Hannes Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) Dear Nick , I´m aware that the inner edges align on drawing 2 . But as you mentioned above there are sometimes differences regarding theory and reality . I don´t think it´s a sign of draughtsman´s laziness if he had to draw these spokes again instead of showing only 2 slanted fasteners from above .If you look at drawing 1 , in my opinion a drawing of an early state of our car , you will see different wheel tracks even if all 4 wheels stand upright Maybe the draughtsman used another plan under his opaque paper and made this error by copying . What I mean by that is as follows.: The draughtsman used a plan of our car under his drawing paper . On other Fiat plans regarding other racing cars you never can see cambered front wheels ! This means , the cambering was not represented and was left for the engineers and mechanics. If a drawing of our car was the pattern for drawing 2 , the situation of the fasteners could be right regarding our car ! Of course I cannot completely exclude that the tracks are the same , but I will stay sceptical till I know for sure . Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 18, 2017 by Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Some problems with the PC , therefore two times , sorry Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickD Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Hannes, We may never know. I am not sure we have enough reliable photos of the car to definitively say what the track was. I can get the geometry to align-ish but I have to assume the track is a particular value. I suspect that if I made different assumptions I would still be able to get it to align-ish. You pays your money, you makes your choice - as they say. I will I think assume the track is the same front and rear, at the ground. I will of course proceed with your warning in my head. If I change my mind I will certainly let you know. However, puppy is still taking a lot of time so progress is very slow. ATB Nick 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Like Olivier..I'm working on the forward suspension, but it seems I lost one of the forward leaf springs. I contacted Italeri...and now I need to wait for a replacement. While doing that, I won't sit on my hands and do nothing, so I started working on the bonnet. Pretty good kit parts, but they can use some extra love for sure. Many slots are completely closed...and others only partly open....work to do! To open closed slots I carefully made a small hole with a sharp blade. Just enough to get a pointy micro saw in (photo etched steel...super thin saw blades). With this saw it's very easy to completely open the slots....when done I used thin strips of 600 grade sandpaper to neatly widen and clean the slots. Before and after. And the hinges.... I got myself a 30cm long piano hinge from Knupfer for this. I removed the ugly raised and not working hinges from the kit's part. To get a nice...almost level hinge I put 0,5mm Evergreen strips between the hinge and the hood. This is just a test fit...the strips can be more narrow and I also must narrow the brass hinges a bit, so they won't block the slots. To make ik work smoothly, I'll replace the steel rod with a somewhat thinner rod, so opening and closing without force. I must still dryfit the bonnet with these new hinges to the body and radiator...maybe I need to sand off a bit on the top of each half, because the new hinge sits in between instead of...on top. Hope this is useful information...and I hope it made some sense. Darn lost leaf spring! ...ah well, more soon! Robin 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Great work again , dear Robin ! And a very interesting solution for the hinges . I still remember the opening of my Protar louvres with a cut off iron-saw blade that was filed and sanded slimmer at it´s beginning ! It took ages and my black fingers were hurting after a while. Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Dear Robin , if Italeri does not send you that leaf spring ,I´ll send you mine. I don´t need them anyway ( especially the front leaf springs with their odd " trident " ) because I will use metal strips for a small scratchbuild.Just send a mail to our internal thread ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Thanks a lot Hannes! But...I just found it! I found an easy way to lower both steering rods (parts 16B and 17B) by about 3,5mm. Perhaps with some careful bending a little bit more. Not looking forward to scratchbuild new parts to replace both 15B parts, so I try to avoid that! More soon, Robin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 A very clever solution ! This could be helpful for Olivier too ! Hannes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Waaooh, guys, you made very good job in a few time, thank you, this will be very helpful for me indeed. Pity, I couldn't go on much these last days, too busy... But I will study all that as soon as possible. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Today I made a decision regarding my chassis rails. I will replace the rear parts ( beginning where the buckles and the bolts for main strut 2 are situated ), by brass parts. Because there are no alignements regarding mounting points anymore , the new rail parts will give me the opportunity to drill holes on my Proxxon boring mill while these parts are still straight.( and glued together for a while ) This way I will get correct holes exactly on the opposite sides . Because the drilled channels will not be on a straight line anymore after bending these parts , I will use a small drill first and make corrections by a greater drill later on. This measure will also give me the opportunity to give my chassis the correct shape . As you can see on Nick´s side-view the upper sides of the rear rails are straight but at the downside there´s a buckle starting where the cross-beam for the frontal rear leaf-spring ´s suspensions is situated. The consequence will be altering measures regarding these triangular parts which support the last cross-beam. It won´t be easy to realize these plans , but this measure allows me to avoid unwanted compromises. Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 20, 2017 by Hannes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 On 18/05/2017 at 11:49 PM, Robin Lous said: I got myself a 30cm long piano hinge from Knupfer for this. very nice work on the bonnets louvres and the hinges, Robin! What diameter of piano hinge did you use, please? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) There have been discussions already in the gangshow regarding this crescent -shaped " blue moon " lever . John believed at that time that the top-view of drawing 2 shows this part correctly and a foresighting effect was the reason for it´s shortened appearance. I highly doubt this because it does not match with the photos where we can see this part imho. Everybody could check this out by cutting out a cardboard pattern of this part. You never will see a sharp turn like on top-view of drawing 2 . In my opinion it´s a different lever we can see on drawing 2 and it was an improvement measure . As we know today the steering system of the front axle was responsible for the jumping left front wheel and it makes sense that some parts were ( virtual ) exchanged according Massimino´s calculations. Many greetings ! Hannes Edited May 20, 2017 by Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said: very nice work on the bonnets louvres and the hinges, Robin! What diameter of piano hinge did you use, please? Thanks Olivier! They're about 1,8mm. Probably still oversized, but with the Evergreen "trick" they won't stick out too much. All I need to build the suspension... Waiting for varnish on some parts to dry, so maybe tonight I can start on this jigsaw puzzle. More soon, Robin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Ok...more... The axle, leaf springs and dampers. 35 plastic kit parts, 24 screws and bolts and 24 extra (mainly scrap PE) parts on the leaf springs. Wasn't shake and bake, but not too hard either....the parts all fit amazingly well. More soon, Robin 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Dear Robin , very neat and good looking ! But I must say , I don´t like the trident construction of the leaf springs . It´s an invention of Italeri ( not Protar ) to prevent the leaf-spring`s end from breaking apart. There´s a simple solution for that problem imho. After removing this phantasy cramp you could glue a small strip of a 0,1 mm thin brass foil on the downside of the springs ! ( after filing and sanding at this place a bit ) This way you will get an invisible stable construction ! Many greetings ! Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harveyb258 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 I think that the designers of this kit were living in "cloud cuckoo land" to be honest, but, hey, it's given this wonderful topic a life of it's own......even Fiat will be following this! Great work Robin btw Cheers, H 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Hannes said: I don´t like the trident construction of the leaf springs . It´s an invention of Italeri ( not Protar ) to prevent the leaf-spring`s end from breaking apart Dear Hannes, personally, I can't see on any of our documents the shape of the front leaf spring rear part. Is there this trident? for me, up to now, impossible to say. The front leaf spring is not drawn on drawing 2, so, how do you know this shape is wrong? On another question, I agree with you, I think it is impossible to use the part 30B (step 21), if we want to reproduce this crescent shape, no other solution than scratch... But, as you said in your nice drawing above, we need to find out the lenght, shape and angles of the steering lever system. And it is where things become not simple. We have the photos 7, 12 and 20, that may be useful for sure, but there will be a part of approximation... Edited May 21, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) I have finally tried to use 30B and modify it, by heating (with care) and bending, and then by making little notches with the blade, to get the crescent shape required. The part has been also thinned, it was very thick while we can see on our photos that it is very thin. I will fill my notches with cyano, used here as a filler. The front part of the lever was imho too short. I have extended it with plastic card: Edited May 21, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph add 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 I'm not sure that the 'trident' fitting would actually work on a real car. The action of the springs relies on the ends being firmly fixed to the chassis and the leaves sliding over each other with the wheel mounting point remaining fixed in position, just moving up and down with the spring action With that 'trident' arrangement one end of the springs would slide in and out of that chassis piece and there would be no encouragement for the leaves to slide against each other. It would also cause the wheel mounting point to move forwards and backwards with little up and down movement Leaf springs not only absorb and limit the upwards movement of the wheel over bumps but also press the wheel downwards for firm contact with the road surface When a car with leaf springs is lifted up off the road its wheels will drop by about 75mm or more, this is how much the springs will compress by the weight of the car to keep the wheels in contact with the road 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) Still working on this area: many modif had to be done to get something acceptable: - the screw 08 was kept (without nut at its bottom) but shortened ((it was 19 mm, it is now 12,5 mm...) - the vertical rod, composed of parts from 4A, 15B and 30B, has been shortened too: 4A was kept unchanged, the rod of 15B is now 6,9 mm height (Robin did the same) and the one of 30B (initially 5 mm, is now only 1 mm!) - the steering lever was improved (see above) and was separated from the vertical rod, to put it more frontally. Moreover, I added 4 mm lenght to the horizontal part of 4A. Indeed, I made a dry fit assembly of that set and the frame was too narrow to allow the passage of the Hartford shock absorbers. That said, as I wanted to increase this lenght, it' a kind of a good thing. Now, I have 4 mm more on my front axle (99 mm) than on my rear one (95 mm)... Edited May 21, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally Mad Olivier Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 53 minutes ago, Black Knight said: I'm not sure that the 'trident' fitting would actually work on a real car. The action of the springs relies on the ends being firmly fixed to the chassis and the leaves sliding over each other with the wheel mounting point remaining fixed in position, just moving up and down with the spring action With that 'trident' arrangement one end of the springs would slide in and out of that chassis piece and there would be no encouragement for the leaves to slide against each other. It would also cause the wheel mounting point to move forwards and backwards with little up and down movement It is true that it is a curious shape, this trident... I wonder where Protar designers found that... It is a pity that we have no picture at all of the rear part of these front leaf springs. In the lack of infos, I will probably modify them, considering this shape was very unprobable, as Hannes suggested... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannes Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Dear Olivier , as I said above , the Protar designers are not to blame for this nonsense . Italeri did this to prevent a single plastic leaf from breaking . In the Protar kit there were iron strips included for constructing more realistic leaf springs as you could see on the first pages of the gangshow thread Hannes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Lous Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) Thanks guys! I agree about the leaf springs being odd and what I've seen on the (few) photo's showing the rear attachment...no trident to be seen. The most simple solution...just chop them off...a new lick of paint and done. Olivier, the new lever looks spot on! (I won't do that). Furthermore....note the absence of the radiator. I'm waiting for more Aber S-10 mesh. When I get it I'll modify the radiator to make it wider. Room for 2mm each side to make it sit flush in the casing. I'll also replace the brass painted front edge with blackened and polished (gives a nice patina) real brass. When I do this I can replace the stretched "15" with the realistic version of it. Imho the odd stretched "15" is the single most obvious and annoying wrong of this kit and since it's fairly easy to fix...I'll fix it. While waiting for the mesh, I'll continue with the front suspension. I can now also touch up the engine. Question: the brake handle...the grip....was this wood? Edit: This photo shows the red I used nicely...as it is (for a change). More soon, Robin Edited May 21, 2017 by Robin Lous 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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