harveyb258 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Always persisting, matey!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Not a single photo of the 406 engine survived and a look at the predecessors could possibly give us hints how the surrounding could have been designed . From above we can see 2 photos of the 403 four-cylinder construction , one photo of the 404 six-cylinder- and another one of the 405 eight-cylinder engine. These engines were very different compared to the 406 U-type ( in-line engines with carburetors directly connected with the cylinder head and compressors separated from fuel supply ) . Some other components ( like pipelines , firewalls , ignition wires and so on ) could have looked similar in our car , that´s why I posted this collection . Many greetings ! Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Hannes, In the absence of any more direct evidence, your idea is a good one. It should help get the right feel. There is quite a lot of similiarities between the installations, a house style if you will. They seem to have made quite a lot of effort to keep things tidy. e.g. ignition leads are tied together but do not pass through a tube. Pipes are insulated where they might get heated. Pity the last picture is a bit dark. I would have liked to see what the cylinders looked like. ATB Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Dear Nick , if you are interested in the 405 engine I could show some technical drawings which are published in Sebastien´s great book . The magnetos are always situated on the left side of the engine and the oil tank hangs on the fire wall . That´s why there was enough space for a riding mechanic . Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Thank you for those, Hannes! I agree with both your comments...there will be many similarities in style and assembly. These pics are a valuable reference for the work to come! Yes please to the tech drawings! Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I have just had another look at the last picture and feel a bit freaked out by the severed head in the bottom left corner.... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 It´s a vicious punk , dear Harvey ! This guy invaded the soul of Mr . Agnelli ! Now we know the reason for the destruction of all Fiat racing cars !😈 The new developed 405 engine was one of Zerbi´s masterpieces but the whole concept of the 805 seems to be quite old-fashioned compared to our 806 . We all know ( by our research ) why and how this development happened and the gap is actually not too big if we consider the circumstances . Many greetings ! Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 Looking at the drawings above again I have to correct my point of view . The tank right behind the engine seems to be the breather tank of the dry sump lubrication . The oil tank itself appears to be situated between the firewall and the dashboard . It´s also interesting to see the differences between the second drawing and reality regarding the size of this breather tank . If we look closely at the 2 photos of the two 4-cylinder 403 engines we also can see some differences .By the way : The general plan of the 802 and it´s engine 403 still exist as well . Unfortunately not a single detail plan of a Fiat racing car survived that could show us all connections of the pipes (oil , water and fuel .) A look at other contemporary racing cars could help to find solutions . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Chaps, Hope all is well. Here's the next installment of tech report translation. 6° After a few laps, the fuel tank temperature reached 47° and additional cooling in the bodywork was required. -- I assume this is the set of slots, we discussed at length, in the rear bodywork. They always looked a bit of an afterthought. Is this just me catching up? Unfortunately the only photo we have for this period is too small to show whether the slots were there 7° The attachment pin in one of the Hartford damper rosettes broke 8° The oil pan breather has not improved: transverse bulkheads in the tank itself will be necessary to prevent oil movement during braking. -- I think we knew this from elsewhere 9 ° The R2 sparkplugs are still subject to unusual cracking. -- All of these things just confirm again that this was a proper cutting edge racing car. More soon Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Dear Nick , thanks a lot ! My point of view regarding nr.6 : Photos 1 and 2 show the pre-racing car with removed panel . ( this means after the first Monza test drive ) On these photos we can see all inlet-and outlet louvres of the right side .The driver´s seat prevents an air cooling of the tank on the right side , that´s why I believe that the frontal louvres were part of the 406 concept from the beginning .Same goes for the 6 outlet louvres around the Bordino tip .Drawing 1 cannot give an answer because it was subsequent altered . In my opinion only the 3 inlet louvres on the left side were additional attached because they look very slip-shod elaborated . We also should not forget that in 1925 this car most likely was planned as a two-seater . The co-driver´s seat prevents a direct air-cooling of the tank as well . And none of the predecessors had tank-cooling louvres in it´s rear bodywork .As it seems the 406 was a very hot little engine ! The closed bodywork shape on the left side of our 806 keeps the heat inside the car , maybe therefore an open left side was planned for the successor as we can see on drawing 2 . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 11 hours ago, Hannes said: .As it seems the 406 was a very hot little engine ! …..and with a body to match it!! Thank you once again Nick, for your translation work! I've been doing a bit of that, too...… Hannes' post no. 4932 0n page 198.....GOLD-MINE of info., ENJOY! The supercharging device requires the relatively complex installation of several interdependent elements. -THE FUEL TANK: as for the 801,803 and 804 from 1921-22, it is installed in the rear end of the car and is easily demountable. The fuel is at atmospheric pressure. -THE FUEL SYSTEM: it's a copper pipe that connects the tank to the carburettor. _COMPRESSOR (Wittig): it's a kind of fixed fan at the front of the engine, at the end of the crankshaft and constantly drives through the latter ( therefore, not detachable, unlike the Mercedes). It sucks the air at atmospheric pressure and delivers it at a higher pressure at the carburettor, through a pipe of high section. -THE SUPERCHARGING PUMP: it is fixed in the cockpit, under the dash board and is driven by the exhaust camshaft via a flexi-shaft. It sucks the fuel from the tank to deliver under pressure to the carburettor. -THE MANUAL AUXILLIARY PUMP: attached to the supercharging pump, it is operated by hand to put the fuel under pressure when starting the engine. Once the engine is launched, it is normally no longer used. However, in case of pump failure, during the race, it is the auxiliary pump that takes over, being manually activated by the mechanic to maintain the fuel circuit pressure. -THE CHARGE PUMP AIR LINE: it is a very small diameter tube that connects the large compressed air tube to the supercharging pump. It's role is not defined. -THE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR: it is a button on the dashboard that the mechanic uses to adjust the fuel pressure. -THE RESERVE TANK: it is a back-up tank that takes over when the main fuel tank runs out. -THE RESERVE PUMP: when switching over to the reserve tank, this pump allows the mechanic to manually put it under pressure, to route the fuel to the carburettor and maintain a minimum to mix it with the compressed air. Cheers, H 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Many thanks for your translation work , dear Harvey ! Some informations will be useful for the construction of our models , some other will be less helpful because some systems were altered in our car . BTW . The button for the fuel pressure also can be seen on photo 3 ( right side of the dashboard ! ) Unfortunately the construction inside our 406 compressor was never published as a drawing , contrary to it´s predecessors . There are many drawings of the compressors 403-405 in Sebastien´s book and I hesitate to show them because they possibly could put us on the wrong track . Many of the co-driver´s tasks had to be done by poor Bordino and it´s possible that some systems were altered beside the compressor . Maybe the supercharging pump was not necessary anymore because the compressor did not only suck in pure air but an air-fuel mixture . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Chaps, Excellent - need to take some time to absorb it all. Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I ordered the rare book " Trent´anni di corse .Storia della Fiat " by S. Boschi on Italian ebay . This book was published in 1966 and it describes the years when Fiat participated in GP racing activities . I don´t expect new photos but with many eye-witnesses still alive at that time we could possibly find out some details regarding our research . Because it´s written in Italian , translation programs will help .They improved a lot in the last years . More soon Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I look forward to your book review, dear Hannes. Because of my total lack of tech-knowledge, I found the translation programs (google etc) to be a pain in the posterior, tbh…. I did the page above and the 6-page chapter about the 451/ 2-stroke engine....only just finished doing it this week from when it was posted. I had to first write it down, then type into google and finally write again the translation. Yes, it was rather frustrating at times, but you learn a helluva lot more about a language, when in manual mode, so to speak, rather than just having a translation appear on your screen. I mirror your optimism regarding new info....I still think there HAS to be some more remnants of knowledge out there. Maybe Mr Montezemelo holds all the secrets; didn't HE try to build our beloved? There still remains a HUGE veil of secrecy surrounding this piece of history...Centro Storico certainly weren't as helpful (or interested tbh) as we would have hoped they would be. The "The life & times of the Fiat 806" chapter is FAR from closed imho! Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 You are right , dear Harvey ! I still remember the various trials of our good Olivier but most of the Italian persons or institutions remained silent or even hostile .And Roy also did his best , but almost no responses as well . And there are a lot of Tifosi in Italy who should be interested in their own motorsport history ! Not a single native Italian contributed on our thread ! Luca di Montezemolo was fired in 2013 and we know that he tried to reconstuct this car at the beginning of this century . I´m sure it was a failure and we never heared about this project anymore . And he´s a rich man similar to famous collectors like Jay Leno or Rick Wright . I wonder where the last part of the 406 engine is today and where Massimino´s documents are hidden. As it seems we are the only ones who dare to reconstruct this car , even it´s only a model .Maybe some day our research will help to reconstruct this racer in1:1 . If this is the case , it would be fair to give us informations now and not to wait in the background . I´m sure that some important documents still exist and possibly some more photos . This car is a cultural icon not only for Italy but also for Europe and the Italians should be proud ! No reason to be ashamed about it´s destruction.We will revive it ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted September 1, 2018 Author Share Posted September 1, 2018 I have that book and it doesn't contain any new photos unfortunately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted September 1, 2018 Author Share Posted September 1, 2018 See here. Sorry I've been (and for some months will be) almost non-present on the forum, work and private matters (positive) are absorbing my time. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Thank you , dear Roy ! We really have a giant thread here and it´s easy to loose survey . However , I will enjoy this book and maybe there are some hints in other chapters . We already gained many informations which allow us to build realistic models . Many icings on the cake were found and it´s possible that we already reached some limits . But some discoveries in the last time are reasons enough for staying optimistic . Many greetings ! Hannes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. P Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 hello all, I am a new member, but I have been watching this group for some time and wanted to introduce myself. I appreciate the effort and dedication that has gone into this thread. I have been working on my own 806 CAD model and I have recently begun fabricating parts. Thanks to you all, Stephen 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Welcome to the madness, Stephen!! I very much look forward to seeing your work!! Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Welcome , Stephen ! It´s a pleasure for us to know that we are not the only ones who want to reconstruct this great car . Now we are curious of course how your CAD- model looks like . Please , show us some pics ! Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. P Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Here are a few links to some CAD work. I use a program called Rhino https://www.dropbox.com/s/4egdxcuytchoo7z/brake2.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/2kwdwh9ckgm3azl/Capture22.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/1or7d7v4ny91ck9/WIP1.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/5gi3je56jitmvb2/WIP2.JPG?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/ia9heiqratpaid9/engtest.jpg?dl=0 This is a quick 3D scan of the kit for an interesting comparison https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6yq81hvcpbrtix/Capturem1.JPG?dl=0 I'll be making many of the parts with 3D printing. Best regards, Stephen 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now