MigModeller Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Hi all Print Scale do attractive decals for Mig-17 without mentioning the exact variant they are destined for. https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/PSL72008 Please any recommendations for a Mig-17 kit in 1/72 scale? In particular the Egyptian version? Are there any pics on the internet that will assist? Thanks in anticipation. M.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Hi M.M. Those guys at Hannants got it wrong, those green-white-black roundels with three red stars are actually for Syria. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Hi! Syrian MiG is one of two MiG-17Fs, which got lost and whose pilots had been tricked by Arab speaking Israeli flight controllers into landing on Israeli airstrip. However, decals represent previous Syrian national markings which had been, by the time of the incident, long since replaced by red-white-black roundels of United Arab Republic. On following link you will find one of the photos of the actual aircraft, now in IAF museum: https://www.flickr.com/photos/gerrit_kok_collection/16161816268 There is plenty more photos and colour profiles on the web, just type something like ˝Syria MiG-17 1033 Israel˝ into your browser. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Egypt (and Syria too) have used both the mainstream (MiG-15 nose/afterburner tail) MiG-17F and all-weather MiG-17PF. Regardless of the variant you'd like to build the AZ MiG-17s (both noses, six boxings so far) are the only 72nd scale Frescos worth bothering with. Avoid both Hasegawa and (old) KzP kits that are out of scale and shape. Dragon/Italeri MiG-17F is a little better, but far behind the AZ (and there's no PF-nose by Italeri or Dragon). Cheers Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procopius Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 13 minutes ago, KRK4m said: Dragon/Italeri MiG-17F is a little better, but far behind the AZ (and there's no PF-nose by Italeri or Dragon). Awww, dammit, really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_c67 Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Aren't Trumpeter coming out with one soon as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAGATIGER Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Hi there Please notice that the AZ model kits also have PF issue Best modeling Armando Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenton guy Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 The AZ kit is the way to go, but there does seem to be a problem. Based on most published dimensions and the original Detail and scale plans (published in D&S #1) the AZ kit is over span. The Dragon span is just right--a case for cross kitting. Both may have slight wing sweep errors but nothing that serious, in my view. Why is a fully accurate MiG-17 the impossible dream. Come on Eduard!! ps. I believe the Trumpeter plan is for a MiG-19,sorely needed as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris57 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Mig 17/Lim 5 decals I have accumulated:- HDL 72-030 Fresco A, Soviet, East German, Mongolian, Royal Afghan, Iraqi 72-035 Fresco C/Lim 5 Polish x2, Egyptian x2, Israeli, Angolan Decals Carpena (Colarado) 72-43 Mig 17F Madagascar, Vietnam, Cambodia, Mozambique, Angola 72-44 Mig 17F Moroccan, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, Soviet, Polish. Mig 17PF Soviet Blue Rider BR219 Mig 17F Albania DP Casper 72-013 Mig 17F Syria, United Arab, Mig 17PF United Arab Kanga 72-020 Mig 17PF Soviet, Algeria, Mongolia, Syria, Iraq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 22 hours ago, Procopius said: Awww, dammit, really? Actually, nobody is perfect!(MiG-17 Bilek (Dragon) vs AZ model. Yes the text in Russian, but images are clear also without the translation!) http://scalemodels.ru/articles/3811-sravnitelnyjj-obzor-mig-17-Bilek-i-AZmodel-1-72.html B.R. Serge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMB Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 I have a Dragon MiG-17F kit and the Hi-Decal 72-030 decal sheet with Soviet, East German, Mongolian, Royal Afghan and Iraqi markings available. PM me if you are interested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacarre Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) Post error Edited November 17, 2016 by Jacarre Post error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacarre Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I have some doubts in respect of the accuracy of the AZ offering. The russian forum has a great analysis in the Aadvark's link: The fuselage appears to much long and a little wide and the vertical surfaces are more larger than this drawing The wings are more larger, but this is workable in my humble opinion. The Dragon offering fuselage is more shorter tha drawing and the fuselage is a little too narrow Yeah, is another version (without afterburner, Dragon makes two versions) but is a good reference. Anyone has more info about dimensions of the kit and the real deal? Regards, Javier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 On 18.11.2016 at 0:13 AM, Jacarre said: Anyone has more info about dimensions of the kit and the real deal? Regards, Javier Info about dimensions of the real deal: Link* for download in format "djvu" : https://yadi.sk/d/HkzMJ4JHNvWLp B.R. Serge ____________________ *-This technical edition intended for pilots and technicians of the real plane therefore it can't be considered as the commercial edition. Copyright of this edition if was that belonged to the USSR which is absent any more. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacarre Posted December 7, 2016 Share Posted December 7, 2016 On 19-11-2016 at 1:24 PM, Aardvark said: Info about dimensions of the real deal: Link* for download in format "djvu" : https://yadi.sk/d/HkzMJ4JHNvWLp B.R. Serge ____________________ *-This technical edition intended for pilots and technicians of the real plane therefore it can't be considered as the commercial edition. Copyright of this edition if was that belonged to the USSR which is absent any more. Thanks Serge, in regards of this dimensions, which one is more accurate? Dragon or AZ? Regards., Javier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) Some 30 years ago, when I was heading the Polish Aviation Museum at Krakow, the well-known Polish researcher and modeller Marian Gibas asked me about the possibility of making definitive scale drawings of MiG-15 and -17 using the plethora of specimen (Soviet-, Czech- and Polish-built) kept within the museum collection. At last I managed to contact him and here are the results. The drawings are scanned from the originals (1:24) scaled to 1:72nd scale. If you copy and print them in this size they should be exactly 1:72 (MiG-15 span and length should be 140 mm, MiG-17F length should be 154 mm and wing span 134 mm). Putting the Eduard MiG-15 against these drawings show only one minor fault - the MiG-15bis (i.e. later ones, finned, not flush-fitting) underwing fuel tanks are just 5% undersized. I had not measured Airfix ones, but these offered by Hobby Boss do fit spot-on. Unfortunately I don't have the Dragon/Italeri MiG-17 in my stash*, but the AZ MiG-17F looks decent. The only faults are: fuselage 3mm too long (forward of the split frame it should be identical to MiG-15, here it's 2mm too long between the canopy tail and the split frame and 1 mm between the split frame and fin leading edge), too pointed wing trailing edge outer ends (the radius of curvature is too small, you can correct it with a file), opposite fault at tailplane trailing edge outer end (here the radius is too big, they should be more pointed, but I can live with this) and (AGAIN :)) undersized auxiliary fuel tanks. Both wing and tailplane (span, sweep, chord and area-wise) are correct. Note that MiG-17F and -17PF do differ not only in front fuselage and windshield area. Also the fin panelling and rear underfuselage keel are different. In my opinion the drawings linked by Aardvark show MiG-17 fin height being identical to MiG-15. In reality - although having the same sweep (a fact that most MiG-15 kit manufacturers had ignored in the past) - they do differ 95 mm in height above the tailplane. Cheers Michael * look at the 2019 posts down in the same topic Edited February 2, 2020 by KRK4m pictures added again 9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 On 08.12.2016 at 0:27 AM, Jacarre said: Thanks Serge, in regards of this dimensions, which one is more accurate? Dragon or AZ? Regards., Javier I don't know because I have no Dragon any more, and AZ-models* not yet!😋 В.R. Serge P.S. Javier, but if you so want to make model MiG-17, it is: http://walkarounds.scalemodels.ru/v/walkarounds/avia/after_1950/mig-17f/ http://walkarounds.scalemodels.ru/v/walkarounds/avia/after_1950/m-17/ http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_9857.html possible will help you?😉 ______________________________ *-however probably will also not be though the model is from me within walking distance in our local model shop. Just MiG-17 is not that plane which will remain only in models from the Dragon and AZ -models! Somebody will make high-quality model MiG-17 sooner or later! So why to spend money for low-quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Excellent drawings, Michael - thank you for sharing them here! There's always an element of suspicion regarding accuracy of any drawing, but knowing the origin and author of these ones makes them golden, in my book! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacarre Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 On 15-01-2017 at 0:22 PM, KRK4m said: Some 30 years ago, when I was heading the Polish Aviation Museum at Krakow, the well-known Polish researcher and modeller Marian Gibas asked me about the possibility of making definitive scale drawings of MiG-15 and -17 using the plethora of specimen (Soviet-, Czech- and Polish-built) kept within the museum collection. At last I managed to contact him and here are the results. The drawings are scanned from the originals (1:24) scaled to 1:72nd scale. If you copy and print them in this size they should be exactly 1:72 (MiG-15 span and length should be 140 mm, MiG-17F length should be 154 mm and wing span 134 mm). Putting the Eduard MiG-15 against these drawings show only one minor fault - the MiG-15bis (i.e. later ones, finned, not flush-fitting) underwing fuel tanks are just 5% undersized. I had not measured Airfix ones, but these offered by Hobby Boss do fit spot-on. Unfortunately I don't have the Dragon/Italeri MiG-17 in my stash, but the AZ MiG-17F looks decent. The only faults are: fuselage 3mm too long (forward of the split frame it should be identical to MiG-15, here it's 2mm too long between the canopy tail and the split frame and 1 mm between the split frame and fin leading edge), too pointed wing trailing edge outer ends (the radius of curvature is too small, you can correct it with a file), opposite fault at tailplane trailing edge outer end (here the radius is too big, they should be more pointed, but I can live with this) and (AGAIN :)) undersized auxiliary fuel tanks. Both wing and tailplane (span, sweep, chord and area-wise) are correct. Note that MiG-17F and -17PF do differ not only in front fuselage and windshield area. Also the fin panelling and rear underfuselage keel are different. In my opinion the drawings linked by Aardvark show MiG-17 fin height being identical to MiG-15. In reality - although having the same sweep (a fact that most MiG-15 kit manufacturers had ignored in the past) - they do differ 95 mm in height above the tailplane. Cheers Michael Very interesting Michael. With my friend Fernando of my club - IPMS Chile - we do the exercise of comparing the front fuselaje areas of a Eduard MIG-15 with AZ and Dragon MIG-17 renditions. I dont have the measures here, but the most alarming thing is the fuselage width... it has more than a millimeter of difference between AZ and Dragon. In regard to Eduard, the Dragon fuselage is 0.5 mm more narrower than Eduard one, and AZ fuselage has a width 0.5 more bigger than the Eduard one! I will send you the exact measures in the next post. Regards., Javier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacarre Posted January 19, 2017 Share Posted January 19, 2017 Michael, i have taked some measurents of my Dragon and AZ Kits. I hope i hadn't commit any mistake: Distance between the canopy tail and the split frame: AZ 20mm Dragon 18 Distance between the split frame and fin leading edge: AZ 12mm Dragon 13 mm And this is very interesting: Fuselage height at canopy tail: AZ 20mm Dragon 18 Nose intake ring width at the base: AZ 14 mm Dragon 14mm Nose intake ring internal width: AZ 10mm Dragon 10mm Regards., Javier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 23 hours ago, Jacarre said: Michael, i have taked some measurents of my Dragon and AZ Kits. I hope i hadn't commit any mistake: Distance between the canopy tail and the split frame: AZ 20mm, Dragon 18 should be 13, my AZ is 15 Distance between the split frame and fin leading edge: AZ 12mm, Dragon 13 mm should be 38, my AZ is 39 And this is very interesting: fuselage height at canopy tail: AZ 20mm, Dragon 18 should be 20 Nose intake ring width at the base: AZ 14 mm, Dragon 14mm spot on Nose intake ring internal width: AZ 10mm, Dragon 10mm spot on Regards., Javier Javier, I'm afraid you had Nevertheless AZ looks better in this comparison Cheers Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacarre Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, KRK4m said: Javier, I'm afraid you had Nevertheless AZ looks better in this comparison Cheers Michael Ohhh i suspect it haha.... Could you show me with a pic the canopy tail and split frames points in AZ kit please? I would like to take again the measurements in my examples, and to add vertical surfaces chord. In a preliminary basis, we could say that the Dragon fuselaje is too narrow, and AZ fuselaje is too long... But i'm unsure about vertical surfaces. Here is some measures from the MIG-17's flight manual... are ok with your drawings? Regards., Javier Edited January 20, 2017 by Jacarre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 On 20.01.2017 at 10:46 PM, Jacarre said: Ohhh i suspect it haha.... Could you show me with a pic the canopy tail and split frames points in AZ kit please? I would like to take again the measurements in my examples, and to add vertical surfaces chord. In a preliminary basis, we could say that the Dragon fuselaje is too narrow, and AZ fuselaje is too long... But i'm unsure about vertical surfaces. Here is some measures from the MIG-17's flight manual... are ok with your drawings? The method of applying pictures to the BM forum is so troublesome, that I'll try to use different solution. The split frame is called "shp(angout) No 13" on the Russian manual you use. The distance from the 13th fuselage frame and air intake front lip (extreme front fuselage) in all MiG-15s and -17/-17F should be 4085 mm (according to the manual), which makes 56.7mm in 1/72. Both drawings by Marian Gibas (-15 and -17F) show 56.7mm, Eduard MiG-15 measures 57.0mm that is almost spot-on, while the AZ MiG-17F features 60.8mm - much too long. Some 2.4mm of this extra length is put behind the cockpit, but the intake ring itself is also 1.7mm too long - it's chord should be only 3.0mm. The span given by the manual equals 9600 mm while most modern sources (and Gibas drawings) give 9628 mm - the difference of 0.4mm in scale is hardly noticeable. The total length of 11 264 mm stated in the Russian manual is confirmed by the Gibas drawings (-17PF is exactly 418 mm longer, making it 11 682 mm o/a and 4503 mm forward of the 13th frame). This makes 156.4mm in the 72nd scale and 99.7mm (7179 mm full size) behind the split frame. Mind that in all the -17s the rearmost point is the tailplane trailing edge, located some 1.5mm (110mm in real bird) behind the rudder trailing edge extreme point. Thus the fuselage behind the 13th frame (including vertical tail) should be 98.2mm long with AZ kit (measuring 98.8mm) being almost perfect. Dragon fuselage is too slim for sure, but this is not ONLY AZ, which is too long. Especially when 1.7mm of this AZ extra length is easily corrected by thinning the intake ring. Hope it helps Cheers Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaCee26 Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 On 15.1.2017 at 5:22 PM, KRK4m said: Some 30 years ago, when I was heading the Polish Aviation Museum at Krakow, the well-known Polish researcher and modeller Marian Gibas asked me about the possibility of making definitive scale drawings of MiG-15 and -17 using the plethora of specimen (Soviet-, Czech- and Polish-built) kept within the museum collection. At last I managed to contact him and here are the results. The drawings are scanned from the originals (1:24) scaled to 1:72nd scale. If you copy and print them in this size they should be exactly 1:72 (MiG-15 span and length should be 140 mm, MiG-17F length should be 154 mm and wing span 134 mm). Putting the Eduard MiG-15 against these drawings show only one minor fault - the MiG-15bis (i.e. later ones, finned, not flush-fitting) underwing fuel tanks are just 5% undersized. I had not measured Airfix ones, but these offered by Hobby Boss do fit spot-on. Unfortunately I don't have the Dragon/Italeri MiG-17 in my stash, but the AZ MiG-17F looks decent. The only faults are: fuselage 3mm too long (forward of the split frame it should be identical to MiG-15, here it's 2mm too long between the canopy tail and the split frame and 1 mm between the split frame and fin leading edge), too pointed wing trailing edge outer ends (the radius of curvature is too small, you can correct it with a file), opposite fault at tailplane trailing edge outer end (here the radius is too big, they should be more pointed, but I can live with this) and (AGAIN :)) undersized auxiliary fuel tanks. Both wing and tailplane (span, sweep, chord and area-wise) are correct. Note that MiG-17F and -17PF do differ not only in front fuselage and windshield area. Also the fin panelling and rear underfuselage keel are different. In my opinion the drawings linked by Aardvark show MiG-17 fin height being identical to MiG-15. In reality - although having the same sweep (a fact that most MiG-15 kit manufacturers had ignored in the past) - they do differ 95 mm in height above the tailplane. Cheers Michael Hi Michael! Really plenty of thanks of these wonderful drawings for you to made Mr. Gibas possible to create these and both of you to make them available for modelling community! Cheers, AaCee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacarre Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 On 22-01-2017 at 9:13 AM, KRK4m said: The method of applying pictures to the BM forum is so troublesome, that I'll try to use different solution. The split frame is called "shp(angout) No 13" on the Russian manual you use. The distance from the 13th fuselage frame and air intake front lip (extreme front fuselage) in all MiG-15s and -17/-17F should be 4085 mm (according to the manual), which makes 56.7mm in 1/72. Both drawings by Marian Gibas (-15 and -17F) show 56.7mm, Eduard MiG-15 measures 57.0mm that is almost spot-on, while the AZ MiG-17F features 60.8mm - much too long. Some 2.4mm of this extra length is put behind the cockpit, but the intake ring itself is also 1.7mm too long - it's chord should be only 3.0mm. The span given by the manual equals 9600 mm while most modern sources (and Gibas drawings) give 9628 mm - the difference of 0.4mm in scale is hardly noticeable. The total length of 11 264 mm stated in the Russian manual is confirmed by the Gibas drawings (-17PF is exactly 418 mm longer, making it 11 682 mm o/a and 4503 mm forward of the 13th frame). This makes 156.4mm in the 72nd scale and 99.7mm (7179 mm full size) behind the split frame. Mind that in all the -17s the rearmost point is the tailplane trailing edge, located some 1.5mm (110mm in real bird) behind the rudder trailing edge extreme point. Thus the fuselage behind the 13th frame (including vertical tail) should be 98.2mm long with AZ kit (measuring 98.8mm) being almost perfect. Dragon fuselage is too slim for sure, but this is not ONLY AZ, which is too long. Especially when 1.7mm of this AZ extra length is easily corrected by thinning the intake ring. Hope it helps Cheers Michael Thanks a lot Michael! The vertical stabilizer's and wing chords are ok the same that fuselage width/heigth and rear fuselage lenght? Regards., Javier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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