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rlm65 a bit confused


PhantomBigStu

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I've seen that argued. It is shown as such in Ullman's chips, but is not present or (that I can find) commented on in Merrick. As both of these can be considered fairly definitive, feel free.

As one qualification, Merrick does copy an official chart dated to 1941, so any use of a greyer colour must post-date that, rather than being a simple prewar/wartime split. As the Germans were not expecting the war to break out when it did, it would be unlikely that they had timed any camouflage change around that date.

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I've seen that argued. It is shown as such in Ullman's chips, but is not present or (that I can find) commented on in Merrick. As both of these can be considered fairly definitive, feel free.

As one qualification, Merrick does copy an official chart dated to 1941, so any use of a greyer colour must post-date that, rather than being a simple prewar/wartime split. As the Germans were not expecting the war to break out when it did, it would be unlikely that they had timed any camouflage change around that date.

So if indeed there were two colour a BoB era example would be the supposed brighter one then....that I think clears things up, worried I was using the wrong interpretation of RLM65, which is ironic as I asked this before I started painting my heinkel not noticing the scheme doesn't have RLM65 in it...

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Changes in the formulation and use of RLM 76 have been put forward to explain both a lighter shade and the greenish colour found on late-war relics, but I don't think the final word has been said yet. A lot of information has been seeping out in recent years, so hopefully there is more yet to come.

Given the German problems in supply of "exotic" materials such as paint pigments, it wouldn't be surprising to see significant variations during the war, although (before late 1944/45) I'd expect to see this by means of introducing a new colour standard rather than leading to possible confusion by altering a standard one. However we now know that they had both an early and a late standard for their desert colours 78 and 79, so it is not unprecedented.

It is also argued that the interior colour RLM 66 changed during the war. I don't know what the current consensus is on that, if there is one.

Edited by Graham Boak
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I've seen that argued. It is shown as such in Ullman's chips, but is not present or (that I can find) commented on in Merrick. As both of these can be considered fairly definitive, feel free.

As one qualification, Merrick does copy an official chart dated to 1941, so any use of a greyer colour must post-date that, rather than being a simple prewar/wartime split. As the Germans were not expecting the war to break out when it did, it would be unlikely that they had timed any camouflage change around that date.

I'm with Graham on this one although I'll go a little further and state my own personal opinion (note it is only my opinion) that there does seem to be a marked difference to my eye from the pre war colour to the late B of B and onward colour from what I can see in (the dreaded) photos.

Whether it is down to the way the film deals with colours, the way the paint ages, the density it's been applied or actually being of a different mix I don't know but I tend to use the bluer one for pre/early war and the grey/greener version for later models. (I then go and cover them in washes and stuff to make them look scruffy and totally hide the colour anyway!)

Duncan B

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Yes, there are different shades of RLM 65. Prior to late 1941, more of blue hue. After that, more of a green hue. Though two colors, it remained RLM 65.

Mark Proulx

Do you have any references for this? I'm not trying to be confrontational. Our RLM paints are matched to Merrick and Kiroff's work, which itself is a repeatable primary research based method using official period documents (i.e. they used original formulae and produced new batches of the original paints to determine the colour without the effects of yellowing celluloid test cards over decades etc). As Graham says above, there is nothing noted in this fairly extensive work to support your statement. That doesn't make what you're saying wrong, but if there's equally robust credible evidence then I'd like to source a copy and add another colour to the range. :)

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I am away from my references at the moment. If my memory serves me correctly, discussed by Ullman. I also have documents at home discussing difficulties surrounding RLM 65. Additionlly, I have fragments oF Stuka airframe pieces clearly green in hue (the Stuka RLM 65 undersides)

Mark Proulx

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I think we need to be a little bit careful with samples that are 80 years old now. Yellowing can be observed after 10 years, never mind 80 so it's not unreasonable to expect blue to shift to green over that time.

It would be good to find an official period document addressing the change, if your documents capture this :)

Please do post back though when you can get to your references. It's certainly the case that many modellers expect to see a greeny RLM65, but that's largely a circular argument. I'd be happy to make a greeny RLM65, but I want to make sure I'm not just replicating 80 year old paint that has changed colour from what it started out as, for obvious reasons!

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The "greening" of extant light blue paint samples is typically caused by the yellowing of the paint binder, especially if stored away from light.


However, Gustav Roth of Hamburg (for example) had two formulae for RLM 65. 7109.65 contained predominantly titanium dioxide (white), tinted with zinc white, zinc chromate, ultramarine blue and aniline blue. The single coating paint 7121.65 contained just zinc white, ultramarine blue and a whole load of talc. Both could be expected to chalk with exposure which would make the paint surface look lighter and greyer. I don't have actual samples but from the pigments I doubt that they would have appeared identical and the zinc chromate in the first formula, although to a small proportion, probably resulted in a slightly more turquoise looking blue.


According to Jerry Crandall Warnecke and Bohm's RLM 65 was based on ":Chromium Green oxide" (sic) which I don't really understand, but Chromium Oxide and Chrome Green are definite green pigments.


The Tafel 41 standard for RLM 65 is a Munsell Blue 7.4 B 6.6/3.2. It is duller and greyer than FS 35450 which can make it appear "greener" to some eyes but it is nowhere near as green looking as the Blue Green of RAL 6034 Pastelltürkis (Pastel Turquoise).


There are different grades of synthetic ultramarine blue, the colour of which depends on process heating times, temperatures, mixture proportions of the silica and alumina as well as various modifiers. It can be distinctly greenish. I doubt that the production in wartime Germany was precisely constant.


How much variance was tolerated by Luftwaffe inspectors would also be a factor affecting the appearance of paint on different aircraft types and production batches.


Nick

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Don't suppose you have a copy of the whole formula Nick? I don't have any zinc chromate or aniline blue pigments but have titanium oxide, zinc oxide and ultramarine blue. I could make up a new sample if the proportions are available :) (and I can source the missing ingredients)

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Don't suppose you have a copy of the whole formula Nick? I don't have any zinc chromate or aniline blue pigments but have titanium oxide, zinc oxide and ultramarine blue. I could make up a new sample if the proportions are available :) (and I can source the missing ingredients)

Yes I do. I'll send them to you via pm. The binder includes proprietary resins but I don't suppose that will matter. I don't really understand why the one formula included both ultramarine and aniline blue (to a tiny proportion) though.

Nick

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This relic recently has come into my posetion, stored on a loft since 1940, when it was "liberated" by the boy who live on the farm where the plane crashed and just recently seen daylight, it is the aliron from a Bf-110B, and with colors 70/65 and 02 to be seen

The photoes is taken in direct sunlight.

DSCN1583.jpg

DSCN1585.jpg

DSCN1587.jpg

Cheers

Jes

Edited by Touvdal
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Now then Nick, what are your thoughts on age yellowing off celluloid films the RLM test cards were produced on. I understand some paints will yellow if kept in the dark; the yellowing being a separate process to sun bleaching.

Thank you for the formulae. I'm going to try to source the missing ingredients.

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I've just been reading Kiroff's appendix to Merrick Vol.2.

He discusses that the total pigmentation ratio of 7109.65 was 10% and fairly crap at covering. The 7121.65 version increased that to 20% thus greatly improving the covering power. He goes on to state:

"That led to the situation that the colour tone represented in the charts could only be matched after the introduction of individual, single colours. This has also lead to the conclusion on the part of some historians that there was more than one shade of RLM65, something that has never been proven".

I may need to substitute Cobalt Blue in for Aniline Blue, something I can only find medical references for available as an aqueous solution - not a lot of use for making solvent based paints! From what I can find on the colour of aniline blue, it seems to range between what most would call ultramarine blue down in intensity to something like cobalt or egyptian blue. I have egyptian blue actually - what am I talking about??? Sourcing raw ground zinc chromate seems tricky but I'll keep looking. I reckon I could use a modern single-pack clear lacquer as a binder for this. We're only trying to find out if it's a greeny blue after all!

Edit: Nope, alkyd resin is brown like linseed oil.

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:heart: Ah, this is why I love this site so much!

Looking forward to much, much more of this sort of discussion.

Out of interest, there was an article in Windsock International about French aircraft camouflage colours which ended with a historical proportional list of the ingredients used to make each of the colours. Now I mix my own!

Cracking stuff.

Christian exiled to africa

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And just how much did the guy with the paint sprayer/brush stir the stuff in the tin?

Beauty, and paint shades, are all in the eye of the beholder...........

Edited by FatFlyHalf
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Which has nothing to do with starting from the right point in beginning to understand the paint used. Even so, when you are painting a whole aeroplane you are liable to use rather more of a tin than you would on a small model, so this can even out. Quite apart, of course, from the over-riding features of pride in your work and the military discipline of the Oberfeldwebel peering over your shoulder. And what may have been true for one aircraft wouldn't affect another in the same way, so lacking more direct evidence (such as a charge sheet) the modeller cannot say that this particular one wasn't painted properly. The odds are that it was.

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During our interview with Warnecke & Böhm years ago they pointed out RLM 65 did in fact change. Their latest formula was dated 23 April 1942 and is as follows; KL 102H (Ikarol resin), Talcum 1727, Titanium dioxide, Lithopone white gloss Grillo,. Blue 1152, Yellow 420 N, Hydrated Chromium Oxide Green U 700 and a tinting with paste B. So I asked them with this formula could they reproduce the paint. They explained there was no way as these chemicals contained lead and were outlawed. Some variation in paint is, especially late war, due to the use of Italian manufactured paint using RLM specs.

RLM 66 color did change slightly from a charcoal dark gray to a dark gray with a very slight greenish tint. Warnecke & Böhm was given the task of converting 66 to a paint that would eventually be acid proof and fire retardant. There were at least seven different formulas from 1 December 1941 to 28 April 1942. They were kind enough to give us all of their remaining original color formulas as they pointed out no researcher had ever contacted them regarding their wartime paint which I find astonishing.

Mark Proulx is correct in his statement regarding 65 as this is confirmed by W&B and Muster Schmidt's 1938 Color chart in our collection from 1968.

Cheers, Jerry

Edited by Jerry Crandall
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During our interview with Warnecke & Böhm years ago they pointed out RLM 65 did in fact change. Their latest formula was dated 23 April 1942 and is as follows; KL 102H (Ikarol resin), Talcum 1727, Titanium dioxide, Lithopone white gloss Grillo,. Blue 1152, Yellow 420 N, Hydrated Chromium Oxide Green U 700 and a tinting with paste B. So I asked them with this formula could they reproduce the paint. They explained there was no way as these chemicals contained lead and were outlawed. Some variation in paint is, especially late war, due to the use of Italian manufactured paint using RLM specs.

RLM 66 color did change slightly from a charcoal dark gray to a dark gray with a very slight greenish tint. Warnecke & Böhm was given the task of converting 66 to a paint that would eventually be acid proof and fire retardant. There were at least seven different formulas from 1 December 1941 to 28 April 1942. They were kind enough to give us all of their remaining original color formulas as they pointed out no researcher had ever contacted them regarding their wartime paint which I find astonishing.

Mark Proulx is correct in his statement regarding 65 as this is confirmed by W&B and Muster Schmidt's 1938 Color chart in our collection from 1968.

Cheers, Jerry

Excellent knowledge, that's very interesting that no one had ever been in touch with them before! Great detective work.

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This relic recently has come into my posetion, stored on a loft since 1940, when it was "liberated" by the boy who live on the farm where the plane crashed and just recently seen daylight, it is the aliron from a Bf-110B, and with colors 70/65 and 02 to be seen

The photoes is taken in direct sunlight.

Cheers

Jes

Jes, those photos are great, nothing like a relic to excite ones colour fixations. :D As I'm seeing it, this would be the outer half of the starboard aileron. I've not been able to find a Bf 110B camo pattern but on the assumption an early C would have the same splinter pattern, this would explain why it appears to be solid RLM70. I began looking for some RLM 02 on the upper side but then realised a B would be too early (?) for that & figured it was the mass balance in RLM 02. maybe the RLM 65 underside colour wore/flaked off over the years. Bearing in mind the difficulties of interpreting colours from a photo, even a recent one, to my eye your colour bance is pretty good in those photos & thus the RLM 65 on the undersurface appears somewhat greyer than Humbrols Hu65, which I've never been a fan of, my pottle anyway. Thanks for posting these, they've happily wasted occupied a hour or so of computer time & I reckon on being a little better informed now. As an aside, would it be possible to convert a Bf 110C to a B with the correct engines?

Steve.

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