PBJ-1J MITCHELL Marine usage colour question

[Gmat]

Google the USN designation for the two pics.  F2T-1

 

Grant

[modelglue]

Found them thanks @Gmat.

[Otakar]

Yes Gmat is correct F2T-1 is the navy USMC designation.

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Otakar said:

The "Devil Dog" decal is a fictional aircraft all together. It is a Civilian rendition of an aircraft that never existed. The only gun nose the marines used was the short nosed J model with the 75mm in it.

 

a 'J' with a 75mm gun is an 'H'   

 

I've not heard of  a  Naval 'H' model.

 

the Marines used 8 gun nose J's

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1441921351/Just+received+my+PBJ+Mitchell+Units+of+the+Pacific+War+and+found+there

 

 

" "BOMB RUN: A flight of VMB-413 PBJ on a bomb run over Japanese facilities on Vunakanau, New Britain in March of 1945. Vunakanau is located on the same island and near Rabaul Harbor." 

seehttp://www.vmb413.com/photographs.htm  "

 

and

 

For  the OP,  AFAIK the PBY-1J 8 gun was only seen in the tri-colour  scheme,  overall blue was seen on PBY-1D's IIRC,  there is a lot more on these in "PBJ Mitchell Units of the Pacific War" book 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mitchell-Units-Pacific-Combat-Aircraft/dp/1841765813

 

has a 'look inside' facility.

HTH

 

 

[Seahawk]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

a 'J' with a 75mm gun is an 'H'   

 

I've not heard of  a  Naval 'H' model.

 

 

Jerry Scutts' PBJ Mitchell Units of the Pacific War (Osprey) has several photos and artwork of PBJ-1Hs.  Most are with various test units, notably testing the Tiny Tim rocket, but VMB-613 was "the only Marine Corps unit fully equipped with the sub-type for Pacific operations" (p.73).  

[Dana Bell]

8 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

For  the OP,  AFAIK the PBY-1J 8 gun was only seen in the tri-colour  scheme,  overall blue was seen on PBY-1D's IIRC,  there is a lot more on these in "PBJ Mitchell Units of the Pacific War" book 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mitchell-Units-Pacific-Combat-Aircraft/dp/1841765813

 

 

Hi Troy,

 

VMB-612's PBJ-1Js were overall sea blue when stationed on Iwo in mid-1945.  They were also equipped to launch Tiny Tims, though I'm not sure they used those rockets in combat.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Troy Smith]

14 hours ago, Seahawk said:

 

Jerry Scutts' PBJ Mitchell Units of the Pacific War (Osprey) has several photos and artwork of PBJ-1Hs.  Most are with various test units, notably testing the Tiny Tim rocket, but VMB-613 was "the only Marine Corps unit fully equipped with the sub-type for Pacific operations" (p.73).  

cheers Seahawk

I only have  the book as a pdf, and not too hand.

9 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

 

Hi Troy,

 

VMB-612's PBJ-1Js were overall sea blue when stationed on Iwo in mid-1945.  They were also equipped to launch Tiny Tims, though I'm not sure they used those rockets in combat.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

Thanks Dana

 

are there photos of these anywhere?  I'd  not found any,  I did some research when I got a cheap part done Mono strafer nose J, without decals.

I presuming they are pretty plain, just national insignia and serials/codes.

 

Anyone have a drawing or photo of how  the radar pod attaches to the wing,  I know that pod is the same fitted to Hellcat and Avenger (which I  have  spare), and there is a resin one available, (but post  from the US is the killer) but  lack details  of  the attachment.

 

cheers

T

[Dana Bell]

Hi Troy,

 

There are several good shots - lots of closeups (including the nose radome) and a few overall images.  Send me you e-mail and I'll DropBox you the lot.

 

Cheers,

 

Dana

[email protected]

[Troy Smith]

11 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

 

Hi Troy,

 

VMB-612's PBJ-1Js were overall sea blue when stationed on Iwo in mid-1945.  They were also equipped to launch Tiny Tims, though I'm not sure they used those rockets in combat.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

Thank you Dana, email sent.

 

were there any 8 gun strafer nose PBJ-1J's in overall blue though? 

no-one  mentioned any of those in my searches a while back (see Hyperscale links above)no-one  mentioned any of those in my searches a while back (see Hyperscale links above)

I have vague memories of the J's with the overpainted glazing and nose radar in overall blue now you mention it.

Cheers

T

 

 

 

[Gmat]

 The Avery book on the B-25 has photos of the Tiny Tim tests as well as a couple mounted on 612's aircraft. The test photo is upside down. A pair were mounted under the fuselage and 612's PB-1J has it mounted this way. A wing mount was also tested, inboard of four 5 inch pylons. Avery's book states that two missions (11th August with two aircraft and 13th August with three aircraft) were flown with the Tiny Tim rockets but no targets worth expending the missiles were found. The ships spotted were too small. What is interesting on the VMB-612 aircraft shown (small white number on tail seen on other aircraft but not visible on this one) is that some ECM/Elint antennas are visible. A small white jamming radome, left side before the bomb bay where the side and lower fuselage meets, a T antenna on the upper fuselage, aft of the upper towel rack antennas and one ventral dagger antenna, a little further aft on the right side. The small bottom radome and the dagger antenna probably had a matching mate on the other side of the fuselage. PB4Y-2s had similar white antennas jamming radomes and a few had the T ELINT antenna and dagger antennas.

Here is a poor copy of the photo with the ELINT gear.  Scroll to the bottom. 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/160146-us-marine-corps-vmb-612-squadron-patch-grouping/ 

Lone Star's Tiny Tim conversion provides only one of the white radomes. 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1427733247/Need+help-+PBJ-1+and+Tiny+Tim+rockets

 

   The book mentions that all PB-1s sent to the Pacific were further modified and painted midnight blue in Hawaii on page 67, but this is belied with a photo of a VMB-413 PBJ-1D in the Tri colored scheme on page 71.  Perhaps those pained midnight blue were painted in Hawaii. The PBJ-1H was not popular as firing the cannon tended to blind the pilot during pulling up. The H model eliminated the co-pilot's position. VMB-614 had the PBJ-1H while stationed at Midway but replaced them with eight gun nose PBJ-1Js in November 1944. They did not see combat. 

  The considerable weight of the radio and search equipment meant that bomb load was reduced as well as mission effectiveness. Night operations required less defensive armament which permitted removal of the  top turret and side blister gun packs, which permitted greater fuel load with as much as a 400 mile reserve after a 10 hour mission.

 

The VMB-613 site has photos with the wing tip radome.

Lone Star provides resin radomes in 1/48 and 1/72

 

Grant

[Troy Smith]

There is some info on Tiny Tim usage with photos here

 

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/26520.aspx

 

this is the  best shot so far I have found of the radar pod

 

[modelglue]

Seeing the pod from this vantage has me wondering if a Radar pod from a P-38 nightfighter might be viable? 

 

I took a gander through the Osprey pubs book concerning the PBJ units, and sadly did not see any overall GSB or NSSB variants of the J type with the 8-gun nose. Only one tri-color scheme. That isn't to say they never existed, but we have no proof yet. I will be sticking with the Devil Dog scheme, as I went ahead and purchased the decals in full faith that it was a historical example. It did not occur to me that the manufacturer would create a scheme alongside a historical one which is actually contemporary.

 

Thanks for the input all, very helpful dialogue.

[Troy Smith]

Yes, the P-38 radar pod is also possible, I think it's the same type/size....  it looks it.

(I find posting stuff like this that maybe cobblers winkles out proper  answers   

Where's  Dana when you need him...)

Otherwise, try hyperscale plane talking, they have a larger US readership.

[72modeler]

On 9/16/2016 at 3:33 PM, Seahawk said:

I've not heard of  a  Naval 'H' model.

There are photos of PBJ-1H's in the PTO- I forget which units flew them, but you can do a photo search for them. I seem to recall some photos of a PBJ-1H being flown off of a carrier by Rob Elder, I believe, and there are photos of that airplane. Perhaps @Tailspin Turtle can shed more light on the subject. I have attached a link to a photo of a PBJ-1G- the photo caption  has it listed as a -1H, but that can't be right as the dorsal turret is not correct for a -1H. IIRC, the Marines had a few -1G's that were used for trials, but I don't know if any were used in combat. Tailspin Turtle would know. PBJ's look so mean in the tri-scheme (or is that more correctly quad?) colors!

Mike

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/pbj-1h-guns.47913/

Edited September 2, 2019 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[Seahawk]

30 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

There are photos of PBJ-1H's in the PTO- I forget which units flew them, ...

VMB-613.  See my post 30.

[Tailspin Turtle]

4 hours ago, 72modeler said:

There are photos of PBJ-1H's in the PTO- I forget which units flew them, but you can do a photo search for them. I seem to recall some photos of a PBJ-1H being flown off of a carrier by Rob Elder, I believe, and there are photos of that airplane. Perhaps @Tailspin Turtle can shed more light on the subject. I have attached a link to a photo of a PBJ-1G- the photo caption  has it listed as a -1H, but that can't be right as the dorsal turret is not correct for a -1H. IIRC, the Marines had a few -1G's that were used for trials, but I don't know if any were used in combat. Tailspin Turtle would know. PBJ's look so mean in the tri-scheme (or is that more correctly quad?) colors!

Mike

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/pbj-1h-guns.47913/

The carrier trials PBJ-1H was BuNo. 35277 (ex-USAF-B-25H-43-4700) flying to and from USS Shangri-La (CV-38) on 15 November 1944, during the Ship Experimental Unit of Naval Aircraft Factory test of this type. At that time the Unit was also testing the P-51 and the F7F Tigercat. Pilot was LCDR Syd Bottomley, who made two traps and catapult shots (possibly the second set was made on the 16th).

[EwenS]

Another publication you might be able to track down is Jerry Scutt’s “Marine Mitchell’s in World War Two” by Phalanx Publications in the US. There is a whole chapter devoted to VMB-612. According to that VMB-612 had its aircraft repainted overall blue before leaving the US in late 1944, and replacements were similarly coloured. It’s aircraft were distinctly non-standard due their operating at night, first from Saipan and then later from Iwo Jima and Okinawa. 

 

They started with PBJ-1D and began to receive -1Js in March 1945. Many of their aircraft lost their mid upper turrets and gained ECM and tail radar. The squadron had a preference for a nose mounted radar, even on the late model -1J.

[Otakar]

I have that book and it is an excellent book. Many good examples. All the marine PBJ aircraft had very simple markings and therefore there have never been any 1/48 decals available in 1/48.