- Cylinders: 12 in two parallel blocks of 6, vertically placed

- Diameter of piston: 50mm.

- Stroke of piston: 63mm.

- Total displacement: 1.484 cm3

- Compression ratio: 7,25 or 7,5 atmosphere

- Maximum horsepower: 187HP at 8.500 RPM

- Carburetors: Memini

- Arrangement of valves: head, tilted

- Control of valves: three camshafts, overhead

- Ignition: with two magneto’s of high tension, Bosch

- Lubrication of the engine: forced with two gear pumps

- Clutch: multiple disks

- Gear box: four-speed and reverse

- Transmission: shaft drive

- Bevel coupling: 10/49

- Pedal brake: drum brakes on the four wheels, with brake booster

- Hand brake: drum brakes on the rear wheels

- Wheelbase: 2.400mm.

- Track gauge: 1.300mm.

- Wheels: Rudge Whitworth with spoked wheels

- Tyres: 19” x 4,5” front, 29” x 5” rear.

 

 

 

Literature Excerpt 2

 

 

The images, previously posted by Olivier, were resized for better readability.

 

Translation

After a long pause in which only the 501 and 509 in their various sports editions had been active in the race, privately or semi-official form, Fiat made a final appearance in the area of Grand Prix cars, setting up a car with an unusual structure, very low (engine and gearbox were like lowered between the frame side members) and with the minimum unit displacement, it is clear that Giulio Cesare Cappa had a great influence on the design. The engine had twelve cylinders aligned in two rows of six and was equipped with three camshafts.

 

[regarding Photo 2:] Among the unusual details of the 806: the rear leaf spring anchored to a bracket positioned higher than the car's frame, and the exhaust pipe with a rectangular section.

[regarding Photo 3:] View from behind, the 806 shows other unusual details; among them a steering wheel that's no longer circular and a seal screen of the finest wire, through which one could read on-board instruments

[regarding Engine Drawings 4 and 5] The engine 406, with its twelve cylinders in two parallel banks and its three camshafts in the head (of which the central camshaft controls the two (inner row) inlet valves) is certainly the most unusual construction and most acrobatic of all Fiat engines.

 

- Model: Type 806 (car 504)

- Year of build: 1927

- Type of engine: 406

- Cylinders: 12 in two parallel groups of 6, vertically placed

- Diameter of piston: 50mm.

- Stroke of piston: 63mm.

- Total displacement: 1.484 cm3

- Compression ratio: -

- Maximum horsepower: 187HP at 8.500 RPM

- Feed: Roots compressor system

- Carburetors: Memini

- Arrangement of valves: head, tilted

- Control of valves: three camshafts, overhead

- Ignition: with two magneto’s

- Lubrication of the engine: forced with two gear pumps

- Clutch: multiple disks in oil

- Gear box: four-speed and reverse

- Transmission: shaft drive

- Bevel coupling: -

- Pedal brake: drum brakes on the four wheels, with brake booster

- Hand brake: drum brakes on the rear wheels

- Wheelbase: 2.400mm.

- Track gauge front: 1.300mm.

- Track gauge rear: 1.300mm.

- Wheels: Whitworth with spoked wheels

- Tyres: -

- Weight: 700kg.

- Maximum speed on a level road: 240 km/h

- List price: -

- Numbers of specimens produced: -

 

 

 

 Literature Excerpt 3

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most relevant in this article

- In July 1925, in the name of research the Fiat designers laid down a new Grand Prix design to meet the 1926-27 Formula which stipulated a 1500cc capacity limit, a minimum weight of 700kg and a minimum cockpit width of 31.5 inches [Roy: or does it say 31,25?]. 

- Bore and stroke were 50 x 63 mm, given 1484cc. 

- the cylinders were built up in blocks of two, welded in typical Fiat fashion. 

- One-piece connecting rods and Hirth-type built-up crankshafts were used, running in four broad plain bearings as a change from the roller bearings which Fiat themselves first popularized.

indeed the Fiat engine was a precursor of the high-revving, high-efficiency multi-cylinder unit as exemplified by Mercedes-Benz on their 1939 (...) W165 V8, (...), Alfa Romeo (...), BRM (...) and by more recent unblown engines. Even so, the 806's bold 8500rpm proved a mite precarious with the metals and fuels of 1927. 

- After a secret test run at the end of May around an old army parade ground in Turin, Bordino and Salamano extended the car at Monza in August. (...) unfortunately at the cost of a blown up engine. Another was built up at reduced boost, giving about 160bhp at 80000 rpm, but concentration on engine problems meant the rest of the car was hurriedly prepared. It was an extremely low-built car of rakish, efficient lines, with the chassis underslung at the rear, and a frontal area slightly less than that of the Delage or the Talbot. 

- The engine was set some 3 inches left of the chassis centre line to give the driver, sitting low on the right, a little more room. Even so, he was distinctly cramped, and to give him some more wind protection they extended the scuttle cowling and angled the aero screen. 

- A more serious problem was intense vibrations coming through the front wheels, particularly on the nearside, and hopes that the car could run in the GP of Europa (...) was asking too much of this still very experimental machine. (...) Two days before the race Bordino completely wrecked the one remaining engine during practice, and the Fiat experimental staff, already over-loaded with Schneider Trophy aero engine work, had to build up another 12-cylinder unit from spares. They completed it by 3am on race day, and by 9am the Fiat, wearing a hasty coat of Italian red paint, was ready to run. 

- There was talk of three cars running in the British GP at Brooklands a month later, but this would have taxed even Fiat's ability to work miracles, and nothing came of it. And there was talk that Senator Giovanni Agnelli, the Fiat chief who had been away in the 'States, was absolutely avid at the appearance of the 806 in a race without his consent, and had ordered the destruction of car, engine, every single spare part and alle drawings. There is evidence, however, that Agnelli knew full well what was going on in his experimental department, and that it was Managing Director Ing. Guido Fornace, a staunch believer in the technical value of racing, who had secured sanction for the building of the 806. Meanwhile the car languished beneath a dust sheet; the official edict was that the task of making it Grand-Prix worthy would take too many key men away from pressing production problems. A disappointed Cavelli retired at the end of 1927, and on January 14, 1928 Guido Fornace died. Not long afterwards the order came through to destroy all Fiat material, and the wonderful 806 prototype (...) was broken up. 

 

 

 

Analysis of Excerpts 1, 2 and 3

 

- Excerpt 1 is from the book 'Automobili Fiat' by Angelo Tito Anselmi, ISBN 8876720251. It is seen as the most accurate source of all things (classic) Fiat (see [url= https://www.amazon.com/Fiat-Automobile-Italian/dp/8876720251/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482813479&sr=8-1&keywords=8876720251]this short review[/url]. The review says: 

 

526 pages, 1,000 black & white illustrations, size 11" x 10". A spectacular two-volume set, covering the history and cars of Fiat. Over 1,000 illustrations and detailed text profile Fiat's first car in 1899 through the modern V8 Fiat-Dino cars. Includes a history of the Fiat Company, Fiat racing from 1900 through 1927, complete technical specifications for all cars, and a catalog of all road and racing models. We personally consider this the most complete reference ever printed on the racing history of Fiat and would thoroughly recommend it to anyone researching that era. Out-of-print and no longer available from the publisher. Italian text.

 

Therefore it should be seen, in principal, as a trustworthy source. Which does not mean that mistakes couldn't have been made. I'm not going to purchase this book as its lowest price online (as far as I've been able to find) is 150 euros. Hopefully we can get a better copy from Sebastien. 

 

- I do not know what book Excerpt 2 is from. 

- I do not know if Excerpt 1 influenced Excerpt 2, or vice versa, or neither. Perhaps both authors got all their info from Fiat directly. What's remarkable is that Excerpt 2 did not one-on-one copy Excerpt 1, nor did Excerpt 1 one-on-one copy Excerpt 2, although their listing is almost identical. Excerpt 1 exclusively mentions the compression ratio (7,25 or 7,5 atmosphere), the fact that the magneto's were made by Bosch, that the bevel coupling was 10/49 and that the tyres were 19” x 4,5” (front) and 29” x 5” (rear). Excerpt 2 exclusively mentions that there was a roots type compressor, that the clutch disks were dipped in oil and that both front and rear track gauges were 1.300mm. 

- I'm 99,9% sure that we don't see all of Excerpt 1's page, as Engine Drawing 4 is only partly seen and the technical list unexpectedly ends (probably the next item would be weight). 

- It is remarkable that Excerpt 2 features (resized) copies of the real blueprints, in their original blue appearance. 

- According to Excerpts 1 and 2 the Fiat used Memini carburetors. As you can see in the hereunder advertisements this company was based in Torino resp. Milano, which makes it likely that Fiat used their services. 

 

 

(Copyright http://www.mepiemont.net/stampe/manifes/stp_manif_4.html, educational and referential purposes only, picture will be deleted upon first request)

 

 

Has anyone spotted the carburators in the kit? Please tell me what part numbers they are, I can't seem to find it. Or maybe Protar left them out. They might look somewhat like this:

 

 

or this:

 

 

 

This last photo is from an Ebay advertisement that was unfortunately already removed. In the original advertisement text it said that this is a carburetor for the Fiat 501 race car. This supports the assumption that a similar carburetor (of the same brand) was used in other Fiat racing cars, such as the 806. 

 

It seems that Memino emphasized its race pedigree in all its advertisements:

 

 

 

- Excerpt 1 says that the magnetos were of the Bosch brand. A simple Google search reveals that in 1926 there was a company called 'American Bosch Magneto Corp.', probably affiliated to the currently existing company Bosch. 

 

 

These are examples of their Magnetos:

 

 

 

 

 

They do somewhat resemble the magnetos as seen in Italeri instructions drawing 14. 

 

Here another type:

 

 

 

Copyrights Prewarcars (see here and here and Tractorshed (see here) respectively, educational and referential purposes only, pictures will be deleted upon first request. 

 

Interestingly the 1927 Delago also used a Bosch magneto, see here. I think the best way to replicate the Fiat 806 magneto is to see what a Delage magneto looked like. 

 

- According to Excerpts 1 and 2 the wheels were of Rudge Whitworth. Excerpt 1 says the tyres were 19" x 4,5" front and 29" x 5" rear. I was curious about this and ordered the E-book "Rudge-Whitworth: the Complete Story", location 975/2994. In that book I read this:

 

"From early in the century Rudge wheels had been fitted to very many makes of racing car because they were so quickly detachable for tyre changes. An early success in 1924 was achieved in Italy, where Borrani Rudge Whitworth wheels were fitted to the Alfa Romeo Squadra Corsa racing cars that won the coppa Acerbo in Pescara and Ravenna. One of the team drivers was Enzo Ferrari. 

It seems to me, given the very specific info provided in Excerpt 2 (not only regarding the tyres), that there is a very good chance the tyre sizes 29" x 4,5" and 5" are correct. This means that both Nick and I were wrong in our conclusions. The most probable cause for that is image distortion (Nick's measurements) and faulty logic (my own measurements).

- The minimum cockpit width was 31,5 inches (or 31,25?). Drawing 2 does not disappoint here. At the widest point the body is 355 pixels, or 31,56 inches. This kind of stuff makes me happy. 

- According to Excerpt 3 the blocks containing the two rows of cylinders were welded together. If the weld line is seen in the model we can model it. Modeling weld lines is fun. 

- According to Excerpt 3 the engine was set some 3 inches left of the chassis centre. In Drawing 2 the distance is 23 pixels, which is approximately 2 inches. I'm not sure why there is this difference. Perhaps the author based itself on someone's estimate ('some 3 inches'). Based on Engine Drawings 4 and 5 the lateral engine position is correct as it is. Throwing in an extra inch would have really pushed the limits of the bonnet I think. 

- According to Excerpt 3, after the first tests the scuttle cowling was extended and the aero screen was angled. This supports my theory that the fairing lining was changed after Drawing 2 was made. 

- Excerpt 3 mentions that on the day of the race the car wore a hasty coat of Italian red paint. This remark confirms our assumption that the coat of paint was a last-minute job and it furthermore confirms that the color was 'Italian red'. 

 

In final

Some final remarks... because I felt this post wasn't lang enough already. 

- I found an interesting thread here. Do have a look, it isn't that long.

8 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

I must say that for me, it is not a good new, because it means my wheels won't be totally right, as they have the same size front and rear, but at least we know the truth.

 

- What I will do is try to turn the rims and tyres. It will probably take a hundred attempts because I never turned anything before. I expect my lathe to be delivered this week. If one of my attempts will be successful perhaps I could make copies*.

 

* In return for a full set of metal-formed thin body panels ha ha.

 

 

- As regards numbers on the bonnets, Fred had some interesting thoughts on that. In this post he says:

 

A note about the numbers; please remember my information is better about the TT racing.

The RAC Ards TT series started in 1927.

From that date the organisers supplied the numbers to be attached to the cars. Regulation sizes for each side, front and rear. To be stuck [glued or attached by some adhesive] to four points of the car.

Some race teams preferred to paint the numbers onto the radiator mesh, some put the supplied numbers on boards attached to one of the dumb-irons.

What the material was for the to-be-stuck-on numbers I do not know and I know my local expert doesn't know either.

 

@NickD The front camber I thought was approximately 15 degrees. But as we already saw a couple of times I can be wrong... at least the Bugatti at Louwman museum had a camber of 15 degrees. 

 

Very interesting experiment you did in Blender, I'm amazed!

 

7 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

Louvres questions :

IMHO the answer is very simple: the louvres seem funny because due to the overheating of the engine on the qualy day, they enlarged them with their hand tools, and there was no more proper direction for the louvres. This is my attempt at trying to match what i see on the pictures, what i read about the two days and some logic. Of course i may be wrong as much as i may be right. This is how i intend to represent my 806, with slightly distorted louvres.

 

In my view that would be the wrong conclusion indeed. I don't know if you read my analysis. Let me gave a summary along with some elaboration:

 

- Photos 1, 2 and 3 all show the same bonnet louvres. Let's for the sake of argument say they are angled 45 degrees, facing backward. 

- Photo 9 shows them in the same way. They are still angled 45 degrees, facing backward. But in some spots it seems (optical illusion) that they face forward. 

- Photo 7 also shows them in the same way as in 1, 2, 3 and 9. If there is any distortion, it for sure wasn't that radical in appearance.

- In Photo 4 the louvre opening should not be visible at all, as the camera position is very slightly toward the rear of the car. None of the louvre slits should be visible, unless the louvres were opened 90 degrees or more. That is obviously not the case (as seen in Photos 7 and 9, taken at the same day - most probably later that day). 

- What you see in Photo 4 is an optical illusion. You see shadows that look like louvre slits. I will explain that by means of this video I made:

 

 

At the beginning of the video you see the louvres (I didn't cut them open, because I'm lazy. Fortunately laziness pays off because I discovered an important factor this way). The light hits the louvres so everything is nicely lit. 

 

Then when I turn the louvres, to simulate the lighting/shadowing situation of Photo 4, something remarkable happens. The front louvre is covered in shadows, but the second and third louvres are not. Why? Because there is no light being reflected onto the first louvre. That's the principal difference with the second and third louvres. In the real bonnet there are of course the dark openings that also don't reflect any light to the louvre metal next to them. That's why there the strong shadows are visible in Photo 4. Here in schedule:

 

 

That having been said not all louvres on the Fiat are equally straight so, like you, I will not be too careful when making them. I'll try to decide which individual louvres were deformed / distorted / shorter / longer. 

 

5 hours ago, Hannes said:

I also don´t believe ,that those numbers were edited by the racing management , because the different styles of the numbers .

 

I don't think so either. I think they were hand-cut by a member of the Fiat racing team. 

 

 

Things to do:

 

1. Visit Centro Storico Fiat (after approval, hopefully January 2017). Roy.

2. Check with Fiat Powertrain Technologies regarding blueprints (reminder). Roy

3. Check with Cinecitta Luce regarding Photos 10 and 11 and possibly survived original film reel (reminder). Roy.

4. Check with Museum of Speed, Monza (reminder). Roy.

5. Try to get a flatter version of Photo 21 (Olivier could you follow this up, or could you tell me the contact that sent you?) Olivier.

6. Try to get a larger version of Photo 22 Olivier.

7. Ask if there is more to Literature Excerpt 1 (A. Tito Anselmi's book) which I'm almost 100% sure there is. Try to get the remainder Olivier.

8. Ask who is the author of Literature Excerpt 2 and if there were no more than two pages. If there is more, to try getting the remainder Olivier.

9. Please feel free to add to this list (=tell me) the loose ends you guys are waiting for. All.

[Roy vd M.]

In 1928 the Fiat 520 used a Memini carburetor... so before as well as after the 1927 race Fiat implemented these Memini carburetors in its cars. 

 

 

 

(from Ebay italy). 

[Black Knight]

56 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

7 hours ago, Hannes said:

I also don´t believe ,that those numbers were edited by the racing management , because the different styles of the numbers .

 

I don't think so either. I think they were hand-cut by a member of the Fiat racing team. 

 

Very possible.

In the Ards TT race series the numbers were supplied pre-cut by the race organisers. Each year the style and shape of the numbers is slightly different and this has helped us to identify which year a car was racing eg W.O. Bentleys raced several years, the same cars, same drivers, but maybe not the same driver in a certain car, but with the differently styled numbers we can identify which car, which driver, which year.

[Hannes]

Dear Roy , what an impressive elaboration ! I´m curious regarding the steering wheel´s screen . Does it mean , it was made out a fine fly-grating and a frame ?  Hannes

[Hannes]

The carburetors are situated at the right side of the Roots-blower´s case . Numbers 112 D  113 d  114 D  Hannes.

[harveyb258]

59 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

* In return for a full set of metal-formed thin body panels ha ha.

 

I'm receiving a nice lump of beech this next week.....it has 806 written all over it!

A bit of carving and panel-beating is just what the doctor ordered.....let's get the production-line going....it's gonna be fun!

 

 I want to try an make a jig for the bonnet louvres too, as the positioning and decreasing size in louvres will make it a veeerrrry arduous job to do, especially one-by-one...by hand............I shudder at the thought of milling all them louvres from an inside curve of a  lump of metal.....by hand , but it's definately well- worth having a go for this obsession of ours! Watch this space chaps!

 

Cheers, H

[NickD]

@Roy vd M. Wow. Impressive as always. Loved the louvres video, so simple so compelling. On wheel camber, I used an arbitrary 5 deg. Clearly missed the discussion on 15 deg - will have to go back and look. 5 deg did not look enough.

 

@harveyb258 - is my earlier post likely to be of interest for the cross-sections - though I have still not done the radiator yet.

 

Nick

[Roy vd M.]

Things to do list has two extra items (contacting the authors of Excerpt 1 and 2). 

 

1. Visit Centro Storico Fiat (after approval, hopefully January 2017). Roy.

2. Check with Fiat Powertrain Technologies regarding blueprints (reminder). Roy

3. Check with Cinecitta Luce regarding Photos 10 and 11 and possibly survived original film reel (reminder). Roy.

4. Check with Museum of Speed, Monza (reminder). Roy.

5. Try to get a flatter version of Photo 21 (Olivier could you follow this up, or could you tell me the contact that sent you?) Olivier.

6. Try to get a larger version of Photo 22 Olivier.

7. Ask if there is more to Literature Excerpt 1 (A. Tito Anselmi's book) which I'm almost 100% sure there is. Try to get the remainder Olivier.

8. Ask who is the author of Literature Excerpt 2 and if there were no more than two pages. If there is more, to try getting the remainder Olivier.

9. Contact author of Literature Excerpt 1, asking him about sources. Yet unknown.

10. Contact author of Literature Excerpt 2, asking him about his sources. Yet unknown.

11. Please feel free to add to this list (=tell me) the loose ends you guys are waiting for. All.

 

I will add this list to the opening post of the topic. 

 

1 hour ago, Hannes said:

Dear Roy , what an impressive elaboration ! I´m curious regarding the steering wheel´s screen . Does it mean , it was made out a fine fly-grating and a frame ?  Hannes

 

The original text: 

 

Lo schermo paraolio in finissima rate metallica

 

which translates into something like this:

 

"a screen to protect from oil, made of the finest metallic mesh"

 

1 hour ago, Hannes said:

The carburetors are situated at the right side of the Roots-blower´s case . Numbers 112 D  113 d  114 D  Hannes.

 

You're right, I thought that there was more than one carburetor but upon re-translating it seems that 'carburatore' means simply 'carburetor'. So there was 1 carburetor. I had trouble with the fact that there was only one (in the kit) but now it seems that problem is solved

 

1 hour ago, harveyb258 said:

 

I'm receiving a nice lump of beech this next week.....it has 806 written all over it!

 

My plan is to also try hammering the metal in shape. That would be a first for me.

 

1 hour ago, harveyb258 said:

 

 I want to try an make a jig for the bonnet louvres too

 

Same here!

[NickD]

3 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

The most probable cause for that is image distortion (Nick's measurements)

A lack of imagination too on my part!

[harveyb258]

9 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

My plan is to also try hammering the metal in shape. That would be a first for me.

 

There won't be much needed in the way of hammering to be honest, only the tail section and cockpit surround will need "persuading" into shape...so enjoy! Once you've done it, you'll be hooked...... I know, I was!

 

Cheers, H

[Hannes]

One carburetor also could mean one double-carburetor. Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Dear Sam,

I admit that my idea of transparent textile was a bit funny (not to say stupid), but when I look at these digits, I feel they really don't look as being made from tissue. Their sharp limits, with high contrast, the lack of any folds, and their very thin aspect just like a coat of paint, the lack of any fixing wires, all that makes me think it was not that (maybe I am wrong but I tell you how I feel it). More, with the speed, the clothe could move, taken the wind etc. In fact, I was wondering if they did not use a kind of magnet (like for actual badge that new learners must put on the rear car body, fe). This would be in coherence with all parameters, including the fact to hide frankly the louvres. Magnets did exist definitely at this time, but obviously, this is just an assumption.

Like you, I suppose the louvres were enlarged and so, were a bit distorted, but pity, it is difficult to confirm with the other race day  photos of the car. They really look more regular on photos 1, 2, 3 taken probably several weeks before the race day.

As I said above, the problems met with the engine pushed maybe (but we would like certainties) to open the louvres more...

Now, I 'd like you to ask you this: are you absolutely sure the digits were not painted?

I know, you will tell me that on photos 4 and 9, they hide the louvres. OK, and I 'd like Roy to confirm this on HR photo 9.

But on photo 7A, that is a very good one, they don't seem to hide them.

We all know that, with this car, things are never what they seem to. So, I ask the question....

I began to write this post this morning, and finished it this evening. 

We had not time to go to the museum, but I will try to go to Sarasota car museum later in my travel, if possible.

Now, I have just read today's posts, and in particular the excellent Roy's translation work, and the video explaining the optical illusion. Ok, I think we can say that these louvres were rear opened. Stop. But what about the digits?

 

Best regards

Olivier

 

P.S: time is missing now, but as soon as possible, I'll try to bring my contribution to Roy's askings. I can just tell you that photo 21 comes from Sebastien Faures. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Hannes]

Dear Olivier ,this is my personal opinion regarding the numbers on the bonnets : I believe , they were painted . Why ? Even it was a prescription at that time to use cloth numbers  in this case it would have been a great disadvantage regarding the competitors who could fix their numbers simply on the sidewalls of their cars.

Why should louvres get covered , if the engine had great problems with overheating ? If they were forced to use that cloth numbers , why did´nt the mechanics cut away the cloth from the louvre´s openings so we could see the slits ?

Don´t forget ,the race was in Italy and if the car´s engine would have exploded , the racing management could have been blamed for forcing Fiat to cover 10-20 per cent of their bonnet´s louvres.

In my opinion they were allowed to paint the numbers to avoid disadvantages. The slits can´t be seen due the bad quality of the photos imho.

Even with a pattern it would have been  difficult to cut cloth on a very fissured bonnet . That´s my opinion regarding this topic.  Many greetings to Florida !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

16 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

a seal screen of the finest wire, through which one could read on-board instruments

Excellent Roy, this confirms exactly what we thought. The precise translation would be:

" the oil protection screen made of a very fine metallic grid through..." which is still more clear.

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

16 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

It was an extremely low-built car of rakish, efficient lines, with the chassis underslung at the rear, and a frontal area slightly less than that of the Delage or the Talbot. 

Excellent too, Roy. This confirms what I said about the state of surface of the car. They focused on engine pbs and efficiency but not on esthetic considerations...

[Totally Mad Olivier]

16 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

The engine was set some 3 inches left of the chassis centre line to give the driver, sitting low on the right, a little more room. Even so, he was distinctly cramped, and to give him some more wind protection they extended the scuttle cowling and angled the aero screen. 

Very good too: so the reason why they set the engine left was for the pilot to get a little more room, while he was sitting very low on the right. 3 inches is 2,54 cm x 3 = 7,62 cm, which means at 1/12, 6,35 mm.

It will not be obvious for us to get that without enlarging the body at the bonnet level...

This value should be in accordance with the crank hole on the grille...

[Totally Mad Olivier]

16 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

they extended the scuttle cowling and angled the aero screen. 

What does the writer means by the "scuttle cowling "? Does it mean that they had to put more backward the pilot seat?

[harveyb258]

14 hours ago, NickD said:

- is my earlier post likely to be of interest for the cross-sections - though I have still not done the radiator yet.

 

Sorry for the late reply, Nick. In reply to your question...yes, any/all cross-sections will be helpful, especially for shaping the buck. One can never have too much reference material.

 

Cheers, H

[Totally Mad Olivier]

16 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

they extended the scuttle cowling and angled the aero screen. 

What does the writer means by the "scuttle cowling "? Does it mean that they had to put more backward the pilot seat?

[Totally Mad Olivier]

17 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

Two days before the race Bordino completely wrecked the one remaining engine during practice, and the Fiat experimental staff, already over-loaded with Schneider Trophy aero engine work, had to build up another 12-cylinder unit from spares. They completed it by 3am on race day, and by 9am the Fiat, wearing a hasty coat of Italian red paint, was ready to run. 

So, the engine broke another time? And just 2 days before the race? This is not in S. Faures book, who mentioned only 1 break.

If it is so, we can imagine the panic in the Fiat team... and the lack of care regarding the esthetic aspects ("a hasty coat of Italian red paint"). Now what was exactly this Italian red on this day ? Probably approximately the same than the Mefistofele one...?

In the lack of proof, I will keep my "cherry red", but it is a personal and subjective choice.

I read your posts on the PM conversation... Roy, be sure I will do my best to get an as accurate as possible reproduction with an as good as possible weathering !

The best reply, indeed!

Edited December 28, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
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