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TonyTiger66

Breguet 19 and Potez 25 XXV: any fans?

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Just a query and thread idea. :) 

 

These two aircraft are incredibly important in aviation history.

 

I'm not sure which is more so, I suspect the Potez XXV (25).

 

If you have arrived here, you will surely have a little interest in these aircraft?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potez_25

 

Four thousand built.

 

Where are the injection moulded choices?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potez_25

 

Approx 2700 built, and look at that list of operators (for both aircraft).

 

Where are the injection moulded choices?

 

Well, I just wondered if I'm utterly alone in being bamboozled about this?

 

Broplan offer a nice set of Vac-forms for the Potez. Available from around 5 distributors worldwide and yes, a vac-form biplane :S .

Nicely made, but very challenging for many.

 

People are paying up to £100 for the terribly stress inducing (oh so much so) 'Hit-Kit' incarnations of both aircraft.

 

We can buy very expensive resin versions from Omega and (less *relatively* expensive but nation specific variants) from a manufacturer in Serbia.

 

There's a vac form Breguet from Airmodel in Germany too. It's ok, but a bit 'Hasegawa egg kit' like. In fact, to be honest, no cigar. Much scratching required.

 

Other kits have been released. I may have a Merlin aberration somewhere :confused: . To be honest, it is a little more honest in its outright dire, non-pretentious manner, than the utter mind twister that is the Hit-Kit. (Shhhh..).

 

Purpose of thread: To discuss our modelling options and centralise resources to help each other.

 

No one else is going to, trust me. I've written to AZ, Special Hobby and more and it just isn't happening. It's like this is a subject they keep fending off. Passing on the hot potato.

 

One would imagine tooling up a Handly Froop Mingerman Autospline Mk. IV Floatgiro (b.1) , would be preferable and seemingly more profitable. :S .

 

Here we, and maybe they, can discuss why these superb, varied, international subjects of great historical interest, seem to be treated with such strange detachment :poke:.

 

Anyone interested in these two types please join in here with chat, discussion of theatres, record breakers and attempts, pictures, photos, plans, book recommendations in any language, anecdotes, histories, pictures of your builds and recollections of them, tips, whatever takes your fancy.

 

It may prove to be I'm a sole enthusiast :confused: . I really hope not.

 

All best regards

TonyT

 

Breguet 19 colour

 

29827318150_75c3185318_b.jpg

 

30008098772_8b8c097133_b.jpg

 

Photos/postcard scans from my collection (purchased).

T

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No you are NOT the only fan indeed! I want new IM kits of these very important aircraft of the between the wars years. Both had any number of international military users and some truly famous civilian record breakers and air post trailblazers. Both were used to good effect in several wars - the Chaco war (Bolivia vs. Paraguay) and the Spanish Civil War 1936-39 where both sides used the Bre.19...

 

I have the Airmodel Bre.19 and it's definitely one of the very best Airmodel kits. Good basic vacukit with a slew of nice resin parts late '80s style ;)

I'm definitely going to build it! :P

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Count me in too!

 

Christian, exiled to africa

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I am standing here also. Supporting the protest :).

Even if I am close to do both Hit-Kit and Broplan Potez 25 and Hit Kit Breguet XiX - but the lack of them both on the regular market is striking indeed. Especialy if you think on how many long distance pioneering flights they took part (OK, some of those variants of Breguet XIX very completly different from regular military variant). Last but not least - there is also a Omega resin kit of Breguet.... In Le Bourget Museum in Paris there is a modern replica of Potez - so - a lidar scan is possible. Breguet is in this museum in Paris and in Cuatro Vientos   in Madrid. Ok - not the basic variant...

Cheers

Jerzy-Wojtek

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The Breguet is really interresting even with a "Super-Bidon" ( super tank ) transatlantic version...The Potez 25 is a Grand classic in France, but like the famous Caudron serie no recent decent injection models. :(

 

O.

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I'd build one or two. The Potez turns up everywhere.

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Even RAF used a single ex-French (from Syria) civie mutation of Potez XXV - the Potez 29. She has got serial AX 679. She was used as ambulance in Africa (at Fort Lamy) in December 1940 . There is a resin model of her: http://www.blackbirdmodels.co.uk/raf-potez-29-2-72-1475-p.asp

Cheers

J-W

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Thanks folks :) 

 

Good to know I'm not alone.

Thanks also for information on the replica in Paris; I didn't know one was there.

 

Moggy, if you do build the Airmodel one a WIP would be fantastic. I had it but everything (apart from the resin struts and undercarriage parts), went missing in a house move.

 

Im sorry if I sounded a little negative about it, it is at least still available and very reasonably priced. I'm sure a very nice model can be made. 

 

Thanks all for information on resin kits about to be, or already released.

 

I have put my email down to be notified about the Greek variant from the Aviation Megastore.

 

I was surprised to find Potez XXV served right up until 1944 in WWII, it seems in Indochina.

 

J-W, I have the Hit-Kit Potez XXVII. It is similar. If you do build them, beware the seemingly very nice photo-etch interior of the Potez.

 

It is lovely, builds up well, and then doesn't fit! At all! :( :confused: .

 

Ask me how I know... in the Drawer of Doom for now...

 

I have only ever seen photographs of the box of the Hit-Kit Breguet 19. It is almost mythical.

 

It would be wonderful to see you build this J-W.

 

The Super Bidon was available in short-run resin at one point from a cottage industry, perhaps in Monaco. Now I can only find decals.

 

Also a vac form with the choice of the Elizalde engine..I'm sorry again I forget the manufacturer.

 

Any memory jogging most welcome.

 

Omega do very nice Breguet 19 kits, but they are beyond the financial reach of a fair number of modellers.

 

Both seem to be, to me, ideal injection subjects for the 'Azur' brand.

 

Could I ask the collective; if a manufacturer was to release them in IM, what markings, engine and other variants would we like to see?

 

It may sound odd, but there are some heroic tales from the annals of Aeropostale.

 

That would make for a nice subject:

 

 

Any other schemes people like?

 

All best regards

TonyT

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Hi Tony,

The Potez replica in Le Bourget museum is rather fresh stuff - you may see it here:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Potez_25_2_(MAE).JPG

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potez_25

It is (or was in 2010 - the moment of taking this photo?) in form of not covered by "cloths" (yet?).

 

I am 100% with you beeing all the time surprised, that pariculary Azur or Heller have not released both of them (ie. Potez XXV and Breguet 19) yet!

 

Regarding the end of use of Potez - it looks that it was even later then in 1944 -  in above linked French text on Potez 25 in Wikipedia it is said, that in Indochina they seved till 1945 and in Syria even till 1946!!!

 

Regarding Hit-Kit rarity. if I may suggest you... - If the not matching inside metal etched interior is the only reason for keepin the model in Drawer of Doom do not warry too much and take it back  :) . If the misfit is small it is rather simply to get rid the problem. You can just slighty  thin the walls of fuselage from inside scrapping it. If the difference is bigger, I will propose you to do all the construction a bit smaller using styren thin sprues and put all the stuff like instrument pannel, seats etc.  inside this new, smaller "cage" (construction tubes). After your notification of this problem it is very likely that I will do this from the begining (I am not a big fan of metal parts in fact) . If you would do model from  vacu set like Broplan you have to made this construction out of scratch, anyway...:) - so "do not worry - be happy" :) - take it out from hell! It is too rare model to keep it there...

Cheers

Jerzy-Wojtek

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On 09/10/2016 at 8:52 PM, JWM said:

Hi Tony,

The Potez replica in Le Bourget museum is rather fresh stuff - you may see it here:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Potez_25_2_(MAE).JPG

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potez_25

It is (or was in 2010 - the moment of taking this photo?) in form of not covered by "cloths" (yet?).

 

I am 100% with you beeing all the time surprised, that pariculary Azur or Heller have not released both of them (ie. Potez XXV and Breguet 19) yet!

 

Regarding the end of use of Potez - it looks that it was even later then in 1944 -  in above linked French text on Potez 25 in Wikipedia it is said, that in Indochina they seved till 1945 and in Syria even till 1946!!!

 

Regarding Hit-Kit rarity. if I may suggest you... - If the not matching inside metal etched interior is the only reason for keepin the model in Drawer of Doom do not warry too much and take it back  :) . If the misfit is small it is rather simply to get rid the problem. You can just slighty  thin the walls of fuselage from inside scrapping it. If the difference is bigger, I will propose you to do all the construction a bit smaller using styren thin sprues and put all the stuff like instrument pannel, seats etc.  inside this new, smaller "cage" (construction tubes). After your notification of this problem it is very likely that I will do this from the begining (I am not a big fan of metal parts in fact) . If you would do model from  vacu set like Broplan you have to made this construction out of scratch, anyway...:) - so "do not worry - be happy" :) - take it out from hell! It is too rare model to keep it there...

Cheers

Jerzy-Wojtek

 

Thanks Jetzy-Wojtek :) 

It does not fit by a long way, too much for practical fuselage thinning. The other thing with this kit is the plastic is extremely brittle and short shot everywhere.

 

Many of the components on the sprue are useless, or not there.

 

The wings come in upper and lower halves; all the wings. They are extremely brittle, overly thick, bubbled up with mismoulded plastic in the centre.

 

It means great care has to be taken to thin them, without them shattering. It feels like one is sanding down cheap china, as in crockery. 

 

A wordplay on 'take it out of hell' is that the kit, once taken out of its bag, puts the poor builder in hell! :D 

 

I know you can do it, because I have seen your many builds and scratch builds, but for a mere mortal like I, the Hit-Kit is purgatory!

 

What makes it actually worse, is the sincere desire to have it finished and on display :confused: !

 

None of my Drawer of Doom get thrown away. They just get finished very slowly, in sessions that I can bear, perhaps with the help of relaxing music and a glass of calming wine!

 

Your suggestion for the interior is very good. In fact, the $Hit Kit ( ;) ) does have an alternative plastic frame for the interior on the sprue.

 

This is not 100% there on the sprues, crumbles when handled, and doesn't fit. It is nevertheless an 'idea' that, with some plastic rod and more, can be used with parts of the etch set.

 

I have lost some of my Hit Kit Potez XXV, but I used to have a few. I mention this because it is a 'lucky dip'.

 

Some are very badly mis-moulded, 80% flash, whilst others aren't too bad. Perhaps the latter are from the start of the production run.

 

It's interesting you mentioned Heller. Yes, ideal subject :) .

 

Also Farman was mentioned: why so few Farman kits of any kind in injection moulding?

 

I wonder if any French BritModellers could tell us?

 

It's off topic, but I could amend the title slightly?

 

All best regards

TonyT

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Does anyone have any links to nice plans, public domain photos, or videos?

 

Pictures of your models, built, unbuilt or in between, of Breguet 19 and Potez 25 in any scale would be wonderful :) 

 

Best regards 

TonyT

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I downloaded plans for Potez XXV from some Russian web page, but I do not remember the link. However,  

they were the same I think like here:

http://www.maketarstvo.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29289&sid=73e08a9d79f8d9a58c47b2c5a2c79a4a

Some are here also

http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/ww1planes/ww1-france/15539/view/potez_xxv_wwi/

Cheers

J-W

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I would absolutely love to see a Br.19 (Br.XIX) in 1/72nd scale in a good injection-moulded kit. I have a couple of the Omega Model kits, and they're nice, but they are all-resin kits. I wouldn't mind a Potez 25 (XXV) either in injection-moulded plastic. These were the French equivalents of the British Hart family. Let's remember that for years the Hart family was largely ignored by the plastic manufacturers, except for the odd Hart or Demon, but in the last ten years of so things have picked up, with AZ models, and Avis coming out with some nice injection-moulded kits (some redone by Amodel), and with Kora, albeit in resin, kitting just about everything in the Hart family. Let's hope the same thing happens with these two important French light bombers. The choice of markings for both would be enormous.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

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Thank you for sharing J-W. :) 

 

I will write more later to you and Jason.

 

Before I forget it, I found this on YouTube. It is film of the old Quatro Vientos factory in Spain.

 

A lot of the film is concerned with the construction and trial of the Breguet 19 :) 

 

 

Cheered me up!

Best regards

TonyT

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Nice thread Tony.....You are a star!  :thumbsup:

 

To say that I'm unimpressed with AZ's attitude to this aircraft would be a massive understatement.....Doubly so now that I know their "Special Hobby are doing it" excuse for abandoning the Potez XXV is just so much BS.  :nono:

 

There are some very nice examples on the site:

 

Broplan 1/72 - Dan Hayward:  http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234990154-172-broplan-vac-potez-xxv/#comment-2132118

MMmodel 1/72 - wojtecz:  http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234998582-potez-xxv-a2-172-mmmodel/#comment-2294869

Hitkit 1/72 - CliffB:  http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234921030-potez-25-toe-finished/#comment-1065544

 

Sadly all of those kits are well outside my skill and patience range.  :rolleyes:

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51 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Nice thread Tony.....You are a star!  :thumbsup:

 

To say that I'm unimpressed with AZ's attitude to this aircraft would be a massive understatement.....Doubly so now that I know their "Special Hobby are doing it" excuse for abandoning the Potez XXV is just so much BS.  :nono:

 

There are some very nice examples on the site:

 

Broplan 1/72 - Dan Hayward:  http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234990154-172-broplan-vac-potez-xxv/#comment-2132118

MMmodel 1/72 - wojtecz:  http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234998582-potez-xxv-a2-172-mmmodel/#comment-2294869

Hitkit 1/72 - CliffB:  http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234921030-potez-25-toe-finished/#comment-1065544

 

Sadly all of those kits are well outside my skill and patience range.  :rolleyes:

 

Thanks Sarge and thanks for putting links to those builds in one place.

 

@CliffB did a great job with the Hit-Kit, and overcame the interior problem I was discussing with Jerzy-Wojtek admirably.

 

The flash, the flash, the horror, the humanity :shutup:  ;) !

 

I have never seen the MModeller kit before but @wojtecz made a little gem out of it.

 

Likewise with @Dan Hayward 's Broplan. The Broplan kit in this engine configuration currently seems to be sold out everywhere I look. I'm not sure if the Republicans ever had one with this engine, I thought they had Jupiters, but I'm very possibly wrong. Could anyone advise?

 

A few years ago I acquired this little horror:

 

https://www.flickr.com/gp/144781950@N05/d701Nu

 

In all honesty, it doesn't look as bad as many Merlin blobs do. 

 

It looks like it's made of resin, but it isn't. It's made of huge chunks of plastic. The upper wing outer pieces are warped and the fuselage 'bananas' are interesting:

 

Merlin Potez xxv fuselage bananas

Jerzy-Wojtek has really helped here as long ago the struts and (white metal?) undercarriage frame  and radiator have gone missing.

 

The kit only includes a very basic plan:

 

Plan

 

Thanks to J-W for the plans as these are no use.

 

Best regards 

TonyT

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You are welcome, TonyT :) If you need Broplan's Potez XXV A2  you may send a request about purchasing a kit  to them by "snail" mail - the address is on each model box, you can take it from here for instance.

http://www.aviationmegastore.com/?offset=100&sortOrder=1&action=as

Try - maybe it will work...

The Broplan is a very small company - but very cooperative. For instance they replaced me one yellowed canopy without any charge. I have very good experience with them - and more than 10 models in stash. I have to start to do them - so far I made only two of them (RWD 13 and PWS 10)... 

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

 

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I thought there were a couple of new Potez kits mentioned in the 'Rumourmonger' area, one injection (but possibly short run) and one in resin.....Are they not happening?   :shrug:

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Count me in!  I find both types very interesting and as shown above I've built one version of the Potez so far.

 

As for the Breguet, I've got a very interesting project involving one that I hope to get to this winter.  It will utilize a Formaplane vac kit which I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned here yet.  I was on an ebay buying spree last year and snapped up two different versions of the Breguet XIX in separate auctions.  The first was kit no. E7 which is labeled as "Breguet XIX Military"

Formaplane%20E7%20Breguet%20XIX_zps4mu9t

 

Formaplane%20Breguet%20XIX%20Military%20

 

Obviously not as sharp as some vac kits I've seen but I think it can be built with some care.

 

The second kit is no. E6 which is labeled as a Breguet XIX Super Bidon but closer inspection of the plastic reveals this to be molded as "Cuatro Vientos", the specially built Super Bidon that was flown from Spain to Cuba in 1933 and which subsequently disappeared without a trace en route to Mexico City.  Note the cockpit enclosure.

 

Formaplane%20E6%20Breguet%20XIX%20Super%

 

Formaplane%20Quatro%20Vientos%20plastic_

 

The big problem with this kit, at least the one I got, was the lack of decals for the  distinctive Cuatro Vientos markings.  Most could have been painted on, but the lettering on the fuselage isn't something that could be pieced together from any existing decals.  I thought I'd ask around on the Internet to see if any aftermarket decals were ever produced and hit gold at the Wings of Peace Yahoo group.  Turns out no decals currently existed but Mika Jernfors of Arctic Decals offered to produce a set and within weeks I had them in my hands.  Best of all, they are available to anyone who needs them at his website- http://www.arcticdecals.com/products.html?id=21443/270423

 

Arctic%20Decals%20Cuattro%20Vientos_zpsb

 

They are beautifully done and this is the project I hope to start on this winter!

-Dan

 

 

Edited by Dan Hayward

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On 23/10/2016 at 11:02 PM, Dan Hayward said:

Count me in!  I find both types very interesting and as shown above I've built one version of the Potez so far.

 

As for the Breguet, I've got a very interesting project involving one that I hope to get to this winter.  It will utilize a Formaplane vac kit which I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned here yet.  I was on an ebay buying spree last year and snapped up two different versions of the Breguet XIX in separate auctions.  The first was kit no. E7 which is labeled as "Breguet XIX Military"

Formaplane%20E7%20Breguet%20XIX_zps4mu9t

 

Formaplane%20Breguet%20XIX%20Military%20

 

Obviously not as sharp as some vac kits I've seen but I think it can be built with some care.

 

The second kit is no. E6 which is labeled as a Breguet XIX Super Bidon but closer inspection of the plastic reveals this to be molded as "Cuatro Vientos", the specially built Super Bidon that was flown from Spain to Cuba in 1933 and which subsequently disappeared without a trace en route to Mexico City.  Note the cockpit enclosure.

 

Formaplane%20E6%20Breguet%20XIX%20Super%

 

Formaplane%20Quatro%20Vientos%20plastic_

 

The big problem with this kit, at least the one I got, was the lack of decals for the  distinctive Cuatro Vientos markings.  Most could have been painted on, but the lettering on the fuselage isn't something that could be pieced together from any existing decals.  I thought I'd ask around on the Internet to see if any aftermarket decals were ever produced and hit gold at the Wings of Peace Yahoo group.  Turns out no decals currently existed but Mika Jernfors of Arctic Decals offered to produce a set and within weeks I had them in my hands.  Best of all, they are available to anyone who needs them at his website- http://www.arcticdecals.com/products.html?id=21443/270423

 

Arctic%20Decals%20Cuattro%20Vientos_zpsb

 

They are beautifully done and this is the project I hope to start on this winter!

-Dan

 

 

 

Fantastic stuff Dan! :thumbsup: 

 

I had no idea that Formaplane had done the Cuatro Vuentos.

 

Now there are decals for it too.

 

I only came here today as I have been doing a little fun research again.

 

I have been wanting to find information on 'Questionmark' ? 'Point d'Interrogation'.

 

I found some nice resources here, including an image of inside the cockpit;

 

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20088.htm

 

How suitable do you think the Formaplane  Cuatro Vientos would be for conversion into a Grand Raid Dan?

 

Keep us updated with your project; bargain buys for sure :) 

 

Best regards

TonyT

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On 14.10.2016 at 7:31 AM, TonyTiger66 said:

he Broplan kit in this engine configuration currently seems to be sold out everywhere I look. I'm not sure if the Republicans ever had one with this engine, I thought they had Jupiters, but I'm very possibly wrong. Could anyone advise?

Hi,

I.ve seen at least Potez XXV from SCW in not one version, Here you may find profile for a radial (Jupiter?)

http://www.vitoria-gasteiz.org.es/REPUBLICA_AERODROMOS_GCE.htm

And here you may find two others (Republican and Franco sides)

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww1/potez25.html

One more from Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potez_25#/media/File:Potez_25-Spanish_Republican_AF.jpg

I googled it with "Potez XXV guerra civil" :) 

Regards

J-W

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