Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Many thanks , dear Harvey for your kind words and the very good tip ! I used sanding paper ( 600 grain ) for dulling the semi-gloss color . I have to admit that the color is not yet hardened completely , that´s why I will leave it now as it is but I will remember your great advice when it will be installed . Now the additional tanks are the next project .

Many greetings!  Hannes

[PROPELLER]

Gorgeous this seat...
Congrats!

Dan. 

[CrazyCrank]

Yes Hannes, really, I'd swear it's leather, and this "red" is so realistic

 

[Hannes]

Many thanks , dear Dan and Thierry for your kind comments ! Now I have a problem and I want to ask Harvey and the other experts:On the top-view of  drawing 2 we can see an odd " case " on the rear end of the first additional tank . The kit´s solution does not convince me . On the side-view only a square can be seen but with different dimensions . I wonder if this should be the same construction as we can see on the top view . It doesn´t make any sense.. To make things even worse we can see a line above the top level line  of the additional tank , Again nothing can be seen on the top -view . I feel fooled !   Do you have any ideas ?

Many greetings !  Hannes

[NickD]

That looks really convincing - particularly when installed.

[harveyb258]

Dear Hannes,

 

The drawing can be a bit confusing, as it shows different details on both views. I think the small box would be like the top view...like protar did it but with far less bolts.

 

Regarding the line above the tank???? Quite a few pages ago, we were discussing about the "spare seat" that had to be in the car, even though there was no riding mechanic anymore. For quite a while now, I've thought it was the prop-shaft tunnel, but, on closer inspection of the drawing, you can see cut-outs for the filler cap etc, so that now leads me to believe that the whole tank was a covered seat!!!

 

Cheers, H

[Hannes]

That´s quite enlightening , dear Harvey , many thanks for that ! It seems as Salamano said : A completely covered seat was aboard . The small box most likely was provided for the driver´s needs , maybe a piece of Pizza was inside ?☺️  I really don´t know yet how to represent the covered seat . But I´m sure we will find a solution ! That´s the fascinating part of our work : To unravel some secrets . Have a good night !   Hannes

[harveyb258]

7 minutes ago, Hannes said:

I really don´t know yet how to represent the covered seat

I'm not sure that I will, tbh. I'm doing the test version, so it probably wouldn't have had it in yet!!

I'll be making 2 for the 451, though, so that should make up for it!

Have a good night, too, Hannes.

 

Cheers, H

[Hannes]

I could not sleep well because I mulled over the problems regarding the additional tank and the hidden seat and came to following conclusions : 

The only place for the stash of the second seat is the tub under the additional tank . Three folded parts of about 28 cm lenght fit in this tub .

Most likely these parts were leather-coated boards with a thin upholstery , connected by hinges .

Over the tank there was a support sheet  , probable mounted on a wooden frame .

I suppose that even at that time a co-driver was not allowed to sit directly on a tank filled with explosives .

On this sheet a metal frustum was mounted as we can see on the top-view including a strenghtening sheet at that place ( where the weight of a potential co-driver is high ) A smaller frustum is mounted directly on the tank ( side-view ) ,the bigger one  can slide over it .

I´ll try to draw a scetch in the next time . Of course everything I said is hypothetical and it´s only the base for further discussions .

Now I can  sleep better ...    Hannes

[Hannes]

 

 

[harveyb258]

My dear Hannes,, nice idea, but I'm afraid you have mis-read the blueprint. The "tub" you mention is actually the tank, so there's no room for storage under there...sorry.

When Salamano mentioned a completely covered seat, I don't think he meant that it was hidden, tbh. It looks to me that the seat was a minimumly upholstered "shroud" for the tank. If the tank was indeed for fuel, then I would naturally assume it would have to have some sort of protective barrier...so it would make sense to me.

 

11 hours ago, Hannes said:

Of course anything I said is hypothetical and it´s only the base for further discussions .

Ditto...

 

Cheers, H

[Hannes]

Mmm, not  convinced . If this tub would have been a part of the tank , the pipelines which lead downwards would be situated on the deepest spots and that´s not the case . I did  read Frankenberg´s interview again and Salamano said : It was prescripted that racing cars of that time still needed 2 seats , but in 1927 no second man needed to be aboard .That´s why this car was steered on the right side but on the other hand there was a completely covered second seat .

The German expression is " völlig abgedeckt " and there´s no room for a misinterpretation . It means it is covered completely by another part .

I  would like to hear the opinions of our other experts as well and of course I´m willing to learn if I was wrong .

Many greetings !   Hannes

[Hannes]

In my opinion this tub was connected firmly with the bottom plate . The tank above was snapped in this tub ( sandwiching construction )because it´s side sheets were elongated a bit and there was a small step for the rear edge of the tub . As we can see on drawing 2 the frontal  pipeline connection was situated a bit higher (on the same level as the tub´s upper  level ). The tub could help to keep the whole tank in place . If the spare seat was needed ,  the tank  could get lifted  and the spare seat could get pulled out .

Where else a second seat should " hide" ? It was prescripted that one had to be aboard  and I cannot see other places for the storage .

Many greetings !   Hannes

[harveyb258]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 8:33 AM, Roy vd M. said:

 

Obviously the engine was quite lively. During the tests at Monza consumption they ranged from 33 to 35 liters per 100 km, ie 2.8 to 3 km / liter. fuel tank behind the pilot.
Lubrication forced circulation of the dry sump type; pumps (one for delivery and recovery of the other) always moves by means of the gears of the left cylinder group. Motor-pumps approximate gear ratio: 1.3 / 1. The tank was placed in the driver's side; the lower part was in tubes to Activate cooling. average lubricant consumption, always recognized in Monza, were: 3.2% 3.6 kg / 100 km.
Now for the car, we are pointing out that this project was entrusted to the young engineer. Alberto Massimino, assisted by Boarelli designer.
To complete the description of the engine we speak of transmission, Clutch multiple discs in oil bath; We already said that the pressure plate springs were formed by the same together with the crown used for distribution.
Transmission 4-speed, of course not synchronized, with sliding gear; note the joystick is rather short and backward, according to the so-called turret scheme.

 

 

My dear Hannes, 

 Have just spent all day re-reading this thread for snippets of forgotten details and came across a post from Roy on p49. The tank to the driver's side was for oil, then. I knew I'd read it somewhere!

Phew, my eyes are tired after 49 pages....time for a rest....only another 146 to go

 

Cheers, H

[Black Knight]

23 hours ago, Hannes said:

Mmm, not  convinced . If this tub would have been a part of the tank , the pipelines which lead downwards would be situated on the deepest spots and that´s not the case . I did  read Frankenberg´s interview again and Salamano said : It was prescripted that racing cars of that time still needed 2 seats , but in 1927 no second man needed to be aboard .That´s why this car was steered on the right side but on the other hand there was a completely covered second seat .

The German expression is " völlig abgedeckt " and there´s no room for a misinterpretation . It means it is covered completely by another part .

I  would like to hear the opinions of our other experts as well and of course I´m willing to learn if I was wrong .

Many greetings !   Hannes

I've lost track of things.

Other than the word of one person is there evidence of a 'second' seat?

The 806 was a track racing car; only one seat was required by FIA rules. A second seat for a riding mechanic was only required for cars racing in Tourist Trophy and open road races

My 1930 Austin is built to 1926 and later TT rules; two seats [and other details] Austin built a special Austin 7 called the Brooklands Special just for track racing; it is a single seat car

[Hannes]

Many thanks to both of you !  My interpretation of Roy´s text  ( most likely translated by a translation program ) is that the liquid( in this case most likely the oil ) was cooled down by the tube ( s ? ) under the chassis . We can see some kind of lamellas at the connection points . On photo 10 we also can see an odd hanging construction and I wonder if this is a cooling tube .This tube also seems to be secured by a sheet or a stick  , connected by 4 clamps or similar .It´s hard to say ...

Regarding the spare seat I agree that there possibly was none aboard but Salamano actually drove this car , that´s why there´s some evidence for me that it was provided at least .

However , it doesn´t matter for my representation because we cannot look inside the tub. The upper part will get made according my drawing and it also doesn´t matter if this was a support sheet for a spare seat or just a protection sheet for Bordino´s left hand and arm .( or both )

 Pitiful  Bordino had to take over the tasks of a co-driver , to operate the levers on the magnetos ,possibly  the manual oil pump and had to drive this dangerous car in the pouring rain . That´s multi-tasking ! And of course he also had to win !

Many thanks again !   Hannes

[Hannes]

 

 

[Hannes]

The comparison photo with my basic-shaped tank shows us how far Protar was away from truth .Now some important considerations are coming up and I want to ask you  regarding a topic  : It´s about the cooling sytem of the tank . On the side-view of drawing 2 we can see a single tube  , on the top-view nothing can be seen .

The tank is quite huge and I think that a single tube is not sufficient for cooling down the oil´s temperature . 3 tubes , connected by a sheet seem to be more likely imho .

My question is : Does anyone know this kind of cooling system ? ( maybe on other racing cars ) ? Why  there was no oil radiator installed ?

Many greetings !    Hannes

[harveyb258]

Nice tank, Hannes!! 

I can't say that I've come across anything like this before, tbh. Maybe the lower part was full of pipework too?? ….. and that portion would be getting plenty of fresh, cooling air from the floor-scoop! 

Who knows??????

 

Cheers, H

[Hannes]

Thank you , dear Harvey . In this case the pump would make sense because the oil would not leave this system without pressure or gravity . It´s really an odd construction !  Maybe Fred knows more details ? Hannes 

[Black Knight]

The n shaped tubes are for the release of air pressure vacuum caused by

a/ hot oil  and

b/ the lowering of the oil level

The brass cap has a small hole in it to allow air through, inside the cap is a rubber or leather washer aligned so that air can get in but oil cannot get out.

The main filler cap is the big one on the left of Hannes' photo

The small cap next to the n tubes might be for a dip stick to check oil level

 

Cooling of engine oil was not necessary. There were only a few single grade heavy viscosity oils

Oil grades - for your modern car it might say on the can 10W/30. That means the viscosity is light; 10 in Winter or cold areas, but heavier; 30 in summer or in warmer areas

However, in our period, there were only single grade oils; 30, 40, 50 and 60 are typical

 

As oil heats up its viscosity gets less, it gets 'thinner' in common terms. As it heats up and gets less viscous its pressure decreases, making it easier to send around the engine

 

Two questions;

a/ is there sign of an oil pump on the engine?

b/ how deep is the engine sump?

 

There are four basic engine oiling systems

1. totally manual - the driver has to pump oil onto the moving parts - totally old fashioned and mostly done away with by 1928

2. sump and spray; the oil is kept in the sump, as the crankshaft and connecting rods rotate in the oil they splash the oil around the engine insides and it gets carried to parts such as the valves and cylinder bores

3. sump and pump; the oil is kept in the sump and a pump operated by the engine pumps the oil around the engine to the parts which need it

4. reservoir and pressure; the oil is kept in a separate reservoir tank and the oil is distributed around the engine by either pump or hot oil pressure

 

Within these 4 are 2 sub-categories

a/ total loss; which means - after the oil gets to the engine parts it vaporizes or drips off the engine, [and car!] or burnt out through the exhaust. This uses a lot of oil but its always clean,

there is no need for a filter in the system. Number 1 is this always. Numbers 2, 3 & 4 can be this system

b/ scavenger; this is used in your modern car. The used oil drips and runs back into the sump, usually after going through a filter of some sort. Number 1 can never be this. Number 2 and 3 can be this and Number 4 can be this but not usually.
 

Looking at the layout of 806 I think the engine oil system is 4-a

 

My Austin 7 has a race prepared engine. It is 3-b. Standard Austin 7 engines are 2-b

 

As for hot oil.

It is not necessary to cool the oil and it is often wanted that the thick oil gets hot.

I use 30 grade oil in my engine, At start up and until the engine starts to get hot the oil pressure starts at 50 lbs [pounds per square inch]. At proper engine running temperature of 88 degrees the oil pressure varies between 5 and 10 lbs, usually around 5 to 6 lbs, which means that the thick oil has thinned and is getting around the engine easier. If the oil remained at 30 viscosity the pump would have a harder time getting the oil through the special oil-ways in the engine.

On a racing car you do not need or want oil that is like the olive oil you put on your salad; you want it almost vaporizing so it can be a 'mist' around the engine parts

[Hannes]

Many thanks , dear Fred ! Again your profound knowledge answers a lot of questions ! It´s very important for my construction to know the functions of the parts  on top of the tank . I always believed that the N- shaped part was  made for filling in the oil and I desperately looked for the right spot  where I could mount it on my tank . Now I know it´s just a release system and that´s a completely new perspective , Thanks again for this information !

The only unclear remaining point is the tube system under the tank . If the oil is always fresh , there´s no need for a quick draining .

Many greetings !   Hannes

[Black Knight]

Various reasons for quick draining of the tank

 

1/ Oil then wasn't as pure as it is now. Back then some mild sludgy oil will form at the bottom of the tank. You should see the oil-ways inside a vintage engine which was just run on a 30 grade oil - they are nearly fully blocked up with the hardened sludge. After so many years the oil-ways can only be cleared by drilling the sludge out. A modern 30 oil has a detergent in it to prevent any sludge forming and if any does it doesn't stay in the oil-ways too much. All modern oils have detergent agents in them

 

2/ Also; different viscosity grades to be used according to the time of year or where the race is; at or near sea level the oil heats up quicker, at higher levels it heats up slower, so maybe a 50 oil at Monaco, a 30 at Nurburgring

 

3/ The races the 806 was to compete in lasted a long time. The car might start with a 30 oil in the morning and change to a 50 later at a pit stop, when the day was much warmer

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Very nice work, Hannes, but take care with the n shaped tubes: they are not correctly located on the kit. Check with our photo 28. Personally, I had to move it forward...

 

Cheers

 

Olivier

[Hannes]

Thanks , dear Olivier !  It´s one of the alterings for the successor version .Drawing 2 is very helpful but we must stay sceptical all the time .

It´s good to know that this N  tube was just some kind of release valve ( thanks to Fred ) , that´s why I will install it  close to

the wall . The successor version doesn´t show the same bodywork as our 806 on it´s left side , ( It has a deep opening  as on the right side  ) that´s why the tank itself and the parts on top of it show a different arrangement . I´m just about to build this tube and I finally recognized  that not a single part of the kit can get used .

Have a good time !   Hannes