Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) I was wondering why my engine used to interfere like that with my bonnets, and I have seen on our Drawing 2 that the gearbox is really very low, much lower than the floor (the floor is at the upper level of the frame, the gearbox goes up a bit under the lower level of the frame). I will have to open still a bit more my floor at the gearbox level, in order this one goes lower. After that, it should be OK, I hope... Edited May 21, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 Using the step plan as set out in my last post, this is what's in the photos we have (excluding Photo 9 HR which also gives a good view). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) My recommendation regarding corrections of the engine / gear box unit ´s height is as follows :Removal of all 4 plastic mounting sticks on the crankshaft case , and replacement by 2 brass tubes at the correct height .I will use 4 brass tubes ( 2 leading through the case and two longer ones leading trough the bigger tubes ) .This way I´m able to correct the horizontal situation too Many greetings ! Hannes. Edited May 21, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 37 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said: I had no idea you did not know this (I mentioned these instructions in the opening post but maybe you forgot or read over it). I'd recommend you to grab a bag of popcorn and enjoy all the high resolution material we have! Thanks a lot, Roy, I had forgotten indeed the way to get them. I would prefer the italian focaccia, but it is very difficult to find, unless you go in Italy... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) In order my crankcase goes lower (see above), I had to do many corrections. First increase still more the window in the floor: N.B: I had to dig a little notch for the spring of the gearbox (step 5) But that was not enough: I found out that the same spring abuted on the A rod of step 1. I had to dig here to a deep notch in the A rod: Here is imho how the crankcase must appear under the underbody: It does not mean all is OK: my engine is still a bit too height in the frontal part and I will have to think about and solve that too... Of course, all the modelers who built that kit "straight from the box" had less problems because they did not decrease deeply the height of the body, bonnets etc. Now, I go to sleep, good night to all... Edited May 21, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) Last update for tonight... Working with the 0,38mm braided steel wire from RB Motion... Super cool stuff this! Much, much nicer than the kit's 1,5mm thick "spring wire". I used small pieces of 1mm aluminium tube (0,8mm inside) to make nice loops. Just flatten the tube a tiny bit, so the 2 cables go in nicely...tighten the loop and squeeze the tube to secure the loop. Cut off the loose end and (keep in mind it's steel!) add a tiny drop of CA glue to make sure it all stays in place. Test fit of the adjusted steering... The steering rod sits as horizontal as possible, no problems with the rear leaf spring mount....can move back and forth without a problem. The cross bar...good height and distance from the radiator cover....can move freely also. The screws are in upside down for ease of dry fitting...must shorten them a bit. Not too bad I think! Must now allign the construction carefully before I glue the 2 15B parts to 30B and 31B. Two more days off...so I can make more progress...must make sure to stay ahead of Olivier! Robin Edited May 21, 2017 by Robin Lous 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Olivier de St Raph said: It does not mean all is OK: my engine is still a bit too height in the frontal part and I will have to think about and solve that too... Of course, all the modelers who built that kit "straight from the box" had less problems because they did not decrease deeply the height of the body, bonnets etc. Now, I go to sleep, good night to all... Edited 1 minute ago by Olivier de St Raph Pfff...not an easy situation Olivier, but I think it's not too bad! I think when you remove the "cross" underneath the engine...you might be able to sink it in. It's now blocking the engine. You can later make new...a bit longer attachment points for the cross. Looks like your radiator won't cause any problems (good news!) and it's not too difficult to lower the magnetos a bit. You probably must change the angle of the steering column also. It's extra work, but it can be done...and you can do it! I've seen you solve greater problems. Take a few days off from the workbench when needed. Edit: When the rod underneath the gear shift causes a problem...cut it short! It serves no real purpose anyway! It's just a fancy..."oh look! I can move the stick!" thing. No drama when that's not possible. Another option is to completely cut off the floor in front of the seat. That's probably how it was anyway. This will show the cross beams and the oil and fuel lines...can add an extra dimension to your build and it solves a problem. Win win situation! Cheer up my friend! We will help you with whatever we can. Robin Edited May 21, 2017 by Robin Lous 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Robin Lous said: Working with the 0,38mm braided steel wire from RB Motion... Robin, that is a great idea that I will follow. I am gonna order this product... Loops are nice too! 9 hours ago, Robin Lous said: Two more days off...so I can make more progress...must make sure to stay ahead of Olivier! Pity, for me, today is a big working (dental) work and tomorrow just a bit less. You'll stay ahead, definitely! 9 hours ago, Robin Lous said: I think when you remove the "cross" underneath the engine. I had precisely the intention to change my cross that was ugly. I am lucky, I have another set, and my next work will be that. I began preparing these parts 108 and 109D early this morning. More as soon as possible... 9 hours ago, Robin Lous said: it's not too difficult to lower the magnetos a bit this won't be necessary, on the contrary, I have now a little more room on top of them, now that my crankcase is well at the right place. 9 hours ago, Robin Lous said: You probably must change the angle of the steering column also. This should not be necessary too, my engine must remain horizontal, so the angle of the steering column won't change. 9 hours ago, Robin Lous said: Take a few days off from the workbench when needed. That's what I'll do indeed, I won't begin another step until I am satisfied with my engine situation. 9 hours ago, Robin Lous said: When the rod underneath the gear shift causes a problem...cut it short! It serves no real purpose anyway! It's just a fancy I could have done that, of course, things would have been easier, but I liked my spring on the crankcase, a nice "fancy"... I have to leave you now, go on my friend, and continue sharing with us your talent and great ideas! Olivier Edited May 22, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Dear Olivier , another measure for making the lowering of the gearbox easier is the removal of the second ( lower )mounting pin for the brake booster wheel on the gearbox. In combination with the removal of the pin and unnecessary material on the wheel itself you couild win about 1,5-2mm more space ! Many greetings ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Dear Hannes, personally, I chose to open a bit more the window for the crankcase but for the servo brake too. So, I did not touch the mounting pins. Robin, could you give me the reference of the 0,38 mm braide steel wire on RB motion, please? If there is another ref. you recommend on this site for another stuff (useful for the build), it would be great to tell me too... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 http://www.rbmotion.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=75&product_id=123 I also got their spark plugs and some other stuff, but most you can find on Knupfer also. Keep in mind high P&P cost and possible import duties when you buy from outside the EU. Delivery time...one week. The wire is worth it! not found elsewhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Thanks a lot, Robin! I am gonna order the spark plugs too, even if I don't think I will change mine on the 806. Maybe for the Mef... Hannes (or Sam), how many spark plugs on the Mef, please? (about that, I forgot to say to you the photos of your Mef last time were great. A very nice work! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 I take advantage of changing my cross rods to improve that part of the kit. Imho, these notches do not exist. The attachment of these rods is one of the best things on the "master model" exposed at Centro Storico - wrong in many aspects furthermore - and that's why I made photos of them. I will inspire myself of that construction for mine, but I am not sure for the metal color. On the photo 3, the attachment seems to be metal, but on the other ones, it seems to be black... Enlargements of the attachment on the C.S 806 build: no notch, but a mounting bracket. Much better than the kit's "solution": 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) Dear Olivier , thanks for your kind words ! If I had to build a new Mef , I would make some things different and maybe better. There were 24 spark plugs , 4 for every of the 6 cylinder. But please watch out : If the spark plugs are too long there won´t be enough space between the single cylinders anymore. That´s the reason I made scratch spark plugs out of tiny tubes , nuts and rivets Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 22, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Olivier, Are you going to model the camber on the front wheels? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) Dear Nick I already asked Olivier and of course he will do . If you look at other Fiat racing cars there is only a slight camber of the front wheels .I´m almost sure that drawing 2 is the very first plan of Fiat where we can see cambered front wheels ! I guess it´s because that extreme cambering . I´m also almost sure that the original plans of our 1500 cmc still showed the front wheels in upright position ! ( very similar to drawing 1 but with the 806 chassis ) Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 22, 2017 by Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) First of all, I want to express here my solidarity again with the British people, struck again by an awful attempt at Manchester. Difficult to come-back to our subject in such circumstances, but life goes on, this life terrorists hate, this life we do love... Dear Nick, as an answer, these 2 photos showing how I get my cambered wheels: I made a cut at the red arrow level, and put a drop of cyano in the cut. Dry fit assembly: the camber may seem excessive, but take in consideration that the weight of my model, xeighted down by the presence of the driver in resin: P.S: Thanks Hannes for the hints about the Mef spark plugs. Edited May 23, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) Since I found photo's of cars with "partial" connector wire tubes...I continued making them. Still not sure I'll use them, but this is how they can be used. There's room between these tubes and the plumbing on top of the engine. A mechanic can replace the plugs with a spark plug wrench without a problem. Some risk of burning his hands when the engine is hot though. Again...nut sure about using them...what do you guys think? The brake line attachment blocks can be seen on photo 3...good kit parts! Seemingly painted black with some wear on the edges and the adjustment knobs. I used steel pigment powder from Vallejo for this. Much nicer than drybrushing with paint imho. And to avoid being chased out of town...I also camber the front wheels. A different approach... A disk in between 15B and 139D...from 1,5mm on top to almost nothing on the bottom will provide the camber. The thin (why...oh why?) wheel axle will be cut off near the base and I'll replace it with a brass tube with a M2 bolt to attach the wheel. All a bit longer to make up for the added thickness of the brake drums (135D)....see photo 21. The added width will make up for the cambering...without, the track of the front wheels will be too narrow. A matching nut inside the hubs to make them workable. Hope this explanation makes sense More soon, Robin Edited May 23, 2017 by Robin Lous 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) Dear Robin , because not a single photo of our engine still exists ( besides this 2-cylinder unit in Rogliatti´s article ) we cannot definitely say , if there were tubes or not. The predecessor 8- cylinders most likely did not have tubes for the ignition wires imho. There´s a photo of an 403 engine in Sebastien´s book - no tubes. On the engine drawings no tubes can be seen , but that does not mean there were none Many greetings ! Hannes. Edited May 23, 2017 by Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Well...tubes or no tubes, I dont like the look of them on this engine, so I won't use them. Half a day work for nothing, but I was curious about them, so I just had to check. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) Dear Robin , another topic : These trident-star shaped adjustment knobs seemed to be polished or chromed imho for the race as we can see on photo 9 for instance . I guess this was made when giving the grille frame a chromium look.And there are holes in their centers ! Even if we cannot see the blocks on drawing 5 they also should be red imho , because the artist would have painted this spot different , if they were black imho Hannes Edited May 23, 2017 by Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Dear Hannes, I disagree about chrome (makes no sense to chrome those parts) and even polishing I find highly unlikely. When I look at photo 7A (unedited) only the 3 small knobs stand out. Keep in mind, bare metal reflect more light, so it looks much brighter than it is. Wet conditions, poor light, possible grease or oil spill can make it look even more "shiny". A dark surrounding makes something light stand out even more. Example.... Same part....the insert is a photo outside.....it's a very bright day. The other...inside with poor light. All the sudden the worn off paint looks far brighter! Robin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy vd M. Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 I have to agree with Robin here. For photographing my practice work on aluminium parts it is often impossible to use the standard iPhone settings. I will have to adjust the iPhone camera settings or else all you see is a blob of shiny metal that looks like chrome or shiny silver. Even blocking the natural or artificial light won't help. I also think (although we can never know for sure) that there would have been little use for Fiat to chrome these parts. It would have only have added to the weight and would have also cost extra. Even on the Delage 15-S-8, a car that was intended to not only be fast but also look exquisite (and developed by a race team who had a much larger budget than Fiat), there was very little chrome. On that car you can see proof of weight reduction everywhere, even in the tiniest of details. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I also spoke about polishing . As I said before drawing 5 as a contemporary painting for me is the main reference regarding colors and textures . And there are apparently bright parts as the artist saw it imho on the original car . The frame for the grille also was made a bit heavier imho just for optical reasons ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) When we look better at photo 9....the bright look likely comes from light coloured road dirt. Look at the tires and bottom of the car for instance. Compare the dull grey we see on the triangular handles, the tires, bottom and side of the car with the bare metal steering rod. The steering rod looks far more reflective. A quick soil study of the region Geology and morphology: Quaternary alluvial and glacio-fluvial deposits. Level land, mean altitude: 95 meters above sea level (standard deviation 110), mean slope: 1% (std 5). Main soils: soils with pedogenetic structure in depth and weakly differentiated profile (Eutric, Chromic and Calcaric Cambisols); recent alluvial soils (Eutric and Calcaric Fluvisols); soils with reorganization of carbonates (Haplic Calcisols); soils decarbonated and rich in iron oxides, with clay accumulation along the profile (Haplic, Gleyic and Chromic Luvisol); sandy and weakly developed soils (Calcaric Arenosols and Regosols); soils with vertic properties and reorganization of carbonates (Gleyic and Vertic Cambisols, Eutric, Gypsic and Calcic Vertisols); more or less shallow soils on limestone with organic matter accumulation (Rendzic Leptosols; Calcaric Phaeozems); soils with shallow water table (Eutric Gleysols; Thionic Fluvisols and Cambisols); soils with organic matter accumulation (Ombric and Thionic Histosols). Edited May 23, 2017 by Robin Lous 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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