1/72 SEAC Black / White Squadron Codes ?

[Rabbit Leader]

All,

I'm racking my brain trying to search for appropriately sized Black and White RAF Squadron codes as 'typically' applied to aircraft operated in the SEAC theatre of operations.

Ideally I would like the letters OB and one other to make up a Silver / Dark Blue banded 45 squadron Mosquito VI, however I'm really struggling to find the right size and most importantly 'thickness' code letters.

I've searched through the usual outlets (Hannants / Fantasy Printshop), however most of their squared letter codes appear to be too thick in character stroke.  

 

Just wondering if anyone knows a source where I can lay my hands on a bunch of letters that would suit my purpose.   

 

Just managed to work out how to add images!! - hopefully a picture will explain this a little clearer.

 

 

Cheers... Dave.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Rabbit Leader
Profile example added

[Rabbit Leader]

"Thread bump"

I realise that most of you were all deep asleep in the land of the nod when I originally posted this question.

I've just added a profile to help explain what I'm on about.

You would think that finding black codes would be easy - until you actually want something like this!! 

 

Cheers.. Dave.

[Seahawk]

They look like 24" codes and stroke width is thinner than on many code letters.  My best suggestion is these:

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/VA7251

 

[Graham Boak]

The answer used to be Letraset - are they still available?  (Another new technology that was going to replace the old way of doing things...)

 

You have another possible problem, in that the "white" codes were often pale blue.

[Rabbit Leader]

Thanks for your replies Seahawk and Graham.

 

I actually have that Tasman sheet and although they look like the right size, they are rather thick set for my liking. Letraset - I've only read about these and have never seen them. Did they come in both waterslide and rub on type? 

 

I'll do a search for some Letraset black codes but feel as it it may be in vein. If anyone out there thinks they can help with sourcing six black letters similar to the above SEAC Mosquito, I'd be very keen to hear from you. 

 

Cheers and thanks.. Dave

[MilneBay]

I used Letraset or a similar product called Decadry - they are rub on letters and the best way is to rub them on to a clear section of decal film then apply them as you would a normal decal. They seem to have gone the way of the dodo although art supply places may have them.  

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by MilneBay

[RJP]

I wonder if a good art supply shop or stationer could help with rubdown lettering?  Years ago, I saw sheets of letters and stripes in various widths, at least in black.  The letters tended to be Helvetica so weren't much value at the time.

They were the devil to position correctly, tougher the larger they became.  Unlike decals they could not be moved at all once they were down.

Letraset also used to do small modeller sheets of unit insignia, mostly German fighters.  They were very sharp and being so small were very effective.  And, being rubdown, there was no carrier film so there was no silvering problem.

Edited September 23, 2016 by RJP

[Nick Millman]

FWIW OB-J RF668 had a narrower fin band positioned higher up with the serial repeated to small size between the band and the fin flash. The codes look thinner than in that profile and on 45 Sqn Mossies the OB was forward of the roundels on both sides of the fuselage. I don't think the spinners are black - the tone is lighter than the dark blue of the roundels but darker than the light blue - possibly a red flight colour when the aircraft was photographed in Jun and Oct 45. 

 

OB-J also had the inner sides of both cowlings painted black, a glazed circular panel in the nose above the guns for an F.24 camera and a personal emblem painted on the starboard side crew hatch - looks like a standing knight in armour holding a lance and shield.

 

Nick

[Rabbit Leader]

Thanks for all your replies and I appreciate Nick's post which includes the additional detailed information for RF668 OB-J.

I'll take a bit of look around to find these 'Letraset' type transfers, so hopefully there will be something out there that matches.

 

Photo's and text in Jefford's book "Flying Camels" suggest that 45 Squadron's Silver painted SEAC ID stripes were painted black, however I've also seen many references to a Dark Blue being used - especially on RAF P-47's. Is there any recent evidence to suggest that the official requirement was 'white ID stripes on camouflaged a/c and Black on silver'  or does evidence still remain that Dark Blue bands were also used?

 

I really thought I knew it all when it came to these schemes, however it's funny when you dig a bit deeper you always find things that you've never seen before - hopefully before it's too late!

 

Once again - Cheers and Thanks .. Dave.

[Graham Boak]

I'm open to correction, of course, but I don't think that there ever was any real evidence that blue stripes were used; and the published copies of the official requirement state Black (or perhaps Night!), so "recent evidence" doesn't come into it.

 

The official colour "Night" does include a small amount of Ultramarine, so perhaps this could be a source of confusion.  However, Night does not appear as a dark blue but as a black.

[Nick Millman]

21 hours ago, Rabbit Leader said:

 

Photo's and text in Jefford's book "Flying Camels" suggest that 45 Squadron's Silver painted SEAC ID stripes were painted black, however I've also seen many references to a Dark Blue being used - especially on RAF P-47's. Is there any recent evidence to suggest that the official requirement was 'white ID stripes on camouflaged a/c and Black on silver'  or does evidence still remain that Dark Blue bands were also used?

Dave.

 

In Eyes for the Phoenix (Hikoki, 1999) Geoff Thomas refers to a 27 Jan 45 instruction from HQ ACSEA for the ID bands which included a diagram showing the position of the bands and was notated as follows (my emphasis):-

 

"Stripes and numbers (A) for uncamouflaged aircraft will be identification blue, (B) for camouflaged aircraft will be white."

 

At Appendix X the book contains a facsimile diagram referenced as appended to 224 Group Order No.4/45 10 March 1945 showing this same notation. However this order stated that for aircraft of 224 Group and First Provisional Fighter Group the bands should be black. The diagram showing the bands and notation is reproduced to a larger size in Geoff's 'Royal Air Force Thunderbolts' of 1987 where he suggests that Night  was also used for the bands in some instances. 221 Group and 224 Group applied the bands in identification blue per the HQ ACSEA order and 45 Sqn were part of 221 Group.  

 

The reason that the bands have been perceived as black is possibly because in some photographs they appear darker than the dark blue of the roundels - but that is probably because the paint is fresher and less faded. A Mosquito photo on page 209 of the book gives a good impression of the bands being an exactly similar tone as the roundels. 

 

Both Blue and Night were listed in stores reference containers for overseas use and  those for Night are sometimes listed as 'Black' in wartime documents. I have not yet found any wartime documents listing Black with a stores reference number which suggests that Night was always used. I'm afraid that I must respectfully disagree with Graham about Night being synonymous with black however. The colour is a blue-black - a very dark blue - as evidenced by official RAE descriptions of how the colour was standardised and the Munsell value B (Blue) for that colour standard which also survives today in BS 381 as 642 Night. The blue hue is an undertone and the very low saturation can make it appear as a very dark grey to some eyes when compared to a pure black. When I analysed the modern BS 381 L*a*b* values given for the colour I calculated them to be a Munsell PB (Purple Blue) but very close to the nearest B notation. Another indication that Night was considered to be a different colour to black (apart from the clue in the name) is that the 1948 MOS listing of aircraft finish identification colours includes both Night and Black with separate stores reference numbers. 

 

By a coincidence (maybe!) the IJN specification for their blue-black anti-glare colour was the same for Night - a mixture of Ultramarine and Carbon Black - and the colours are exactly similar in appearance. Therefore hobby paints for IJN "cowling colour" provide a useful Night (but not Special Night) straight out of the bottle or tinlet. 

 

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Thanks Nick, but I did not say Night was "synonymous" with Black, or indeed black.  I stand by my comment that Night appears as a black rather than a dark blue.  I willingly accept a very dark grey to some people as a useful qualifier.  Your statement appears entirely compatible with mine.  There does appear to be a vast hoard of references where people refer to aircraft known to have been painted Night as being black.  I don't recall anyone referring to, for example, Bomber Command's aircraft being painted with dark blue undersides.

 

Thanks for the comment about identification blue, but here the devil is certainly in the details.  224 Group was the overall command for aircraft operating in Burma in 1945.  If the instruction was to use Night in 224 Group than this included the Mosquitos which are the subject of this thread.

[Nick Millman]

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Thanks Nick, but I did not say Night was "synonymous" with Black, or indeed black.  I stand by my comment that Night appears as a black rather than a dark blue.  I willingly accept a very dark grey to some people as a useful qualifier.  Your statement appears entirely compatible with mine.  There does appear to be a vast hoard of references where people refer to aircraft known to have been painted Night as being black.  I don't recall anyone referring to, for example, Bomber Command's aircraft being painted with dark blue undersides.

 

Thanks for the comment about identification blue, but here the devil is certainly in the details.  224 Group was the overall command for aircraft operating in Burma in 1945.  If the instruction was to use Night in 224 Group than this included the Mosquitos which are the subject of this thread.

 

Thanks for the clarification, but I think that your original comment might have given that impression. It did in my case! I can see the blue undertone in Night and it can also be seen in some colour photographs but generally blue-black is seen as "black". 

 

I also have to disagree on the Mossies I'm afraid!  221 Group were headquartered at Imphal under Vincent when the order was issued and 45 Sqn were at Kumbhirgram airfield just north of Imphal, whereas 224 Group were headquartered at Cox's Bazaar on the west coast of Assam. It was 221 Group's fighter squadrons that were away from command detached to airfields around Imphal. I can't see anything to suggest that 45 Sqn came under 224 rather than 221 command at that time. In June 1945 45 Sqn was non-operational - it had been stood down from operations on 13 May 45 and subsequently moved out of Burma.

 

However, the contradiction in the two orders does introduce an element of doubt as to blue or black and I think it comes down to personal choice on a model.   

 

Nick

[Graham Boak]

I was using the orders of battle in Air War Over Burma, for December 1944 and June 1945.  In December four out of five Mosquito squadrons (discounting PR) were non-operational (and all camouflaged anyway?).  In June four out of the six, including 45 Sqn, were under 224 Group.

 

It is a puzzling point about what colour was to be used in the MUs, who would not necessarily know where the aircraft would be employed.  Or indeed where squadrons were redeployed from one Group to another.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Graham Boak
Correction to number of Mosquito squadronss non-operational in December 1944, as in lower posting.

[Nick Millman]

The Dec 44 OOB in Air War for Burma shows  45 Sqn in 221 Group and it was very much operational by then. In Jun 44 they were still under 231 Group engaged in pre-operational courses and training but they flew their first Mossie op over Burma on 28 Sep 44 when two aircraft took a couple of Army officers on a recce to Shwebo and dropped 500 pounders. In the first 9 days of November (for example) they flew 36 sorties dropping 28,000 lbs of bombs, and firing 5,706 rounds of 20mm and 11,103 0f .303 with claims for one aircraft, two locomotives, 18 rolling stock, 13 MT vehicles and 14 river craft .

 

By the time of the Jan 45 order they were still camouflaged according to SEAC 'day bomber' requirements (DG/DE over Azure Blue) and under 221 Group command - which on reflection makes my suggestion about fresh paint making the bands appear darker unlikely. The Mossies were re-painted silver after the order for the bands although the chronology can be confusing as 45 Sqn were still operating some camouflaged Mossies as late as Apr 45. 

 

Nick

[Nick Millman]

On 25 September 2016 at 10:48 AM, Nick Millman said:

 

I I have not yet found any wartime documents listing Black with a stores reference number which suggests that Night was always used. 

Nick

 

 

Just found one! A September 1942 memo on aircraft maintenance that includes as an attached appendix a complete 33B stores listing. In addition to Night and Special Night the list includes a synthetic enamel 'Black' for brush application (No.1) in 1 gallon containers only with reference # 159. The listing also confirms the availability of temporary camouflage distemper paints and separate stores reference Temperate Land colours Type M (matt) for night bombers. It is the most complete listing that I have seen for this early date.

 

Nick