Totally Mad Olivier Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 On 09/07/2018 at 20:13, Hannes said: Olivier as our first pioneer now can sit in his rocking chair and watch what the other boys do ☺️ Dear Hannes, I admit you are right, and I was so focused on my own build, the Missouri Armada P-51D Mustang, that I just followed your progress but didn't take the time to read the comments. And now that I begin a new build and a new thread, dedicated to the Ford Mustang 1965 Convertible probably at 1/16 scale, I will go on following your progress but will not have the time to read the debates, even if I am sure they are very interesting. Keep up the good work anyway, my friend! Cheers Olivier 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Dear Nick , I tend to 4 a because a scavenger system would not need a 31 litres tank imho . The oil consumption of 4-5 litres/ 100 km point into the direction of a total loss and fresh oil supply over a GP-distance of 500-600 km . If the oil temperature needed to get cooled down , why not by an oil radiator ? It´s far more effective and needs less space than some tubes in a tub imho . However , I´m grateful for your contribution and I want to say " Thank you " ! Maybe our other experts do have different ideas ? Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Hannes, I share your confusion. All the evidence suggests a "closed" dry sump system - but it seems to have been a very leaky system hence the very large capacity. We will probably never know. Oil radiator - yep that would make sense to me too but maybe that's hindsight. Did anyone use oil radiators in 1927. If they did, why did Fiat not. If not maybe the layout is more understandable. Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 12, 2018 Share Posted July 12, 2018 Dear Nick , the question regarding an oil radiator was more of a rhetorical nature .For water-cooled engines no oil radiators and no oil cooling in general were required at that time .One of the first known oil-radiators for an air-cooled engine was installed in a Stoewer 8-cylinder in 1931 . The dry-sump lubrication with an additional tank was used only for racing engines and it required a second and bigger pump . This way the height of the engine could get reduced . Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 The construction of the heat protection sheet was way more complicated than I thought . I used thin plastic plates because it´s easier to adapt them to the slightly curved bodywork . Flexible plastic tends to get deformed when filing and sanding and it´s almost impossible to achieve straight and even surfaces . That´s why I integrated a thin brass strip and a tiny steel rod in this construction .After that I could realize my goal . The sheet is connected with the bodywork by small bolts , nuts and washers and it is still removable of course . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Sebastien´s book " Fiat en Grand Prix" is a source of many informations and I highly recommend the purchase . Drawing 2 doesn´t show many details ,that´s why a look at the constructions of the predecessors could give hints how some sytems worked in our 806 . The 805 fuel and compressor system is shown on the drawings above . There are several pumps , mechanical or manual operated and the tasks of a co-driver are obvious . I´m aware that the 806 / 406 combination is a very different construction and the driver could not take on all the tasks of a co-driver .Alterings and simplifications most likely were the consequence . The magnetos of the 405 engine were situated on it´s left side btw . What´s interesting on the right drawing is the small reserve tank filled with parrafine for the oil clutch . On the side-view of drawing 2 we can see a construction in front of the firewall with holes of a different size .In my opinion this was the place where a small parrafine tank was situated . Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Thank you for sharing that, Hannes. There's some very interesting info in there....pity I can't read French I'm under no illusion as to the complexity of the cockpit area though, I'm sure it'll still be rather busy in there....look at the Delage, for instance! Lot's of inspiration. Cheers, H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 On 12/07/2018 at 20:29, Hannes said: Dear Nick , the question regarding an oil radiator was more of a rhetorical nature .For water-cooled engines no oil radiators and no oil cooling in general were required at that time .One of the first known oil-radiators for an air-cooled engine was installed in a Stoewer 8-cylinder in 1931 . The dry-sump lubrication with an additional tank was used only for racing engines and it required a second and bigger pump . This way the height of the engine could get reduced . Hannes Hi Hannes, Your comment just highlights the enduring fascination (for some of us at least). It appears that no-one cooled oil before the early 30s and yet, massimo draws a picture which suggests they were thinking about it in '27 (supported by the quote). Yet they did not do the obvious and mount the radiator vertically with air going through it. Instead it is mounted below the tank. Some vintage motor-cycles seem to have a similar pipe with flanges oil cooler. But these are mounted across the vehicle so the air flows between the plates. To me, it seems that the solution they had for lubrication was quite novel and either ahead of it's time or not very effective or not possibly seen or understood by others. By the way, thanks for the extract above. Very interesting and not to say complicated. To echo Harvey's comment, this thread is doing wonders for my French! Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I like the 6 exchange spark plugs on the right drawing ( for an 8-cylinder engine ! ) It´s hard to imagine : There´s a problem regarding the ignition , the driver halts his car on the roadside during the race , the co-driver jumps out of the car and starts to exchange exactly the spark plug which causes the trouble 😄 This scenario reminds me of the slapstick silent movies of that time ! Many greetings ! Hannes 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo NZ Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 He will probably find the cylinder that isn't firing by spitting on his hand and touching each exhaust manifold port in turn. The one that isn't firing doesn't sizzle... The Auto-Union mechanics used to do that in the 30s with the V-16. I was disappointed to see that nowadays they use a laser thermometer. No sense of adventure! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 12 hours ago, Hannes said: This scenario reminds me of the slapstick silent movies of that time ! I can just picture a Laurel & Hardy sketch of the scene!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 The contemporary scetch ( a pattern for a model ? ) shows the ultimate solution for all problems with a car! 😁I like the basket under the engine for collecting loose parts ! Hannes 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Hi chaps! 23 hours ago, NickD said: Your comment just highlights the enduring fascination (for some of us at least). It appears that no-one cooled oil before the early 30s and yet, massimo draws a picture which suggests they were thinking about it in '27 (supported by the quote). Yet they did not do the obvious and mount the radiator vertically with air going through it. Instead it is mounted below the tank. Some vintage motor-cycles seem to have a similar pipe with flanges oil cooler. But these are mounted across the vehicle so the air flows between the plates. Could there possibly be something like this...…..? Similar to the kind of thing you find on the back of fridges etc?, The line and blocks in the pipe have been puzzling me for a while now, maybe this is the explanation....who knows???? Cheers, H 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Dear Harvey , if there was a cooling system this snake would be a very good explanation .The crucial point is if the oil needed to get cooled down or not . Beside the odd translation on page 49 there´s not a single hint for that . If there was a fresh oil supply and a total loss system , certainly not .If the oil would return to this giant tank with 30 - 40 litres of oil in it , a cooling system would make no sense as well imho . I agree with Fred that hot oil was desired and the cooling water prevents an extremly high temperature . We should look at the oil supply systems of similar high performance racing cars .I´m sure we will find an explanation by investigation . If this tank was an additional fuel tank and the tank in front of it the real oil tank a cooling system would make sense imho . I want to add : I really like your creativity and I appreciate it ! Many greetings ! Hannes 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Chaps, I had wondered if there was something like Harvey's sketch from the drawing but felt it was both too vague to draw and a bit complicated to draw so had not yet pursued it. To cool or not that is definitely the question. We have not one but two bits of information suggesting that they cooled the oil. The article and the drawing. I think we should not dismiss them. We also know that car seems to have operated hot. We might also infer that the drawing 2 car appears to have had a bigger tank than the built car. So the built car ran hot and used a lot of oil. I don't recall anywhere that high oil consumption always = total loss. So it may have recycled the surviving oil for reuse. If it was reused it would be warmer. This might be good up to a point. But the car ran hot, so maybe it overheated the oil to the point where it started to degrade. That would not have been good. Hence they might have felt the need to cool. Why not just do total loss. The screen on the steering and potential the floor of the studio, suggest a lot of oil escaped anyway. Losing it all might not ideal for the rear tyres. So my view, in the absence of any new material, and based on the flimsiest of evidence, is that the car had a small tank that they made bigger. It unusually recycled the oil. It had a radiator of the style Harvey drew above, inefficient though that may have been. If this is more or less unheard of for the time, maybe it wasn't well publicised (the car raced on just one day), and it perhaps did not work very well. If I've missed anything please let me know. Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 We should investigate first who wrote the article on page 49 and when . Roy reported that Olivier was sending him an article but it´s not the Sicilian Massimino article from 1967 on the same page . If it was written by contemporary engineers it would be much more credible than by an "expert " at a later time .See also the incorrect drawings and the " master model " ! There are wrong statements regarding tyre sizes and dimensions too ! We should always consider the risk of wrong informations and interpretations . Translation programs don´t always reflect the truth as well . Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 The principles of the dry sump sytem are still the same today . A suction pump delivers the hot oil foam from the engine to the additional tank where air and oil get separated ( by a centrifugal system fore instance ) In our case the n-shaped tube seems to be a release system for the air . A pressure pump delivers the oil back to the engine . The additional tank is not completely filled with oil because the separation system needs some space . The correct oil pressure is very important , internal chambers including pipelines could possibly help to keep a constant pressure . Depending on the amount of oil it takes some time till it´s hot enough for racing activities . In our case about 30 minutes while the engine is running . Most likely very hot oil was filled in for shortening the warm-up . A cooling of the oil is necessary if the engine is cooled by air ( a tuned VW-beetle for instance ) or if the amount of oil in the additional tank is very low . I cannot completely rule out that the oil needed to get cooled down , but I doubt it because there was a lot of oil in this tank ! Many greetings ! Hannes PS:The translation of the text above : The " hot seat " of a racing driver in the early 20´s .Beside the revolution counter the oil pressure manometer was the most important instrument . Left of the seat the oil tank of the dry-sump lubrication is situated , above it we can see the hand pump for the delivery pressure in the fuel tank . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 We should be cautious I agree. But I suspect we will never know without access to the Fiat archives. As with a number of issues, two solutions are plausible. In the absence of new evidence, we'll each go with the solution that makes most sense confident no one can really argue we are wrong! regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Hannes, I think our posts crossed. Your comments above helped me a lot. The n-shaped pipe suggests the tank had at least two compartments. Perhaps one, I guessed rear but who knows, was to allow the return oil to settle. suction from the other side would suck the oil through the "cooler" pipework. The two compartments would not necessarily be completely full. There would need to be space to allow the air to come out of the emulsion. So perhaps the capacity is not as big as it appears. If you fill the front tank, the level will drop when the oil is pumped round the engine, so maybe they sized the height of the tank to take the full oil capacity but it only ran half or 2/3rds of that height normally. Hope that makes sense. I would draw it but the process is frustrating on computers! Regards Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 I agree, dear Nick . I guess there were about 20 litres in this tank and it probably needed to get refilled during the pit stop ( s) which was necessary during a GP-race over 500 km or more . An oil consumption of 4-5 litres / 100 km is quite high and if the amount decreases a cooling of the rest could possibly make sense . Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Works for me as an idea. I guess the question is what do I draw for this tank. I am thinking short with cooling like Harvey drew. Supply from the bottom as shown above and return into the top at the back. Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Maybe a cooling system was activated if the oil temperature became too high by valves with wax and springs in them similar to the valves for cooling water .If the water is hot in the small circuit , it gets a permission to enter the radiator . Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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