Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[CrazyCrank]

Dear Olivier, please, don't shrink the shrimp too much

[Roy vd M.]

6 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Thank you Roy for all that! 

Was it common to wrap like that the exhaust pipes? has it ever been seen on another car?

 

That was treated by Fred in this post. He says:

 

Exhausts; bandage, was an asbestos wrapping, about 2 inches wide, wrapped over the exhaust pipe. Available in white or black only. Not adhesive. Wrapped and held, if necessary, by thin wire wrapped around - like a cable tie.

A type is still available which we use - its compulsory to use it when the exhaust runs along the side of the car. Modern bandage does not have asbestos but modern heat proof material and fibreglass in it. Same method of wrapping and fixing.

 

6 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

On the purchasing, I am obviously very tempted but I have my own concern on 2 points:

1) I don't like the idea someone takes advantage of our interest to make money by just providing 1 photo by email, especially when I see the amount of fascinating infos, docs, photos you get reading Sebastien's book, very beautiful and in fact not much more expensive than this single photo. 

 

In my view you can't really compare that. It's their intellectual property, it's their source of income. They have already lowered their lowest price for us, because we have a hobby purpose only. I agree that it is still a lot of money for just one photo so it's not that I don't understand what you are saying but on the other hand I don't have the feeling I was ripped off, because they clearly have a great and very old, extremely rare source of visual information. It is one of only 12 photos known to have ever been taken of this car and in my view certainly not the least valuable. 

 

6 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

2) I don't know yet what kind of document I will publish, but if this photo is really so interesting, I will want to include it. What would be the price then? I don't know, but I can ask her.

 

Do ask her but I think it will not be cheap. 

 

5 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

I don't mind showing my mistakes, and all the quest to get the final result, because, for me, it is the reality of my build. I often regret that modelers just show their result (I don't say that for you), without explaining how they got it. That said, it is a fact that, if every modeler did the same than me, the thread would not be 41 pages but 150 at least!! 

 

That is exactly my philosophy. Who would have thought I'd ever fully agree with a Frenchman! (haha)

 

5 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Personally, I will have - with regrets - to leave my Fiat tomorrow for 10 days because of a holiday travel. Obviously, I take my Macbook with me and I will follow the thread from the USA where I will be with my family.

 

Have lots of fun over there! 

 

3 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

(...) I have no choice, if I want my build to reproduce quite accurately our car.

 

Remember when you did not want to go that far? The problem with this kind of thing is that if you start you can't stop (at least that's how it works for me and many others). But the result will be a very unique model. 

 

And in final I think the current status of your car looks the part! The low shape is really becoming obvious from your latest photos. 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

15 hours ago, Hannes said:

It´s very  interesting to imagine the body´s form without the fairing

Hannes,

what you said there is very interesting and made its way in my head....

In fact, the best way to reproduce this part of the car would be to cut the fairing at its real limit, to scratchmake the body in its continuity and to replace the fairing on it. 

I don't know if I will dive on this new madness, but it would be the best solution, definitely...

All the best

Edited December 22, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
Correction

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier regarding this arch: Yes,it´s  relating to the part of the bodywork under the fairing. It´s the left side that needs to get connected with the rest of the bodywork. As I can see,you already made an wider arch (seen from above) compared  with the kit. This arch needs to made still wider,so the  sheet meets the rest of the bodywork.

You are right there´s a different way to deal with pics and there are different styles of working too. Of course I won´t wait with showing pics till everything is completely right..But I want to show advanced stages. In our case it´s the fairing (that´s now completed with 95 per cent) and it´s surrounding ( about 70 per cent )  If this work is done(please don´t forget, I restarted with my own construction only a few days ago!) it will make sense imho to show this stage of development.

I hope,you understand my point of view! I´ve got nothing to hide and there´s no need to be ashamed  about my work but it´s important for me to show convincing solutions and this means for me to work as long till I´m satisfied with my work.

Photographing and photobucket and so on means always some effort for me,because I need my sister´s help for that (I only own one of these mini-PC´s) and I try to do my best to say by words what I want to describe.  Many greetings!  Hannes

[harveyb258]

Hi Olivier, your car is really taking shape now...keep it up mate, you're going to have a stunner when finished!

Will you be using some strengthening strips when you rejoin the 2 chassis halves together? I would hate it if something were to happen to this potentially weak area,further down the line!

 

Cheers, H

[Totally Mad Olivier]

1 hour ago, CrazyCrank said:

Dear Olivier, please, don't shrink the shrimp too much

!! I did not have time to translate. For the ones who don't undersatnd french, I compared my 806 with her long rails, to a shrimp, saying that I call her with affection "my shrimp"... (I begin to speak to my build, not a good sign! )

[Totally Mad Olivier]

1 hour ago, Roy vd M. said:

That was treated by Fred in this post. He says:

 

Exhausts; bandage, was an asbestos wrapping, about 2 inches wide, wrapped over the exhaust pipe. Available in white or black only. Not adhesive. Wrapped and held, if necessary, by thin wire wrapped around - like a cable tie.

A type is still available which we use - its compulsory to use it when the exhaust runs along the side of the car. Modern bandage does not have asbestos but modern heat proof material and fibreglass in it. Same method of wrapping and fixing.

Thanks Roy, I missed that. Very interesting...

[CrazyCrank]

3 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Thanks Roy, I missed that. Very interesting...

 

Do you remember, Olivier and all others, what I said: that IMHO, there was a wrapping bandage around the exhaust tubes ?

I would like to see this high-res picture n°9....

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

5 hours ago, Hannes said:

I hope,you understand my point of view! I´ve got nothing to hide and there´s no need to be ashamed  about my work but it´s important for me to show convincing solutions and this means for me to work as long till I´m satisfied with my work.

Of course I do Hannes. I never thought you had "something to hide", and I appreciate very much your contribution on this thread. I just said that I regret, while you are building the kit too (even not being as advanced as me), that you rarely post photos. But I know it is more complicated for you. And I know too that, like Roy, you are more careful than me. I have a more latin temper, and in the same time, I want to go on with my build (that ever goes on too slowly because of the amazing work to do and the lack of time). This temper played tricks on me sometimes, but it is my style of model making.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

6 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

In my view you can't really compare that. It's their intellectual property, it's their source of income. They have already lowered their lowest price for us, because we have a hobby purpose only. I agree that it is still a lot of money for just one photo so it's not that I don't understand what you are saying but on the other hand I don't have the feeling I was ripped off, because they clearly have a great and very old, extremely rare source of visual information. It is one of only 12 photos known to have ever been taken of this car and in my view certainly not the least valuable. 

Ok Roy, it's very clear. I will contact this person to have the info about publishing, just to know for now.

 

6 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

 

Have lots of fun over there!

Thanks!

 

6 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

Remember when you did not want to go that far? The problem with this kind of thing is that if you start you can't stop (at least that's how it works for me and many others). But the result will be a very unique model. 

 

Yes, I remember. But in fact, I was over all desappointed and a bit lost because I thought we could go on with the Gangshow, and I couldn't imagine writing sometimes on one (for OOB procédures) and on a new thread for scratchbuild ones. On this, I think I was right. But very quickly, the Gangshow was closed, and it was obvious that I would rejoin you on this "new" thread. I must say I never had to regret it !! Here, no bad spirit, only respect and frienship, we share and everyone brings what he may following his own skills. Love that!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

5 hours ago, harveyb258 said:

Will you be using some strengthening strips when you rejoin the 2 chassis halves together? I would hate it if something were to happen to this potentially weak area,further down the line!

Thank you so much Harvey, your encouragements are the best fuel for my build. Don't worry, I will indeed use strenghtening strips (inside, so not visible) and good cement!

[Totally Mad Olivier]

1 hour ago, CrazyCrank said:

I would like to see this high-res picture n°9....

Me too Thierry! I will send you a PM soon about that...

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier,You are working very carefully! Of course I also try to be very careful in the end,but in the meantime there´s a lot of dust by filing and sanding,sheets glue and filler don´t look very esthetical. But that´s how sculptors work! The final result is all that matters and the steps between  are only necessary stages,not more.  Many greetings!  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

P.S: I suppose it's the same thing for all of you, the Gangshow seems to me very very far, as if we were on this "new thread" from 6 months. So many things happened here in so few time!

Edited December 22, 2016 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[sharknose156]

Next week i will also contact them and purchase the photo. Thanks for having brought the price down.

i have no news from anybody i wrote including Pur Sang... pretty unbelievable... feel like am Tom Hanks on his island and sending email to a volleyball.

[Hannes]

Watson was the volleyball´s name Viele Grüsse!  Hannes

[harveyb258]

Hi guys! 

Regarding  the wrapped exhausts....I do not deny their existance, the more I look at photo 9, the more I [think?] I see, but , I'm sorry, I ain't paying that much for ONE picture!There's always some numpty trying to take your money! GRRRRR!

 

OkThat's it....rant's over!

 

Cheers, H

[Hannes]

Dear Harvey,don´t be angry! We will give you every new information.It´s sufficient if some of us have this photo.  Many greetings!  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

Ok let's try to get a bit more precise. Here the low resolution version:

 

 

- You can see the bandages already in this low resolution version, near the exhaust manifold and behind Bordino's right arm. On the HR version you can see (or it seems very much so) tape like this:

 

 

When zooming in a lot you can also see that the exhaust pipe top line isn't exactly straight but seems to have a bit of 'wobbles' in it. This indicates the presence of such bandages, although they cannot be clearly seen everywhere.

 

- As can be seen in the low res-version, between hand brake lever and heat shield there is an 'M'. I have no idea what that is. 

 

- The part of the car below the exhaust pipe seems to be very sand- and mud-dirty with rain marks in it. 

 

- The knob of the hand brake lever is white while the rest is a slightly darker color. 

 

- The brake lines + connection can be seen very well. 

 

- If I had to put my money on it I'd bet the rivets (or rivet holes) can be seen in this photo. You cannot see that in the low res version.

 

- Upon closer inspection there seem to be two dents in the chrome grille strip, right hand side.

 

- The height of the bonnet louvres can be established more accurately than before. 

 

- Each exhaust half consists of two parts: the exhaust manifold, which ends approximately where the bonnets end. This is already clear on Photos 1 and 2, but in Photo 9 it becomes a bit clearer how these were connected. The rear exhaust seems to have moved out of place a little, so that a (large) gap is seen. Something like this:

 

 

Compare this with Photo 2 where both exhaust parts sit tightly together. 

[Hannes]

One of the most important aspects of this photo is in my opinion the radiator case (even if it´s damaged ) and the frontal cross strut.We can see the case almost as a whole and the strut seems to be not painted. I wonder why.  Many greetings!  Hannes

[NickD]

I'm sure you all thought there was nothing more to say on wheels. Unfortunately I think there is.

 

My starting point was to understand why we thought the wheels were 21". Roy's analysis is plausible and logical as always but it did not adequately consider the perspective of the picture. @vontrips provided me some useful pointers - thanks for that, which let me reach the following conclusions. In passing I finally got my head round Inkscape, my new favourite app.

 

Not sure I believe the conclusions - and unfortunately they don't agree with our current assumptions, so I'd welcome people marking my homework.

 

I have used photo 2, photo 7 and the low res version of photo 9. I did not use photo 1 (because the rear wheel is distorted) or photo 3 (seemed a bit forshortened but may go back to it).

 

I made the following assumptions:

1. The bonnet hinge is aligned with the car's centreline. It appears to by from the pictures but it would not surprise me if it was offset given that the engine is. Even so it should still be parallel to the centreline and it is more or less horizontal from Drawing 2.
2. The outside edges of the tyres where they contact the ground, form a straight line that is parallel with the bonnet and horizontal. Strictly the instide edge does but the outside edge will be slight deflected by the compression of the front tyre. I assume this is negligible (say 10mm max in 2400mm)
3. The rear wheels are vertical.
4. There is no stretch or barrel distortion. Probably not true but not obvious how to correct it yet.
5. Wheel base is 2.4 m - our one reliable measure.
6. Tyre sidewall to rim ratio - 2*4.5 :21 - This seems to line up well with Blender and the other work we have done that leads to a 30" nominal diameter.

 

Assumptions 1 and 2 are necessary as they appear to be the only lines on the entire car that are horizontal and parallel with the car centre-line. From these I could calculate a vanishing point. See photo 2 below:

 

The VP is way off to the left and is formed from the top and bottom green lines. The corresponding line on the LH side also goes through the VP and encouragingly lines up the two wheel contact points

From the VP I constructed 2 additional green lines. One that goes through the top of the rear wheel rim and one through the bottom. That allowed me to construct a quadrillateral that was tangential to the rim and would be square in a proper true side view. Joining the corners gave the first Orange cross. I then copied and scaled the cross so that it formed a line XXXXX. I approximated the front wheel extent with the blue cross but it is drawn to the wrong perspective lines (because  the front wheels have camber). As an aside, the rear perspective lines do not align with the front wheels and nor should they because the wheels are not upright. The bottom perspective line is almost aligned. I have not confirmed why there is a mismatch but it could be expected to a bit lower than the rear due to tyre compression. It is further out a the top, which I would expect to be parallax.

 

From the picture approximate 5 X's span the distance from the rear wheels to the front wheels. (4+2*0.5). The right hand X centre seems to coincide with the front wheel centre. I think this is a fluke. Qualitatively I think it must be slightly more than 5X's. Again a slight loose end that might need attention.

 

I repeated the analysis with Photo 9

 

I got similar results but the size seemed to be more like 5.1 X's. This encouraged me to think I was on the right track.

 

Then did  photo 4

This is the most sideview shot and should be the most accurate. Disappointing that it is more like 4.75 X. May be a number of reasons - the others are wrong and this is right, or my VP is wrong because the ground line is too dark to be accurate. Steering angle might mess with the geometry, but it looks straight in the first and last pictures.

 

Converting the measurements to lengths gives

 

Photo2      18.9" rim diameter    4.05" tyre height   27" nominal

Photo7      18.53"                       3.97"                    26.47"

Photo9      19.78"                       4.24"                    28.26"

Average    19.07"                       4.09"                    27.24"

 

Or rounded 19"                          4"                         27"

 

What can we conclude? All photos appear to agree that 30" is too big.

 

27" looks the most likely but it could easily be 28 "

 

I have not worked out what it does to the photogrammetry I was doing in Blender, but my problem to now has been that tyres looked a bit large. So this might be why.

 

I will continue to check but if anyone can see a systematic flaw in the above please let me know.

Regards

Nick

 

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by NickD
Corrected the labels

[Roy vd M.]

Very interesting and quite convincing conclusions Nick, I'll study this more in detail later. Makes me wonder where I went wrong though... I'll describe my own measuring method more in detail and then we can see where I erred. 

[Hannes]

 

 

Dear friends!

 

It´s Christmas time...

Time to reflect...

Time to look back in history...

Time to tell a fairy tale...

 

Believe it or don´t!

 

Digging deep in the catacombs under Torino I found an hidden Fiat archive!

Guess,what I discovered: It´s a report about the successor of our 806 which was developed to win the 1929 championship.

 

As you can see,this car was highly advanced.The engine shows a 2-cylinder 28 litres construction and 16 Roots-blowers were required to suck the gasoline into it´s carburetor.

The camshaft was integrated in the crankshaft,a revolutionary invention indeed!

 

The legend about the car´s history goes as follows:

After Giovanni Agnelli destroyed our 806 racing car with a sledge-hammer he intended to do the same with it´s successor,hit the radiator case twice but ran out of power.

Cooling out he decided to hide the car in the depositary.Some years later he had an splendid idea: He named this car " Ducomobile" and gave it as a gift to Mussolini,so Benito could impress his friend Adolf at the next state visit in Rome.

 

On this picture we can see Mussolini incognito with a wrong mustache and a wig.

Unfortunately the car was very thirsty.

For some unknown reasons Mussolini did not like to visit gasoline stations and so he decided ,to give it to his army as a donation and ordered to conquer Africa.

And it worked!

As soon as this car appeared on the horizon,all of the natives fled, sreaming loud and shivering with fear!

But one day in the Sahara desert a giant sand-storm devoured Ducomobile and since than it was not seen anymore.

 

Believe it or don´t...

 

Now some brave men are required to start an expedition with the goal to find and dig out this legendary car and to unravel it´s secrets and mysteries .

 

I´m convinced,our team can do it !

 

Please forgive my strange sense of humor! (and of course I know this S 76 car still exists )

Beeing serious again I want to wish you and your dear ones love and peace,wisdom ,health and happiness !   Hannes

 

[Roy vd M.]

18 hours ago, NickD said:

I made the following assumptions: (...)

 

The outside edges of the tyres where they contact the ground, form a straight line that is parallel with the bonnet and horizontal. Strictly the instide edge does but the outside edge will be slight deflected by the compression of the front tyre. I assume this is negligible (say 10mm max in 2400mm)

 

Remark 1: if I understand correctly you also use the bottom line (plus assumption #6) to calculate the diameter of the tyre. In that, the compression of the tyre would not be negligible. Suppose the compression is indeed 10 millimeter then the tyre diameter would be 20 millimeters (=almost 1 inch) taller than your calculations would lead to.

 

Remark 2: I'm not sure if the bottom green line has the same distance to the viewer as the two 'front wheel cross green lines'. 

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

Tyre sidewall to rim ratio - 2*4.5 :21 - This seems to line up well with Blender and the other work we have done that leads to a 30" nominal diameter.

 

Remark 3: if the work that leads to a 30" nominal diameter isn't accurate then I'm not sure it is a good idea to use that data. 

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

 

Assumptions 1 and 2 are necessary as they appear to be the only lines on the entire car that are horizontal and parallel with the car centre-line. From these I could calculate a vanishing point. See photo 2 below:

 

Remark 4: the second green line from the top does not seem to cross the top of the front wheel rim. In these measurements it's important to be pixel-accurate. 

 

Remark 5: not only should the second green line from the top be a bit higher (unless I interpret your lining incorrectly) near the front wheel, there is also camber to take into account. If anything, the green line should be half a millimeter or a millimeter (or so) (even) higher.

 

Remark 6: I don't understand why the front wheel 'blue cross' is larger than the front wheel 'brown cross'. How did you calculate the position of the four brown crosses in the center of the picture? It seems to me that their enlargement (I measured: approximately 6 pixels per cross) isn't 'exponential' (I really mean a linear increase in size). That's why I used the average between front and aft weel sizes. 

 

I think this is why your results in measuring Photo 4 differ so much from the other photos. 

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

The VP is way off to the left and is formed from the top and bottom green lines. The corresponding line on the LH side also goes through the VP and encouragingly lines up the two wheel contact points

 

Could you upload your Inkscape files? 

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

From the VP I constructed 2 additional green lines. One that goes through the top of the rear wheel rim and one through the bottom.

 

See my remarks 4 and 5; I think your vanishing point is a bit too far away.

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

That allowed me to construct a quadrillateral that was tangential to the rim and would be square in a proper true side view.

 

See remark 6: while the aft quadrilateral seems to be correct and matches its brown cross, the front doesn't match up with its brown cross. (Note: perhaps I misunderstand your method, which may be applicable to every remark and every question raised in this post). 

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

I approximated the front wheel extent with the blue cross but it is drawn to the wrong perspective lines (because  the front wheels have camber).

 

Although I admit there is the camber issue, the blue cross ends in the bottom (where camber is least noticable) differ so much from the brown cross ends that I think there's an error here. See remark 6.

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

As an aside, the rear perspective lines do not align with the front wheels and nor should they because the wheels are not upright. 

 

So the line should be higher instead of lower. See remark 5. 

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

I repeated the analysis with Photo 4

 

That's Photo 9.

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

Then did  photo 9.

 

That's Photo 4.

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

Photo7 

 

That's Photo 9. 

 

18 hours ago, NickD said:

What can we conclude? All photos appear to agree that 30" is too big.

 

I am still not convinced. I find it hard (=almost impossible) to believe that the tyres are 7,6 centimeters lower than I calculated, mainly because I got 30 inches (remember: 29,99 inches) from three pictures independently and the tyre height seems to line up very well with the top of the radiator cover. 

 

The tyre diameter in Drawing 2 is 28,5 inches. I think that the tyres should be larger than that, but according to your measurements it should be even lower. 

 

A diameter of 27 inches would give this view:

 

 

 

 

I think this is highly unlikely, not to say impossible. See the distance between top of tyre and top of bonnet (=radiator cap). Compare with this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next there is the problem with tyre thickness. If the tyre diameter was so small, the tyre thickness would be smaller and we'd probably get back to 3,5 inches or so. 

 

Another problem would be the alignment of Engine Drawing 5 + Drawing 2 to the front wheel tyre wall. If the tyre size is 30 inches Drawing 2 would match very well, if it is 27 inches it wouldn't. 

 

Now my own method isn't perfect either, something you made me realize. Perhaps together we can get closer to the truth. And maybe the truth is even a tyre size of 28,5 inches as indicated by Drawing 2, although I still doubt the tyres were that small. And trust me, I do want to believe Drawing 2. 

 

First I rotated Photo 2 so that there is a horizontal guideline from rear wheel hub to front wheel hub. 

 

 

I added guidelines to the end of the rear tyre and the end of the rim. 

 

 

I now realize that the hub isn't in perspective. I would have to recalculate but I'm not sure it would affect the end result much. 

 

I estimated the position of the rear wheel front end of the rim (tyre blocks the view) as well as the rear wheel front end of the tyre. I did take into account perspective here, in my estimation.  

 

 

Same with the front wheel end:

 

 

 

Here you can see that correction of (wheel hub) perspective would not change much probably; if anything, the measured tyre size would get larger. 

 

 

Next, measurements were done. 

 

 

 

This means:

 

1. Length of utmost rear point of rear tyre to utmost front point of rear tyre is 429 pixels. Same with front tyre is 550 pixels. The average is 489,5 pixels. 

2. Length of utmost front point of rear tyre to utmost rear point of front tyre is 1050 pixels. 

3. Dividing 1050 by 489,5 is 2,14504597. That means approximately 2,1 tyres fit between the front and rear tyres, lengthwise.

4. For the wheelbase, two halves of a tyre should be added. Therefore approximately 3,1 tyres equals the wheelbase. 

5. Wheelbase is 2.400 millimeters. Dividing by 3,14504597 leads to a tyre diameter of 763,1mm. or 30,04 inches.

 

 

Now I really have to help my girlfriend prepare for Christmas dinner... I wish you all the best the coming days!

[Black Knight]

Just a quick note afore I go.

Its quite normal to NOT have a soild joint between the front and main exhaust tubes. Often the front is a sliding fit into the rear main tube.

This is to allow the tubes to flex with the chassis. A solid joint with solidly fixed exhausts leads to fractures at any weak point that the vibration can find.

 

In the picture of my Austin earlier I have a short tube attached for certain events. Its a sliding fit into the expansion box. For long rallies I have an exhaust which runs the length of the car and up over the rear wheel, it too slides into the expansion box and is supported to the car near the rear. My fittings are the reversal of what many others do