Hannes Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Very interesting and very well done ! The brake system parts and the engine are my favorites . Regarding the engine : In my opinion the frontal engine suspension was a hanging construction below the second cross-member ( inside the radiator case . )There must have been connecting parts on the massive compressor imho . Unfortunately we cannot see this construction on our 406 drawings but the engine drawing of the originally provided 451 2-stroke engine shows a solution . The Protar / Italeri representation with a frontal suspension on the crankcase looks logically but most likely is wrong .The rear suspension had to carry almost the whole weight of the engine imho . Great work ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Stephen, Looking good. Engine was particularly impressive. Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 On 31/08/2018 at 21:35, harveyb258 said: I had to first write it down, then type into google and finally write again the translation. Yes, it was rather frustrating at times, but you learn a helluva lot more about a language, when in manual mode, so to speak, rather than just having a translation appear on your screen That is exactly what I have been doing. I basically have 3 Google translate tabs open. The first has the text typed from the report (misspellings, illegibilities and all). The second has another It to Eng translation window that I can use for individual words and the 3rd has Eng to It so I can look up what the It word for "spark-plug" actually is! That gets me close. Then I have to translate the resulting "English" into english. As you say a great learning opportunity. Not sure the original author, an engineer presumably, was particularly good at spelling! Hannes, thanks for the drawings - another useful resource. Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 The book I mentioned above arrived today . As Roy already said there´s nothing new regarding our 806 . On page 61 on this thread we can see the chapter which is relating to our car . But the book itself is a treasure box full of informations about Fiat´s golden age . A lot of beautiful pics and photos can be seen and you can travel back in time if you look at them . The first photo shows Carlo Salamano and his driving mechanic Ferretti in his 805 .The shape of the fairing reminds me of our drawing 5 . Conclusions ??? The second photo with Nazzaro´s autograph shows the surface of the dashboard with circular structures . The painting originates from 1922 and shows two 804 ( Bordino on board of the 11 ) and a Bugatti .It´s interesting for us because we can see the typical Fiat bloody red of that time which could have looked similar on our 806 . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 In my opinion it´s necessary to talk about Codognato´s contemporary painting - our drawing 5 - again . Roy´s statement was that these kind of posters never were realistic because they only should transfer emotions and artistic freedoms are allowed . I don´t think that´s true . In my opinion Codognato wanted to represent this car as realistic as possible but he already painted it when the real car was not yet completely constructed .It reflects Massimino´s plans at the beginning of 1927 and not the final result imho .I guess there was a cooperation between engineer and artist . So-what´s different ? -The steering lever is situated far more frontal than the final solution . -The steering cross-rod between the frontal wheels is situated more frontal as well and goes through the radiator case and not the bonnets. -Therefore there was room enough for a stream-line covering of the frontal manifolds and an additional panel in this region. -The quadrangular exhaust branches became round in reality . -The white tyres which were mounted on many predecessors were replaced by black ones . -The wrapping around the steering wheel looks exactly like versions of the 805 but became one-colored later on . -The shape of the fairing´s right downside most likely should look like on the Salamano photo above but was cut and altered .( that´s important if you want to reconstruct the 451-version , dear Harvey ! ) -The gap is covered by a panel with louvres . An important issue is the color scheme. The predecesssors showed red painted rims , spokes .hubs and brake drums .I cannot rule out that our 806 was a red-wheeler too ! The exceptions are the outer sides of the brake drums. As it seems these parts were not painted at all ( photo 4 and others )I guess they were surrounded by a strip of red color . If we look at the painting from this point of view we could possibly learn a lot about the development of our car . The 15-number was subsequent painted imho and a credible representation of the number on the furrowed bonnets was too difficult even for an good artist . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 I´m convinced that the key for understanding the whole 806 / 451/406 concept is the Codognato painting ! It´s the missing link which was right before our eyes for a long time and we didn´t realize it ! It´s the base for scientific reconstructions of the 806 / 451 and the early 806 / 406 version as they were planned . And it´s possible now to draw general plans of both versions and to tell a great part of the whole story . However , some aspects still need further research . Some additional observations : -A longer steering column most likely was provided for the 451 and early 406 version imho and a lever on the right chassis rail similar to the Mefistofele . -The new 406 bonnets were not yet manufactured when Codognato painted them .Bigger and less louvres like on the predecessors were painted . Smaller and more louvres were established on the final version due stability reasons on a curved surface imho . -The new radiator case without the hole for the steering cross-rod was not yet manufactured as well .As it seems the steering system was not yet completely planned at that time . -The dimensions of the exhaust system are still the same like on drawing 1 . In my opinion the 4-stroke engine did not require these oversized manifolds and pipes . The exhaust system was not yet constructed when Codognato painted this virtual car ! -The heat protection shield was provided as a smaller version with less height . -The scoop on the right side was realized at a later time . -The stiffening construction below the chassis rails most likely was established after the installation of the 406 engine . -The useless right cam-fairing gives a hint that a central engine was provided first and the shifting of the engine happened after the manufacturing of the bonnets . It´s possible too that it was kept for aesthetical reasons . The question is :Why there was no new painting of Codognato after the real car was constructed ? Well , an artist needs a commission if he wants to earn money . I guess Agnelli was not in the mood for that . This painting was not published as an advertisement paper before the real car won his race . All informations were kept secret and the car was constructed under camouflaging conditions . The painting was not made for the public but was provided as a memorial document inside the company . Maybe a director said to Codognato " Even it´s not realistic anymore it looks similar enough , just paint a 15-number on it and finito ! " I suppose this decision was bad regarding our model but good regarding our research ! Many greetings ! Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Great observations, dear Hannes. All of them relevant, especially for the 451 project....thank you! I too, think that the hanging stiffening assembly was a later addition ( after 1st round of testing the 406 package). If you notice another thing...the front leaf-springs are mounted below the axle, with hanging mounting points under the chassis rail......different! A good clue to the 451 set-up, maybe??? As for the front floor, maybe it ran full length like 805 etc?? It was to be a 2-seater, after all, at the concept's birth at the start of 1925. The 451, being a much narrower unit was (probably?) mounted centrally, so the "speed-bumps" on the bonnets would have no relevance whatsoever. The exhaust ports on both 451 examples are rectangular, whereas the 406's are circular. Maybe Codognato witnessed Bordino testing the 451 at Monza in the summer of '26??? The plot thickens.... Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Dear Harvey , I intend to draw the 451 version but still need some time till all parts come together in my head . Your observations are very precious and I will use them for my drawing ! A very interesting observation regarding the leaf springs ! But I doubt that there were any test drives with the 451 engine . As far as I know this engine was never installed in a driving car , only on the test stand . A lot of pistons were required and a mechanic became deaf during the test runs ! The whole construction beside the engine was not perfected as well imho . For the 451 version no cam fairings were provided of course and I believe that two straight rows of big , fat louvres on the bonnets were designed .We can see these kind of louvres on all predecessors and they were situated only on ( almost ) straight panels of the 801 -805 and not on very curved parts . If a real 806 / 451 would have existed , the louvres would be smaller as well imho and other problems should have been already solved . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 3 hours ago, Hannes said: But I doubt that there were any test drives with the 451 engine . As far as I know this engine was never installed in a driving car , only on the test stand . May I bring your attention to post 2071 on p83, down at the bottom...? http://imageshack.com/a/img923/8434/KBmGXK.png 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Dear Harvey , it´s the only source of information regarding a driving 806 / 451 and I don´t think that it reflects the truth . Why should Fiat bring Bordino back to Europe ( he was driving races in the United States at that time ) just for test driving a car with an engine which was exploding all the time ? And why did none of the surviving participants mention a predecessor ? (like Massimino and the talkative Salamano ) I´m sure that some photos would still exist and more reports by other sources as well .Of course some parts were already manufactured at the end of the 451 test runs ( winter 26 / 27 ) like the bodywork which had to get adapted to the new 806 / 406 chassis and most likely many other preparation works were done as well . This 451 engine never left it´s test house imho and in Sebastien´s book there´s also no hint regarding a real 806 / 451 . If someone who´s reading this thread has different informations , please contribute ! Many greetings ! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I was reading the Rogliatti interview with engineer Massimino again and he said that the 451 engine ( internal name : 151 ) was never installed in a racing car ! Even if I have repeat what I already posted I want to tell the 806 history again according Massimino´s records: - On the 4th of July in 1925 the general design of the car was layed down with an output drive shifted towards the left side for enabling a deep seat position ( wrong statement above-sorry ! ) -In September 1925 Massimino constructed the suspension of the rear axle -In December he reckoned the clutch according advices of his boss Cavalli - In January 1926 we was busy to construct the bodywork and numerous other details The chassis was an usual construction at that time and the engines were developed by the Zerbi team as we all know. In my opinion the development of the car was very much delayed because the 451 engine was a time-consuming wrong construction . Many greetings ! Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. P Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Hello, I have been looking at the front engine mount and the 405 engine drawing recently posted shows a clamp at the front of the supercharger. Using this design and inverting it fits perfectly on my model so this is what I will be using. https://www.dropbox.com/s/34d83484p4t7j8a/front engine mount1.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/q7nxju2fgwwx89v/front engine mount.JPG?dl=0 I am slowly filling in CAD details https://www.dropbox.com/s/syztd8zjwtptset/chassis WIP 4.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/uzg4zxrflvrss9n/chassis WIP 3.JPG?dl=0 Here are a couple of parts I 3D printed https://www.dropbox.com/s/ba917dw4pa1vdd0/20180912_191431.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/y5tvo3wy4czwqso/20180903_180243.jpg?dl=0 Best regards, Stephen 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Great work , dear Stephen , congratulations ! It´s very interesting to see how four modellers approach the same topic with very different methods ! I like the solution regarding the frontal engine suspension very much and I guess I will represent a similar construction . Two remarks : The central fasteners are different for each side ( mirrored ) with different wings . The frontal fasteners show drilled holes . In my opinion the frames of the frontal bodywork are connected only by one strut ( between the magnetos ) Many greetings ! Hannes PS: A question : What scale ? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Excellent CAD work, Stephen! I really like your solution for the engine mount, it looks very plausible to me. I may just have to "borrow" that idea for mine! Love those magnetos, too! One point, though....I think your magneto shelf is way too wide. I reckon it should only be wide enough to carry the mags, tbh. Keep up the good work! Cheers, H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Stephen, As the others said this is looking good. What scale are the printed parts? and what material? They look much smoother than is often the case. Regards Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 After a break I´m continuing now with my work . The tank is just a fragment and shows the visible parts . It´s not yet completed , that´s why I will wait with painting . Some details need to get added as well . The next project will be the rear axis including springs and dampers . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Welcome back, Hannes! Great tank, too! If bodywork isn't going to be removeable, then this is the perfect solution to represent it! Good job, Sir! Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Thanks a lot , dear Harvey ! Yes , I need that space for the fixation of the bodywork and for the internal suspension of the rear axle because my model will become quite heavy . It´s one of the compromises regarding my construction but will be unvisible in the end . I think it´s interesting for all spectators that we are able to offer very different solutions ! I greatly admire your very well elaborated tank of course and my philosophy is a sculptor-wise proceeding . Olivier choose a different way as well and all this shows the wide spectrum of our hobby ! Many greetings ! Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Apart from being beautiful as always, I was interested by the way the fuel tank overhangs the top of the oil tank. Any pipework would be a pain to work on. It's also not clear how they installed the tank. Ideally it would go in from below but the chassis would be in the way. So they must have had to take the body off, and the fuel tank out to get the oil tank out. Sounds a bit of a faff. But maybe that is the way it has always been. They must have had the tank out because we know they added baffles. I'd loved to have talked to them about how the car was to work on. Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Dear Nick as far as I remember it was only the oil tank which needed baffles . In my opinion the gasoline tank was made out of steel sheets and welded together by using L-profiles .It should have been stiff enough for carrying the rear bodywork but I doubt that the alu skin was connected directly with the tank .( maybe only on the top-line ) The louvres would make no sense otherwise , I guess there were some profiles , possibly connected by sheets (welded or riveted to the bodywork )which strenghtened the construction and were holding the tank in place . On photo 3 we can see an odd structure which looks like an alu-welded repair sheet . Contrary to Harvey I decided to establish an additional slanted step on the fuel tank´s front .It´s my interpretation of drawing 2 and it makes sense for me because it´s easier for a mechanic to get access to the differential case and the fuel connection if the tank was designed this way . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 What are you referring to as 'baffles'? baffles to me are internal walls in a fuel or oil tank. imho the fuel tank of the 806 certainly had internal baffles. My Austin 7 has a 6 gallon [25L] petrol tank which sits across the top of the scuttle; it has two baffles in it. Each baffle runs fore-aft, is only 2/3 depth of the tank and each has about 4 large circular holes [about 4 as I cannot see down into the tank well enough to count them] The baffles prevent the petrol from surging from one side of the tank to the other during violent moves; if the petrol does rush to one side its weight can upset the balance and thus the handling of the car. The 806 would certainly need them 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 30, 2018 Share Posted September 30, 2018 Thank you , dear Fred for the clarification ! I´m sure that these kind of baffles were already in the fuel tank before it was installed . I was referring to the records during the test drives when it became clear that the oil tank needed more or different baffles . The fuel tank itself was designed similar to the predecessors and there was no need to remove it imho . Regarding the shape of the tank . I think I made a mistake by representing this slanted step and I think that Harvey´s solution is correct . I´ll have to alter my construction . These confusing lines which are crossing the tank on drawing 2 are most likely some air guiding or distance sheets ( or both ). It´s also possible that they show the different sheets of the tank construction , However , openings with flaps in the bottom sheet are better solutions regarding the access to the differential case and the fuel connection . Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted October 5, 2018 Share Posted October 5, 2018 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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