RIAF Hurricane with elephant nose art - did it exist?

[Dave Fleming]

Is that a drawing of an elephant under the cockpit?

 

[tonyot]

On 5/6/2019 at 10:38 AM, Dave Fleming said:

Is that a drawing of an elephant under the cockpit?

 

Great photo!!!,...... I`ve noticed on later SEAC Hurricane`s lke this one,.....and many of those based in Ceylon too, that the undersides were very, very light,....... certainly not Medium Sea Grey,...... anybody got any idea what the colour was? Could it be a locally produced very pale blue,...... even paler than Sky Blue,...or even a very pale Sky (Green)? Here are a couple of examples;

 

 

Or does this colour film still explain it?,...... 

With a period b&w photo of a Hurricane from the same unit (136 Sqn) at the same time at Alipore in India for comparison;

 

AND,.....As a control,...... a freshly painted Hurricane with Sky (I would assume official Sky) applied to the undersides;

 

Cheers

        Tony

Edited May 7, 2019 by tonyot

[Linescriber]

Differentiating shades of grey and deciding colours from it is an exercise best not undertaken.  The vagaries of light, natural, artificial, the ISA setting on the camera, the age and granularity of the film, the paper it was printed on, the age and freshness of the developing solution used, the quality of the scanner, the settings on your screen and finally the age of our eyes all can lead us up the garden path!!

[Graham Boak]

I've sent it said that early Hurricanes used Sky Blue for overseas deliveries, which may have been Azure Blue misidentified.  The real Sky Blue was paler than Sky.  From the colour photo I'd rule out Azure Blue.

[tonyot]

6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I've sent it said that early Hurricanes used Sky Blue for overseas deliveries, which may have been Azure Blue misidentified.  The real Sky Blue was paler than Sky.  From the colour photo I'd rule out Azure Blue.

My gut feeling is Sky Blue,..... as you know Graham as I`ve said it before,.......and Azure Blue is far too dark for this context,..... which is why I didn`t mention it.  The Sky (Green) is still a nagging doubt,...... it shouldn`t have been used,...... but it could well have been.  

 

Cheers

          Tony

[tonyot]

7 hours ago, Linescriber said:

Differentiating shades of grey and deciding colours from it is an exercise best not undertaken.  The vagaries of light, natural, artificial, the ISA setting on the camera, the age and granularity of the film, the paper it was printed on, the age and freshness of the developing solution used, the quality of the scanner, the settings on your screen and finally the age of our eyes all can lead us up the garden path!!

Which is why I posted a number of examples that all appear to match,.... and all have undersides which are lighter than normal for the SEAC Theatre. We are still allowed to have an opinion on what the colours may have been,....... many of us using our collective knowledge can often come up with a solution,......  that is what the Britmodeller community is extremely good at,..... would you rather we just not bother?

Cheers

           Tony

[stevehnz]

The film still appears to show a Hurricane in TLS, is there a reason why that shouldn't hold for the others as well?

Steve.

[Ed Russell]

10 hours ago, tonyot said:

many of us using our collective knowledge can often come up with a solution,......  that is what the Britmodeller community is extremely good at,.....

Linescriber has eloquently pointed out the difficulties, but I completely agree with Tony, this is what forums like this are for. You can look at the ideas people have and make your own choice.

I think all the photos above are consistent with Dark Green, Dark Earth, Sky (or Sky Blue) under a series of different lighting conditions and picture quality. That's an opinion, not a pronouncement!

 

Edit re thread drift - we haven't really got past Post 12 - (Hurricane, Profile Publications, respectable profile artist, profile proliferation, lack of photograph, ?private sources)

[Dave Fleming]

On 5/8/2019 at 12:20 AM, tonyot said:

Which is why I posted a number of examples that all appear to match,.... and all have undersides which are lighter than normal for the SEAC Theatre. We are still allowed to have an opinion on what the colours may have been,....... many of us using our collective knowledge can often come up with a solution,......  that is what the Britmodeller community is extremely good at,..... would you rather we just not bother?

Cheers

           Tony

Added to which, if you are familiar with how known colours appear on various b+w film/filter types, you can usually make an educated guess at whether a colour is non standard or not by comparison to those.

[Troy Smith]

On 04/05/2019 at 23:35, Seahawk said:

HV538 ought to be a IIc, according to the A-B serial listing.  The batch of 1000 HV275-HW881 was a mixture of IIb, IIc and IId: the relevant entry does not have the asterisk marking denoting a IIb or the cross  denoting a IId so by default it's a IIc.

 

HV538 is not listed separately in the Hurricane production listing in Mason's The Hawker Hurricane but all the HV53x and HV54x aircraft that do feature are IIc Trops. 

The list of Hurricane production compiled by @Geoffrey Sinclair has HV538 as a IIb, but the numbers around it are IIc,  There is no 'logic' to the list BTW. 

Dug out thread as as profiles HV538 and KZ352 feature in the Valiant Wings book, page 131..... guess what the profiles  look like....

 

[2996 Victor]

22 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

guess what the profiles  look like

Day Fighter Scheme?

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

Day Fighter Scheme?

specifically, the repeat of the A-A profile, and HV538 as a IIC as per the linked profile, or this

Edit - for ease of comparison, this is the photo of HV538

and the profile 2nd below (errors - wrong MK, wrong shape and position B, wrong position of serial, wrong fin flash, no ID bands, no nose art, black spinner, mostly likely if TLS) 

 

 

 

from https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=342114.0

 

and a lot of these in the  are in the new book the same, same mistakes.   Anyone recognise the book these are from?   Ah, OK, a bit of searching...

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/hawker-hurricane-famous-aircraft-world/author/caruana-richard/

 

 

So, a the new book has  mostly rehashed  profiles from this.   

Right. That makes sense. same profile artist. 

[dogsbody]

Member Geoffrey Sinclair ( @Geoffrey Sinclair ) has asked me to post this for him.

 

" There is a certain logic to the list, but short term.  Also given how many Canadian built IIB became IIC before delivery to the RAF it is clear a wing change could have been made. "

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Goeffrey

[Troy Smith]

@dogsbody, thanks for that.

I cannot see cannon bulges on the wing, or any barrel shadows on the ground on the photo of  HV538,  and records show it was built as a IIb,  I've not checked to see for what squadron though.  Does @Geoffrey SinclairSinclair have a figure to hand for rewinged Canadian b winged to c wing?  

 

The point was more about the amount of errors in the profile Vs photo, and also the amount of errors in other profiles by the same artist, and that these profiles were done 15+ years ago and have recently been trotted out again, in a 'new' 'reference' book, perpetuating the errors. I'd not seen any reference to the recycled profiles, or any serious assessment of the book, as yet. 

Guess what I'm working on.....

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

When it comes to the Canadian built Hurricane mark II they all came with B wings, 11 were lost at sea en route to Britain, 681 arrived, 2 of which were scrapped before delivery to the RAF.  The aircraft were incomplete airframes, missing various items like flight instruments.  So final assembly was done in Britain, not reassembly.  When it comes to which of them ended up with B or C wings the various lists have their disagreements.  I do not know if the 11 lost at sea are considered delivered in the following numbers but the 2 scrapped ones obviously are taken into account.

 

IIB production in Britain 300 Austin, 867 Gloster, 2,051 Hawker (including 168 reported as IIE (IIBB)), total 3,218, then add Canada.

 

As of June 1944, well after both IIB production and imports from Canada ended, 3,352 IIB ordered, 3,350 delivered, plus 230 IIBB (IIE) ordered and delivered, total 3,580.  Then 3,580 - 3,218 = 362 IIB from Canada versus 681 mark II arrivals in Britain with 679 delivered.  So pushing half of Canadian built mark II that arrived in Britain seem to have ended up as IIC.

 

To be clear the Ministry of Aircraft Production has 168 IIE in its monthly reports but at some stage revises the total to 270, the RAF reports receiving 230 IIBB and 40 IICB, the final B standing for Bomber, and zero IIE.

[Troy Smith]

Time for a bump.    I'm going to blame @Ed Russell for sending me complicated emails asking Hurricane questions....  anyway,  I was searching for something else Ed asked me, and this cropped up on Asisbiz, miscaptioned, but how did I miss this one....

 

 

note this is almost certainly HV538,  note the canopy cover, position and angle of the B,  position of ground crew, and position of the belly panel,  which look to have camera ports,  and and confirms the B wing.    

PS - note the IFF wire as well. 

 

 

I'll @Seahawk,  @Geoffrey Sinclair  @tonyot @dogsbody @Graham Boak

this is the second best Hurricane image I found today...    the best is a worth a post of it's own! 

[Jagan]

On 5/14/2021 at 5:53 PM, Troy Smith said:

@dogsbody, thanks for that.

I cannot see cannon bulges on the wing, or any barrel shadows on the ground on the photo of  HV538,  and records show it was built as a IIb,  I've not checked to see for what squadron though.   

 

 

@Troy Smith Great Catch at connecting HV538 to the three elephants and Hurricane photo! I had seen this photo in Indian books in the mid 80s so to have its actual serial is a great find..

 

I have HV538 as having served with 6 Sqn IAF. as noted here : http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/details.php?uniq=HV538

 

 

EDIT: Here you go - its there in Feb and March of 1944

 

http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/var/albums/members/HV538.PNG 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Jagan

[Troy Smith]

One other point, I suspect the elephant trunk is concealing the side camera port, @Jagan,. As seen in the film clip you linked me too.  Both of those Hurricanes have them, and a camera is seen below.

I'll add in the famous image in a mo.

[Jagan]

5 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

One other point, I suspect the elephant trunk is concealing the side camera port,  

 

More of an inspection panel?   J- ---

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galleries/History/WW2/Imphal/21-BR-Rao-Ground-Crew.jpg.html  (Hurricane IIB) 

 

or could be this https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galleries/History/WW2/Agnihotri/Akyab45/Akyab-HurriCamFit.jpg.html (Hurricane IIC)

Edited October 3, 2021 by Jagan

[Troy Smith]

I think I was wrong, I'm on a little tablet, and not looking at the film, but HV538 does have belly cameras.

This shot, is superb

Note same port in the background, And just visible on left, directly under the pale bag, a camera port.  

EDIT - also, part visible serial, D17,. This is LD17, there are three airframes with LD17*  serial that served with RIAF Sq.  I'll type out later.

 

The two cameras are seen well here 

 

Note also the J of the serial, implying JS***, so Canadian built. 

  I'm guessing the rear camera can be mounted either vertically or oblique?  Also, the cameras are staggered, the front being to starboard, the rear to port,. And this can be seen on the belly panel of HV538 in the starboard image.  

 

This seems to be a standardised installation, wonder if details of this modification survive?    Why do interesting this like occur when I should be getting to sleep!!

 

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

On 15/05/2021 at 16:45, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

IIB production in Britain 300 Austin, 867 Gloster, 2,051 Hawker (including 168 reported as IIE (IIBB)), total 3,218, then add Canada.

 

As of June 1944, well after both IIB production and imports from Canada ended, 3,352 IIB ordered, 3,350 delivered, plus 230 IIBB (IIE) ordered and delivered, total 3,580. 

To fix an error, when 3,552 was incorrectly transcribed as 3,352.  Hurricane production.

 

As of June 1944, well after both mark IIB production and imports from Canada ended, the RAF Aircraft Census says 3,552 IIB ordered, 3,550 delivered, plus 230 IIBB (IIE) ordered and delivered, total 3,782.  Then 3,782 - 3,218 = 564 IIB from Canada. This is versus Canadian production of 514 mark II for the RAF plus 30 mark I for the RAF converted to mark II before departure from Canada and 150 ex RCAF mark XII, these 180 are counted in the census as mark II ordered by the RAF, giving a total of 694.

It means as far as the RAF is concerned 694 - 564 = 130 Canadian built mark II that arrived in Britain ended up as officially ordered IIC, so under a fifth NOT over a half of CCF mark II production for the RAF as IIC, then come further conversions, the RAF serials registers have around 187 CCF built Hurricanes listed as IIC, which is over a quarter of those sent to the RAF.

 

Mark IIB production ended in Britain in November 1942, while the final 248 CCF built Hurricanes arrived March to June 1943.

[Graham Boak]

Which would make examples still being flown by the RAF and RIAF up to the end of the war decidedly elderly airframes.  Of course many will have been sitting in crates/MUs for much of their life, and may be much younger in flying hours.

[Ed Russell]

In the absence of a photograph, this is probably the most definitive answer we will get to the original query. it comes from Sqn Ldr Rana Chhina, author of the history of the Indian Air Force in WW2 and beyond - The Eagle Strikes - http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/books/reviews/806-eagle-strikes.html#gsc.tab=0

He says in an email -

I'm afraid that there is no record of such an aircraft or any known photograph of it. I checked with a friend who is an air marshal and himself a keen modeller. He is aware of the query but has not seen any proof of such an aircraft.

It seems the query has come up in India too with similar lack of positive outcome.

[Ger Darkly]

Are there any records or photos of the aircraft used by the IAF Display Flight during Wg Cdr Arjan Singh's time as CO between February and September 1945? https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/1577

The only photo I could find shows very little of the aircraft http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galleries/History/WW2/Jumbo/IAFDF-Jumbo.jpg.html

It is known that the IAFDF used the Hurricane IIc http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/details.php?uniq=LE950

 

Is it possible that the profile in question, or at least some elements of it, represent Wg Cdr Singh's IAF Display Flight aircraft?

[Linescriber]

Arjun Singh walks past the Display flight's Hurricanes IICs at walton.