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TonyTiger66

Breguet 19 and Potez 25 XXV: any fans?

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That's a great effort Dan - well done!

 

Maybe there should be an All your Breguet 19 and Potex 25 questions here thread like the Spitfire and Hurricane ones!

 

There should be another build coming if we can work out some colour questions. here's the subject

 

24735366058_b74c5b49bf_b.jpg

 

The female pilot is interesting - she is Sabiha Gökçen and the reason for the build. There are pictures of her in front of a Bre19.7 - 50 of which were supplied to Turkey. The question is - what colour were they? The Czech Omega kits suggest green which is very reasonable but what sort of green? The builder and her assistant have been playing around with likely colours but your input would be most welcome. The coloured nose (red?) makes #14 below the most likely subject from what the decals offer.

 

26830849049_9247679797_b.jpg

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The surviving unrestored aircraft in the French museum is in the 'standard' overall khaki. Most exported French military aircraft of the 20s retained the standard French finish. So my best guess is that it's French khaki, with the undersurfaces overpainted the light colour. But it may have been completely refinished to the prevailing Turkish standards (whatever they were), or painted in the French factory to the Turkish requirements before delivery. Without precise documentation, it's only ever going to be a guess.

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2 hours ago, Roger Holden said:

The surviving unrestored aircraft in the French museum is in the 'standard' overall khaki.

Without precise documentation, it's only ever going to be a guess.

Thanks for that - your last sentiment applies to many more posts on Britmodeller than people think!

The picture above rules out overall khaki and leads one to think that there was in fact a customer specification for these 50 planes.

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Agreed; it amuses me the endless teeth-gnashing that takes place on the subject of certain WW2 colour schemes. It's as if people talk the topic to death, they think they can miraculously arrive at the correct conclusion. But the fact is most of the information is out there, but buried in some dusty archive out of the reach of modellers.

 

Regarding the Breguet, I wouldn't even be certain that the lower surface was pale blue. It may be silver, which was definitely used on U.S. aircraft built for the Turks in the late 30s.

 

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On 24/11/2017 at 1:33 AM, Ed Russell said:

 

The female pilot is interesting - she is Sabiha Gökçen and the reason for the build. There are pictures of her in front of a Bre19.7 - 50 of which were supplied to Turkey. The question is - what colour were they? The Czech Omega kits suggest green which is very reasonable but what sort of green? The builder and her assistant have been playing around with likely colours but your input would be most welcome. The coloured nose (red?) makes #14 below the most likely subject from what the decals offer.

 

Nope. It's aircraft #19. See photo below:

 

Breguet_19_7-19-Gken.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by Panoz
Never mind...

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When did the TMA book come out ?  I had this book on order for about 10 years, but finally gave up on it. When TMA's publishing was transferred to Artipresse, it still hadn't come out.

When I asked the publisher Jose Fernandez about it at Telford about 3 years ago, he just shrugged his shoulders..... 

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Ok; at least you 'fessed up :smile:.  That TMA book has acquired mythical status and is still 'forthcoming' on the Artipresse website....

 

FWIW, both TMA's (Air Magazine) and AE's colour profiles typically contain loads of errors, so I wouldn't give much credibility to either.

 

The MdlA Breguet XIX GR 'Nungesser-Coli' is still wearing its original paint and it's khaki. The Polish and Belgian Breguets were also khaki according to their own books.

 

On the other hand, some French planes were definitely green. In an old 'Fana' issue, there's a photo of a Nieuport-Delage wood model built at the time by a ground crew member and supposedly painted with the real paint and it's dark green.  So I think both colours were in use, possibly by different manufacturers.

 

Letov S-16 were probably khaki over silver (standard Czech). IMO Turkish Br XIX is most likely original khaki (?) with undersides over painted silver.

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On 12/16/2017 at 6:47 AM, Panoz said:

Nope. It's aircraft #19. See photo below:

Not sure what you mean. There is no #19 on the painting instructions.

Thank you for the picture - it appears to correspond to the aircraft #14 colour scheme on the instructions.

It does not appear to be possible to correlate this pilot to a particular aircraft. It's a fair guess she flew different ones at different times.

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1 hour ago, Ed Russell said:

Not sure what you mean. There is no #19 on the painting instructions.

Thank you for the picture - it appears to correspond to the aircraft #14 colour scheme on the instructions.

It does not appear to be possible to correlate this pilot to a particular aircraft. It's a fair guess she flew different ones at different times.

I mean that she flew aircraft #19.

FWIW Ole Nikolaesen (far more knowledgeable in Turkish AF matters) states that all her operational missions during the Dersim Rebellion (which is why all these photos of her in the Breguet were taken in the first place) were flown in aircraft #19...:whistle:

Edited by Panoz

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That's useful information.

I think they are aware of his work but perhaps not all of it. Have you got a specific reference to #19? How about a colour scheme?

Thanks again for the useful information.

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7 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

That's useful information.

I think they are aware of his work but perhaps not all of it. Have you got a specific reference to #19? How about a colour scheme?

Thanks again for the useful information.

First another photo:

Breguet_19_7-19-Gken-2.jpg

 

That's the photo file from his website (right click and save):

http://www.ole-nikolajsen.com/TURKISH FORCES 2004/BR19fotos.pdf

 

And finally another link (also in English with Turkish AF Breguet 19 info including serials, names, etc):

http://www.tayyareci.com/digerucaklar/turkiye/1923ve50/breguet19.asp

 

HTH (somewhat...)

 

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I have seen those pictures and the text elsewhere - it's (somewhat) useful but is silent on colour schemes nor does it mention #19. Thanks for the help and the interest in this (somewhat) forgotten area of military aviation.

 

Edit - Turkish language references helpful also.

Türkçe dil referansları da yardımcı olur.

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