Dove Tail Joints

[alancmlaird]

Once upon a time, back in the temporal mists before conversion kits, vacform, resin and etch, a conversion from an Airfix Magazine article was begun. And never finished. Then, like some failed portrait of Dorian Grey, emerged unchanged from the attic after all these years. 
Revisited because of the brave build on the Airliner III Group Build of the Magna Devon resin kit, and a chance remark that the Magna kit looked so difficult it would surely be easier to cut up an Airfix Heron.

 

 

.....and so, into the bag with the oven cleaner.....

[Grandboof]

Will be watching good luck 

Martin H

[alancmlaird]

.....24hrs probably wasn't enough time in the 'soup', but Dove deconstruction progressed quite well (or badly). You can see where the cuts were made to the fuselage - just behind the cockpit, just forward of the trailing edge wing root (in a dog leg then vertically between the windows) and just in front of the tailfin extension.

 

I should do this as a sort of 'kit review' as though I wasn't responsible for the errors (!):

 

Nose to fuselage joint is mis-aligned to starboard. 

Tail joint is twisted anti-clockwise.

Port wing has too much sweep-back.

Nacelles are mounted too low and are too short

Port nacelle too far outboard

Rudder, mainwheels/legs, props and spinners missing.

Canopy badly clouded - might polish out.

 

(I wonder why I never finished this model?)

[alancmlaird]

6 hours ago, Grandboof said:

Will be watching good luck 

Martin H

Thanks Martin, as you can see, I'll need it!

[825]

Good luck with this Alan, the Sea Devon is getting close to completion.  Apart from some paint polishing I think my fill and sand moments are over but yours are just beginning.  I know you are starting with a different kit, but the Dove/Devon is a really nice looking aeroplane. I'll be watching how you do. I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for you on this one. 

 

Happy modelling. 

[alancmlaird]

1 hour ago, 825 said:

Good luck with this Alan, the Sea Devon is getting close to completion.  Apart from some paint polishing I think my fill and sand moments are over but yours are just beginning.  I know you are starting with a different kit, but the Dove/Devon is a really nice looking aeroplane. I'll be watching how you do. I'll keep my fingers and toes crossed for you on this one. 

 

Happy modelling. 

Thanks for your good wishes 825....I wouldn't be doing this without your example. I'd hoped our two would make an interesting comparison (two different approaches to the silk purse/sow's ear connundrum), but I'll have such a lot of remedial work to fix my previous cack-handedness before I get back to the original conversion material, i'm not sure mine will be relevant as comparison anyway. Just to top it all, I have heard that Amodel are supposed to be bringing out a kit anyway! T'would seem that, if youve ever wanted a kit of anything, just start a kit-bash or scratch-build and voila, a superb kit will be announced just before you finish. My scratch built Hardly-Worthitt Mk5 Triplane is nearing completion - press-release from Hasagawa expected any moment!

[Enzo the Magnificent]

I wonder if this is the oldest KUTA ever done on Britmodeller.

[alancmlaird]

This shows the joints better....

....though nose and tail are just about to be re-removed....

Support lugs added for re-positioning (straight this time please), and nose section opened up.....

Yes, that is the starboard nose section standing up in the middle of the shot (why'd I shoot it there, looks like a bulkhead - confusing, sorry!). There were a pair of airline chairs in the cockpit - originally white plastic - don't remember the source, but not original. They can stay. Two shaped lead flashing pieces for noseweights, one for under the seats and the other around the nosewheel compartment. They'll be invisible when closed in and still leave the wheel well empty.

 

Add some seats (I find it difficult to get excited about soft furnishings, even at this scale, so these will be barely visible through the 'leaded glass effect' kit windows. Slide them in to the cabin, ship-in-a-bottle style....

.....now to glue the fuselage sections back together again, keeping everything straight. I'll add a small sliver of plastic card on the starboard side between the nose and cabin sections to pull it straight, and rotate the tail around a half a degree. When completely set, I'll add the wings and have a go at the nacelles. Watch this space...... (but don't hold your breath)

Edited November 7, 2016 by alancmlaird
Spelling agaim

[alancmlaird]

28 minutes ago, Enzo Matrix said:

I wonder if this is the oldest KUTA ever done on Britmodeller.

I can't yet date it accurately myself, but if anyone can find the Alan W. Hall article in airfix Magazine, i did my conversion within a year of their article appearing. Also, the very first of the vac-forms were beginning to some out. Rareplanes were first I think, but the the Devon (fuselage only) appeared soon after, I think by the same maker as the the Anson XIX fuselage and tapered wings (I did that one too). Anyone remember the year/s?

[BritJet]

Good progress so far. The Airfix Magazine was Vol.8 No.5 January 1967.

 

Steve

[alancmlaird]

12 hours ago, BritJet said:

Good progress so far. The Airfix Magazine was Vol.8 No.5 January 1967.

 

Steve

Wow! So long ago. Doesn't time fly when you are having fun? So Rareplanes started about 1969-70, and Sutcliffe (was that who did the first crude - though we thought they were great at the time - fuselage conversions of Dove, Anson and others? They were later remastered into pretty good mouldings) began, pre-Contrail, in about 1970. Might have been no later than1969-70 that I started this Dove conversion then. As I said, it was before the issue of the Dove vac conversion kit. Thanks for the info Steve. I might have to stop lying about my age.

[alancmlaird]

Nearly everthing back together again (quicker than I expected), shares in 'White Putty Inc' have gone through the roof, my mononucleosis is coming along fine, but most of the sanding is now done. What is surprising is how much of the Dove uses the Heron parts - the engine to nacelle extensions are the only real additions to the kit parts, everthing else is subtraction. I have altered the cockpit sides to Devon style as my chosen subject will have this type canopy, with the clipped-type elevators. Now to add a couple of coats of matt white on the re-worked parts for final smooth sanding and to show up any (further) irregularities.

 

 

Aside from my 'repairs', this would seem to be a remarkably straightforward conversion, and I don't think this much filler would have normally been necessary, apart from the wing and tailplane roots. The exception was in the under-fuselage joint between the wings on the original kit which was a bit distorted and had mould extraction damage, and the cabin door fit was less than perfect. The Dove has shorter ailerons, but the extra was cut off to be blended in as part of the adjacent flap.

 

 

As you can see, not only has the original wheel well been filled, but the new one I cut years ago was also re-filled! I obviously made the mistake of assuming that the legs hinged at right angles to the centreline as in the Heron, but as I noticed on 825's Devon, they have to retract slightly forward to clear the rear spar - more remedial action necessary!

[alancmlaird]

Correction.....825's SEA Devon!

[Graham Boak]

I am sure that Airmodel did a Dove vacform (conversion?) rather than Sutcliffe - who started with a set of Halifax Merlin cowlings that were so terrible that they nearly had vacforms banned from the house on the grounds of bad language.  Airmodel did a wide range of stuff which may well have included a late Anson, but memories of the later Aeroclub kit could be confusing that.  Time to haul out old Airfix magazines and look at the sales listings - BMW Models of Wimbledon, anyone?

[stevehnz]

I think you're right with saying Airmodel did one, I still have one tucked away awaiting an Airfix Heron kit. The Airmodel fuselage isn't too bad. I've also got most of those early Contrail conversions, real stinkers. It's interesting to compare the Botha kits I have, early & late, totally no comparison.

Steve.

[825]

On 09/11/2016 at 8:59 AM, alancmlaird said:

Correction.....825's SEA Devon!

 

Dont worry Alan. The Magna Kit makes up into a Dove, Devon or Sea Devon. 

 

Great at work on this. It's starting to look good. It looks like you could be finished before me. I'm almost finished painting but with being busy at work and needing drying time between coats it's taking longer than expected. 

[alancmlaird]

39 minutes ago, 825 said:

 

Dont worry Alan. The Magna Kit makes up into a Dove, Devon or Sea Devon. 

 

Great at work on this. It's starting to look good. It looks like you could be finished before me. I'm almost finished painting but with being busy at work and needing drying time between coats it's taking longer than expected. 

 

Maybe not.......
 

Co-incidence! I was just about to add a comment here, and ask you a question 825.
I'll quote John Aero from a post nearly a couple of years ago to start with:

"If trying to convert a Heron to a Dove, Note, the Heron fuselage is deeper (roof higher) than the Dove, A common mistake."

That was never mentioned in the original article by Mr Hall! What activated my suspicion was that the windows on my model seemed either too low or too small, so while comparing pics I came upon John's post. I've asked him if he ever noted dimensions, but in the meantime, I wonder if you'd be able to tell me the depth of your fuselage (would have been MUCH easier before you assembled it) - that's always assuming Magna didn't just cut up an Airfix Heron for their master mould! Not too late (just) to cut the roof off my model yet.....

[Enzo the Magnificent]

On 09/11/2016 at 09:05, Graham Boak said:

BMW Models of Wimbledon, anyone?

 

That takes me back!   I went there once.

[825]

23 hours ago, alancmlaird said:

 

Maybe not.......
 

Co-incidence! I was just about to add a comment here, and ask you a question 825.
I'll quote John Aero from a post nearly a couple of years ago to start with:

"If trying to convert a Heron to a Dove, Note, the Heron fuselage is deeper (roof higher) than the Dove, A common mistake."

That was never mentioned in the original article by Mr Hall! What activated my suspicion was that the windows on my model seemed either too low or too small, so while comparing pics I came upon John's post. I've asked him if he ever noted dimensions, but in the meantime, I wonder if you'd be able to tell me the depth of your fuselage (would have been MUCH easier before you assembled it) - that's always assuming Magna didn't just cut up an Airfix Heron for their master mould! Not too late (just) to cut the roof off my model yet.....

 

Alan, I'll try and measure the depth of the fuselage in the morning. There's a fresh coat of paint on the cheat line and I'll let that dry. On reflection your fuselage seems a little 'fatter' or perhaps rounder. Mind you there has been a fair amount of sanding gone on, on mine. I don't know if it is because the fuselage is deeper but the windows appear a little lower than they should be. But it could be an optical illusion. I'll also photograph the Magna instructions and PM them to you if that's helpful. I don't have access to a scanner until Tuesday if you can wait but the drawings, although relatively basic in their Magna way, are to scale.

 

I've limited time over the weekend as I'm off brewing beer tomorrow, a present from Mrs 825; a day brewing beer in a microbrewery, which can't be all bad. On Sunday it's an early start to get to Euston for a train to Telford for SMW. But I'll see what I can do.

 

 

4 hours ago, Enzo Matrix said:

 

That takes me back!   I went there once.

 

It takes me back too. I used to get stuff mail order from them in my teens. I remember writing nice letters. 'Please despatch the following as per your advert in the Airfix Magazine'. Then a list of Hinchcliffe metal Napoleonic War figures, a Historex 54mm figure and some 1:300 tanks. Those were the days. 

 

Traditionally their advert was the back page of the Airfix Magazine. Here is one from inside from December 1980. 

 

 

They closed round about the time I moved to London in the early/mid 80s. Unfortunate as I don't live very far away and my train to and from work now passes through Haydons Road station which is literally a few steps from their former shop. Never got a chance to actually visit the shop, sadly. 

 

[825]

I've measured up the Magna kit. I don't have calipers or anything with a Vernier scale so these were done with a steel rule and a piece of card so may not be 100% accurate but I did double check.

 

The first two measurements were taken from the bottom of the fuselage, as defined when it turns under not the absolute bottom as there is another mm or so on the actual bottom (and that would have been almost impossible for me to measure accurately with my simple tools. So the depth measured is that based on the fuselage side if that makes sense. 

 

Rear of cockpit 25mm

 

Wing trailing edge/fuselage join 22-23 mm

 

From top edge of 2nd window 7 mm

 

I hope this is enough data points for you to check. I have PM'd some of the Magna instructions and I'll scan them on Tuesday and PM them to you. 

[alancmlaird]

Comparing an Airfix Heron with 825's measurement above, it looks like a 2mm lower roofline! Ok....seek some corroboration. Putnam's 1962 DH book's Heron and Dove line drawing were scanned (all I had available) and by the magik of Photoshop, superimposed the two (Dove is in red)....

 

(all copyright acknowledged - Putnam & Company Ltd/AJ Jackson - not for repro or profit)
This also shows a 2mm height difference. Now (sombody check my maths - I have prevous on errors) this comes out at a full size approx 6". Is that a likely instruction back in the late 1940s? "Just add an 6" to the cabin height for the new model, Derek, we need more headroom" It seems rather a lot in 1/72nd scale! Interestingly, Beechcraft also added a nice, round 6" to the 18E cabin roof height postwar and it looks like a huge increase.

AJ Jackson writes in Putnam's DH book "(The Heron is) built largely of existing components, including Dove outer wing panels as well as Dove nose and tail units joined by lengthened keel, roof and side members..." You might have mentioned the higher cabin AJ!

The same book also mentions the later Dove's asymetic tailplane but the published drawing shows both sides with the clipped elevator! The first time I've noticed the different elevators left to right pictured is on Britmodeller.

I shall pause to regroup - I need to find a 1/72 scale chainsaw to take to the roof - though it would seem that between filing the fuselage base and the top to fix the joints, I have already removed 1mm from the task!. Old style though the kit is, I doubt there is enough thickness left to just file another 1mm off the top. Oh well. Mustn't grumble.
Thanks again for your help 825 (I triangulated all your measurements and they gave me pretty much the same result with each one) - and if anyone has any thought on this, I will be most grateful.

[alancmlaird]

Not much of a pause! Just went ahead and cut the roof off.....

Masking tape as a guide to remove 1mm (or until it looks about right!)

 

.....glue lid back on and fill.......

 

 

To preserve the correct curve I had to glue a 20thou strip of plastic card between the two halves at the roof join. I'll give the glue and filler (and paint) plenty of time to harden before attacking the joins with file and sander.

Fortunately I had not got round to painting the roof at all yet, and the grey and red is only the first, smoothing off' coat. Patience is a virtue, apparently.

[CliffB]

Fabulous work and great to watch.  The spirit of Airfix Mag conversions lives on

 

Cliff

[Grandboof]

Thanks for sharing Very informative 

Martin H

[stevehnz]

That was a courageous move Alan, but looks like it'll pay off. Your Dove/Heron diagram is a cracker too, it really helps to clarify the differences between the two.

Steve.