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I'm toying with the idea of converting the Revell/Matchbox Tiger Moth to a Fox Moth. Apart from the new fuselage. centre wing section and tweaked u/c legs, my research indicates that not much else needs changing. Does anyone have any other views to the contrary? Anyone have any scale plans?

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I am quite sure that the same conversion appeared in a magazine (Scale Models? Fine Scale Modeler?). I'll try to locate the article and scan it, if you wish. If someone knows the exact magazine it would help.

 

Carlos

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9 hours ago, CarLos said:

I am quite sure that the same conversion appeared in a magazine (Scale Models? Fine Scale Modeler?). I'll try to locate the article and scan it, 

 

 

Thank you Carlos that would be most kind 

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Unfortunately I couldn't find the (imagined?) article. There was a thread on the subject a few years ago:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/30874-dh83-fox-moth/

 

Let me know if you need the plans by Granger.

 

I am also interest in such conversion, so please post any progress.

Edited by CarLos
typo
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THIS HAS BEEN EDITED TO REMOVE INCORRECT INFORMATION BY John Aero Please see my later post of Sept 23rd.

The sweep back on the Tiger was, top, 6.5 deg, lower 5.75 deg. The Fox was 3 deg.  Stagger was 3.15".

 

I've just done a set of 1:48 Fox Moth patterns.  To convert Tiger wings, the wing roots need wedges added and the trailing edge curves blending in. The centre section is wider and the trailing edge of this can differ. The complete tail unit is virtually 100%  Tiger.  Canadian built Foxes have different centrally split cowlings and more bulged wider doors. You need to study the prototype of the chosen registration. 

 

I have loads of stuff on the Fox and the best drawings are probably the Geelen/Norman Estaff ones..

 

John

 

Moth%20Rally%202015%20069_zpsyaj0yxh1.jp

 

NZ Fox Moth

 

Goodwood08067.jpg

 

UK Fox Moth.

 

SDC11714_zpsdjto6dmz.jpg

Canadian Fox Moth

 

 

 

Neg179_zps6kc98yyy.jpg

 

 

Goodwood%2008%20075_zpsvvdkbxcd.jpg

 

The odd strut under the top wing is the telescopic jury strut for folding the wings.

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John

Thank you very much for your input. The modifications to the wings sounds easy enough. You are so right about the variations.The middle photo shows another style of door I had not seen before. The instrument panel is another one that has differences. From what I have seen there are two different types so I think what I will do is base my model from a period photo (that way no one can tell me I have used the wrong one!)

Are you sure about the slats, for I have seen Fox Moths with the (I assume) actuator fairings under the upper wing?

 

Carlos

Looks like I will have to do this as  WIP now then! If you think the Granger plans are any good that would be great, as I do not know where I cna get my hand on the other ones that John refers too

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That is the ex Royal Fox Moth G-ACDD ex New Zealand and now in Canada. It was ordered with slats (I have the original wooden prop off this aeroplane) Not many Fox's ever had slats. The Granger pans are fine and the other ones are Aeromodeller Dec 1943.

 

John

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This thread is very interesting.

 

I would very much like to see you do this with a WIP on BM Andy :thumbsup2:.

 

Thank you for all this useful information John. It is good to know about the wings, so many internet soutces re-iterate the wrong information.

 

I hope to do a conversion in 1/72. I have an old Airfix magazine with a conversion, but it's quite a kitbash and not entirely accurate.

 

I have an AZ 1/72 Tiger Moth in the stash that is in peril of serious kitbashery... :fight: 

 

I intend to make a Spanish floatplane variant, but cannot find any details on the floats used.

 

Do any of you chaps know if these were fitted by DH for the customer, or a later addition?

 

I am wondering if e.g. the floats from a DH 82b Queen Bee' would be the same?

 

I cannot find plans showing a float variant.

 

Any advice very gratefully received :) 

 

All best regards

Tony

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1 hour ago, TonyTiger66 said:

 

I hope to do a conversion in 1/72. I have an old Airfix magazine with a conversion, but it's quite a kitbash and not entirely accurate.

 

I have an AZ 1/72 Tiger Moth in the stash that is in peril of serious kitbashery... :fight: 

 

I intend to make a Spanish floatplane variant, but cannot find any details on the floats used.

 

Do any of you chaps know if these were fitted by DH for the customer, or a later addition?

 

I am wondering if e.g. the floats from a DH 82b Queen Bee' would be the same?

 

I cannot find plans showing a float variant.

 

Any advice very gratefully received :) 

 

All best regards

Tony

Tony,

 

No need to do a conversion in 1/72 as Aeropoxy make a 1/72 Fox Moth resin kit with wheels, skis and floats. I have one in my stash.

Edited by AMB
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Well! Many thanks AMB :thumbsup2: !

 

I'll get googling for one. I've never built a resin biplane. I do have some Omega ones in the stash (Breguet 19, Renard). I need to get confident with rigging them. 

 

I normally drill tiny holes, I was worried this might shatter the fine resin. I need to research/learn.

 

This leads me to think floats were fitted or manufactured by DH?

 

A beautiful aircraft.

 

Many thanks for your help, I would rather improve my resin skills with a complete kit than kitbash :) 

 

All best regards

 

Tony

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The Spanish Fox EC-V V A  which had a faired sliding canopy and fitted with floats which were made by Shorts and fitted at Rochester. The layout was similar to the Queen Bee setup. I think that you'll find that these floats were Gloss White as this was the normal Shorts waterproof Varnish finiish used.  

 

The Canadian ones were I think made by Edo and had a different strut arrangement than the UK ones. They are not as blunt tipped as the Matchbox Tiger ones which were post war modern types.

 

John

 

Oh and the Aeropxy one has a remarkable look to my old vac and injected one, even down to the "ding" on the wing where I dropped a screwdriver on to the wing mould...

 

 

 

 

Edited by John Aero
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19 minutes ago, John Aero said:

The Spanish Fox EC-V V A  which had a faired sliding canopyand fitted with floats which were made by Shorts and fitted at Rochester. The layout was similar to the Queen Bee setup. I think that you'll find that these floats were Gloss White as this was the normal Shorts waterproof Varnish finiish used.  

 

The Canadian ones were I think made by Edo and had a different strut arrangement that the UK ones. They are not as blunt tipped as the Matchbox Tiger ones which were post war modern types.

 

John

 

Oh and the Aeropxy one has a remarkable look to my old vac and injected one, even down to the "ding" on the wing where I dropped a screwdriver on to the wing mould...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello John,

Many thanks, that's the exact aircraft I wish to model.

 

It was involved in the Amazon expedition, survived the civil war and it seems may have been serviceable until 1959.

 

Quite a fascinating history.

 

I am having trouble finding photographs, just one blurred early one so far in which it may be silver /aluminium dope or perhaps grey, a different shade on the cowl.

The faired sliding canopy is hard to completely see, very 'art-deco' (great).

 

If you know of anyone :whistle: that may have any of your vac/injection left, please send me a PM :) 

 

For reasons of rigging, and the climate here quite possibly warping resin no matter how I display it, I would far prefer a vac over resin. 

 

All best regards

TonyT

 

PS "cough" Comper Swift "cough"? ;) 

 

 

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There is a photo of this Spanish Fox having it's floats fitted in Stuart McKay's, DH Moths in detail. It's in the Ulster Folk Museum collection. I think it was Silver over all with possibly white floats. My old Fox Moth mould still exists but the wing mould doesn't.

 

John

 

Tony, PM me re the Comper Swift.

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I've just followed up a hunch and I was thinking that DH's shortened the front wing spars of the Tiger to suit the new Sweep for the Fox. This would make sense, though there is a quote from DH sources which says that by changing the metal root fittings, "Tiger Moth wings can be interchanged with Fox Moth wings".  This has set me to thinking that all the model drawings have parallel centre sections and the Cabane struts are all parallel to each other. I have photos that show this to be not the case and I think that we might have a trapezoid centre section. I need to seek some further help on this.

IMG_6900_zpss0otynlj.jpg

 

 

IMG_6901_zpsmomhwly2.jpg 

 

Note the lower wing root, remembering that the ribs are perpendicular to the wing spars. It would appear that the rear spar root fitting has been extended and a metal fairing added to the root rib. Also the rear cabane struts are wider at the top than the front struts. They both slope forwards 3" for the wing stagger. ???

 

John

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6 hours ago, John Aero said:

There is a photo of this Spanish Fox having it's floats fitted in Stuart McKay's, DH Moths in detail. It's in the Ulster Folk Museum collection. I think it was Silver over all with possibly white floats. My old Fox Moth mould still exists but the wing mould doesn't.

 

John

 

Tony, PM me re the Comper Swift.

 

Thank you John.

 

I couldn't have wished for more precise information.

 

I went on the Ulster collection and couldn't find it. Nevertheless the book looks very useful indeed.

 

I have ordered a copy from Abe books.

 

Thanks Graham, I went online and had a look at the Avis kits. The floats are a separate sprue and look like the ones in the photo I have (which does look silver John).

 

The Arctic Avis kit actually looks too attractive an option from which to plunder! :D 

 

I foresee anothet slight slimming of the bank balance :confused: 

 

PM on its way John

 

All best regards

 

TonyT

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Well, well, well,

 

I received this information via another forum from Stan Smith a well know vintage aircraft restorer in NZ. I really shouldn't keep having hunches about aeroplanes.

 

The Fox is a bit of a Bitza as we say. Bits o' this and bits o' that. Most of your supposition is correct. Basically the only part which is "pure" Fox ( even more so on the Canadian build) is the fuselage section from the cockpit rear bulkhead forward. You will note the kink in the top longeron at the rear bulkhead and the joint fishplates. The reason is that the rear fuselage is actually a grafted-on DH60 G unit complete with standard 60 empennage. Although there are many references that say the engine bearers are Tiger, they are similar in shape but are different in actual dimensions. The English Fox has a dedicated undercarriage design, but to save time and expense the Canadian model has a modified Tiger gear (main leg reversed,drag strut now a compression member and hockeystick/axle extended inboard with standard DH82C Bendix brake units).
The wing is standard Tiger. The centre section has a longer rear spar carrythrough to "take the sweepback" from the top wing and for the bottom, the fuselage is wider at the rear spar position and, as you thought, the wingroot rear spar fitting is extended to remove the sweep. As the Canadian version used the 82C empennage, the elevators are fitted with cockpit adjustable trim tabs and mass balances, and they also fitted the 82C tailwheel assembly, Gipsy Major 1C and the same style of gullwing cowlings 
Trust that this is of some help. I also have all the drawings for the Canadian, most of the English and also Tiger, Moth Minor and Dragon (a few thousand)
.

So, it would appear that all the drawings for the Fox Moth from whatever source are wrong. Again I think that the blame, if one can call it that, lies with the publicity handouts from DH's which were published in all the aeronautical journals and used as the basis of model drawings  starting with the first ones in Aeromodeller in 1943. I suggest that these have formed the start point for all other Fox Moth, model drawings, no matter how well regarded the producer..

 

I'm now trying to obtain of the right info to produce a corrected set of Fox Moth drawings. Little statements like, "The Fox Moth used Tiger.... "    They might be true, but only when analyzed properly.

 

Here's another one I have already solved. The DH.84 Dragon used Moth outer wing panels!   Yes this is true but again not as drawn in model publications...

 

John

 

 

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Gosh john it looks like you have done all the research for me!

Would it be possible to have a copy of your corrected plans? 

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Tony, I had once also the idea of doing Fox out of Tiger (in 1/72 from AZ kit or rather from scratch) - here is my attempt,  

I am not 100% satisfied, but it was a nice play... I based mostly on drawings from Spanish book on British, Czech and Polish airplanes in Spanish Civil War ("Aviones en la guerra civil ..." - we talk about this biik on group buil forum). This was my last build of a biplane without EZ cable...

 

Cheers

Jerzy-Wojtek

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6 hours ago, andy wood said:

Gosh john it looks like you have done all the research for me!

Would it be possible to have a copy of your corrected plans? 

Andy

Certainly when I have the measurements I need, I'll do a drawing and once in my program it can print out at any scale.

 

Cheers

 

John

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