Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

I like the D color  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

20 hours ago, Hannes said:

 

On photo 3 the relevant region inside the fairing is darkened by the shadow. Olivier showed us the limit imho on his second photo.

 

I must say I am not totally convinced, about this sheet. If it exists, it is really very very thin. Up to now, there is no evidence for me, despite Hannes excellent drawing, and, unless we have more certainty, I personally won't make it.

I am with my family transiting at Paris, waiting for the 2nd flight that will bring us to Nice. As you can see, I go on the thread as soon as I have 5mn...

Roy, Nick, Harvey, Sam, CC, what is your opinion about this sheet Hannes sees between the heating shield and the body?

Edited January 2, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
Correction

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , as I said before , I´m also not convinced with 100 per cent. In situations like this I always try to imagine I was the engineer to whom was given the order:Construct a heat-shield that´s effective ,easy to fix and to remove ,highly stable and light in weight and it should not deform the hull of the bodywork. Seen from that point of view my idea could make sense.

Further research required... Hannes

[harveyb258]

Quote

53 minutes ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

, what is your opinion about this sheet Hannes sees between the heating shield and the body?

 

Dear Olivier, I have already made my opinion known on this subject on the previous page.....I see no suspension sheet, just a U-shape that had to be fixed from inside the cockpit. I think I made an error of judgement concerning the adjustment to the rear of the shield, I was trying to "see" more than what there is!

 

Cheers, H

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Sébastien Faures has replied to me by mail today (I was expecting this reply). He prefers us to communicate  by phone. I will try to call him this evening.

So Roy, if you don't mind, I will go on being the main interlocutor for now, contrarily to what I suggested above.

Please recall me all questions you want to ask him.

Anyway, he is very kind and interested by our researchs and, if all questions are not asked today, no problem, I will contact him again in the next days for further ones

Edited January 2, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Hannes]

I will visit Mr. Laube in the next days  , a man who already buildt several aluminium bodyworks for vintage racing cars and will ask his opinion regarding this topic.  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I will also try to contact the Rev's library by mail...

[Hannes]

Mrs . Piccini did not yet send me the high-res version of photo 9. I already paid at the 22. of December. Does sombody know something about this ? Maybe she´s in vacancies ?  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

16 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

 "A" is the closest to what i know about the original rosso corsa ( slightly slightly lighter, more vibrant, like the red in the Italian flag)

 

I like that color too. 

 

16 hours ago, Hannes said:

I like the D color  Hannes

 

It seems that Italeri picked a similar color for their intensively photoshopped box art model.

 

3 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Sébastien Faures (...)

Please recall me all questions you want to ask him.

 

My questions:

 

1. You sent me a photo of the car seen almost from upfront, Bordino looking right:

 

 

 

That is a very useful photograph. Unfortunately it is a photo of a photograph, flash can be seen in the bottom left corner and the bottom right corner is distorted. It would be very helpful to us if you could scan this photo and send it to us. 

 

2. In what book or magazine did you find this photo? (Title / author / isbn?). Does it contain more photos of the car? Or other info / measurements?

 

3. You sent us a copy of an article called "Will the Fiats return" from The Light Car and Cyclecar magazine of 19 August 1927. In that article there is a small photo of the Fiat 806. Could you make a scan of the article page, so that we'll have available a version of that photo that is as large and high-resolution as possible? 

 

 

 

4. You sent me two excerpts from Italian books. The first is from the book 'Automobili Fiat' by A. Tito Anselmi. Unfortunately part of the first page wasn't scanned or photographed. Could you send us the remainder?

 

 

 

5. Does this book have only two pages on the Fiat 806? Or are there more?

 

6. Do you have any idea how the author on what source the author would have based its info on tyre size front and aft, brand of carburators (Bosch) and brand of magnetos (Memini)? 

 

7. You sent me excerpt of another book, also in Italian, with a list of information on the car that almost perfectly matches Anselmi's book. What is the titel of this book, what's the author and when was it published? What is the ISBN?

 

 

 

8. Does this book also have only two pages dedicated to the Fiat 806? 

 

2 hours ago, Hannes said:

Mrs . Piccini did not yet send me the high-res version of photo 9. I already paid at the 22. of December. Does sombody know something about this ? Maybe she´s in vacancies ?  Hannes

 

Hannes the last two weeks of December are always the busiest for most businesses. I also didn't hear from Cinecitta Luce anymore. Have you already sent her another mail? 

 

I have refrained from reminding all the contacts ('loose ends') during the last two weeks because I don't want to rush or annoy them. I'll contact them this week or the next. 

[CrazyCrank]

5 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

I must say I am not totally convinced, about this sheet. If it exists, it is really very very thin. Up to now, there is no evidence for me, despite Hannes excellent drawing, and, unless we have more certainty, I personally won't make it.

I am with my family transiting at Paris, waiting for the 2nd flight that will bring us to Nice. As you can see, I go on the thread as soon as I have 5mn...

Roy, Nick, Harvey, Sam, CC, what is your opinion about this sheet Hannes sees between the heating shield and the body?

 

I understand why Hannes think there's a suspension metal sheet between the car's body and the heat shield, and his explanations about what would have built an engeener, but, even after a full inspection of all photos, am still not convinced, because I've not found any evidence.

I would have thought that Harvey's drawing is probably the right description of the fixing system, and, unless i'm given evidence of the contrary, it's the way i've planned to build it.

 

Concerning the colours offered by Roy, I'm voting for A red

 

 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

5 hours ago, harveyb258 said:

Dear Olivier, I have already made my opinion known on this subject on the previous page.....I see no suspension sheet, just a U-shape that had to be fixed from inside the cockpit.

Yes, Harvey, you are right, excuse me, and I agree with you to say there is probably (let's be careful) no suspension sheet.

[Black Knight]

I don't need a heat shield on my cars.

On cars in my club which do they use a spacer tube between the shield and the car body. The mounting bolt - a coach bolt - goes thru the heat shield metal thru the spacer tube, thru the car body and a washer & nut fixes it.

[Hannes]

Dear Fred , that´s the solution I also would prefer if there´s a steel bodywork and enough space between the exhaust pipe and the bodywork.Of course I can´t exclude this kind of solution.

If the screws / bolts were welded to the shield it also could get fixed and removed quickly.

As I mentioned before , I will ask an expert for aluminium bodyworks about this topic and I hope , we will know more soon.  Many greetings !  Hannes

[Hannes]

Sorry , no screws in this case ,only bolts of course !  Hannes

[NickD]

My Opinion, for what it's worth and it is no more than an opinion:

 

Heat shield - There appears to be an edge at the front and the rear to me. The front could just be the edge of the heatshield itself. The rear on goes up to the rear cushion. It looks to me that there is a similar line below the exhaust. Could that be the edge of the sheet used to form the tail. Afterall one sheet for the whole body would be a bit difficult to manage. Does not appear to be any rivets though (but I am Mef-calibrated which has proper steam-punk rivets. The 806 was a much more subtle creation). So my vote would be for a heat shield that is attached directly to the car side with a wire-re-enforced edge. This is both lighter and simpler - both plus' on a race car.

 

Colour - I like the vibrancy of C but I think I would paint it E. All the pictures are so dark. No other logic. Only other thought is it is much darker than cars 14 and 24.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[sharknose156]

IMHO there is no suspension shield. This racing car was supposed to be very light. So it would have been superfluous to place a shield when good bolting would do the job. Hannes you want to build a Mercedes i think. 

[Hannes]

Ha ha ,that´s funny , as it seems both fractions are right and wrong too !

Today I was visiting Mr. Laube and asked about his opinion regarding our heat shield.He replied , he already did build  some heat shields and knows about the problems in combination with an aluminium bodywork.

.

First of all we were talking about the shield´s material. He said ,these shields were made out of aluminium too ! (of course steel-sheet versions also were made )

The shield needs a stable under-construction in his opinion. In our case it means ,at the frontal and the rear end of the shield there are two stable U-shaped strips of metal  with two holes for the bolts.

The shield ( also with two holes ) is " sandwiched"  between the bearing strips and the body panel.

Inside the panel two strenghtening sheets were required ( not washers ! ) As he said if there were no sheets , the vibrations would rip the aluminium apart .!

 

Another subject we were talking about was the wrapping of exhaust pipes and leaf springs ,In his opinion only the pipes were wrapped , not the springs.

Mr Laube also visited our thread .I believe , his English might be not that good , but he spoke about our " beautiful pictures "

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Hannes]

I forgot to mention .: The bolt ´s heads could have been welded with the U-shaped strips  and this way an easy fixation could be possible. And of course washers over the strenghtening sheets aslo would make sense imho.  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

Good to have this extra information Hannes... unfortunately again I think I'll need to read through your explanation a couple of times before I can visualize it. For example when you say 'u-shaped' that could mean the U straight, or U upside down, or U sideways etc. etc. You're trying to explain something threedimensional in words which is hard to do and even harder to follow. I'd appreciate it if you again showed a drawing of your thesis. 

 

 

On a different note, let's have a look at how close the amended Drawing 2 gets to reality. Compare:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: only thing obviously wrong is the body lining @ cockpit. That's my mistake, sorry. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Roy vd M.

[Hannes]

Dear Roy ,I´ll try to make a drawing as soon as possible. My daughter and my grandchildren from the USA are on visit here in Germany so it could possibly take a while.

My bodywork´s construction including the fairing is also advanced  ( about 95 per cent ) so I could show some pictures in the next 1-2 weeks.(the last 5 per cent always need a lot of time )

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello to all,

I am back home since yesterday evening, and I was pleased to find back my Fiat.

In the evening, I called Sébastien. The conversation lasted 1 hour, and then his phone cut (he was out of battery). I have not time now, but, as soon as possible, I will post his replies to our questions.

All the best

Edited January 3, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
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[Hannes]

[Black Knight]

A coachbolt's construction is such that you don't need to weld it to the metal.

It has a domed head, with a square shank under that before the thread starts. When you drll the hole to clear the thread you draw the square section into the metal which then locks it into place to prevent the bolt turning.

The washers I/we use on the thin metal are called 'penny washers'; a standard M6 washer is about 10mm diameter, a 'penny washer' is from 25 to 50mm diameter. It does the job of both a re-enforcement plate and washer; it spreads the pull-load very well.

I can't do photos of these until Thursday at the earliest.

 

PS; there really should be a gap between the heat shield and the bodywork, even just a couple of millimeters. The exhaust gets very hot; the shield gets very hot and can heat or burn the bodywork or paint. The air gap prevents this.

[Black Knight]

I found some parts to photograph;

An M6 x 25mm Coach Bolt. It has a rounded domed head, nothing for a screwdriver or spanner to grip. If you see this sort with a screwdriver slot in the head that is a Roofing Bolt. You can see the square part of the shank; this locks into the hole to prevent it turning whilst you tighten the nut. Fitted properly that square is almost as good as welding it. And of course easier and quicker to use on aluminium car bodies. We use these where a tidy finish is wanted, eg to hold wings to wing supports when the bolt head is outside and on top, or where we cannot get a spanner into to put on the head; just like on the 806 heat shield.

 

Washers; all are for M6 bolts, on the left, a standard M6 washer, approx 12.5mm diameter, two on the right are 'penny washers' aka 'repair' washers, middle one is approx 25mm diameter, the last is approx 30mm diameter. I have these up to around 50mm diameter. The large washers spread the load, just in the way your coachbuilder uses a plate. I'm surpised he doesn't use these. We use them as a matter of course [standard] when fitting anything to our Austin car bodies.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Hello to all,

 

Some of you know I have taken advantage of my travel in Florida to go visiting the Rev's institute at Naples. It is a very impressive museum and a research institute on all what concerns cars. They have through others (many wonderful Porsche), a Bugatti T35 (1st photo showing the engine) and the Delage that won the Italian G.P, while our 806 won the same day on the same circuit (Monza) the Milano G.P. The Delage was in the garage, being probably prepared for the soon Retromobile show at Paris (february). Even if these cars are different from our one, they have similitudes and may be inspiring for some details, such as the underbody bonnets. Enjoy!

 

Bugatti T 35 engine: notice through others the tube in which runs the ignition wiring...

 

 

 

The Delage in the garage:

 

Bonnet of the Delage:

 

 

A useful photo if, like me, you intend to open one of the bonnets. Notice the steel aspect of the inside. We can suppose it was a little the same on the 806...

 

 

 

I like this one too. But do you think there were these thin copper wires on the 806??

 

 

Rear leaf springs:

 

Pilot seat and inside details (the one we miss in the 806...):

 

 

P.S: I am gonna contact the library manager of this institute, I hope he will have good things for us... But Sebstien Faures doesn(t think so... So, don't hope to much... Anyway, we must try, and never know...

 

 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
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