McLaren Honda MP4/6 Ayrton Senna 1/12

[Martin S.]

Hello Roy
I am not in the forum yet. Your BB from 4-6 is wonderful. Their detail accuracy is remarkable. This will be an excellent model and will get some prizes. Unfortunately this project is on ice. However, the purchase of a rotary milling machine is definitely worth it. I have the same set at home. I'm not ready to start this model with my skills as a modeler. I'm still looking for reverence material. If you can help me, I would be very grateful.

Martin

[Redstaff]

Following this with interest as I have a couple of Mclarens to build albeit in 1/20 scale though

It got me thinking though, years ago before I got married and moved out of my parents I know I had a Tamiya 1/12 Renault RE20 turbo and I don't remember ever building it

Wonder what happened to it, whether it is in the loft or still over there in their loft 🤔 must do some investigation at some point

[JCH]

Roy,

 

As so many have said, WOW!  Beautiful work and extremely helpful.  I too am organizing a build of the Tamiya McLaren MP4/6 with the full set of Top Studio detail parts.  I'm not likely to achieve your build quality but I have something for which to strive.

 

The Top Studio manual doesn't include wire lengths.  How did you deduce these lengths?  Page 16 of the Top Studio manual has lengths for the heat shrink of the main wire harness, but not lengths of the individual wires.  I'm also having a hard time with some of the source/destination of a few wires, but I think that will just take some more time.  

 

Yours in all things Mclaren,

Jacque

[harveyb258]

57 minutes ago, JCH said:

s.  How did you deduce these lengths?

I wouldn't worry about the lengths, at this moment in time, tbh. Just leave plenty of length on harness and cut back to suit. Much like modern electricians do, but without leaving offcuts all over the floor

 

I look forward to seeing your progress on this legendary car.

 

Cheers, H

[JCH]

Harveyb258,

 

In the grand scheme of things, wire is cheap.  If I have to buy more it won't be the end of the world.  The Tamiya instructions always provide the precise length.  Thanks for the response.

 

Jacque

[Stalker6Recon]

What happened? ☹️

[Roy vd M.]

Thank you guys for your interest in this build. As for me, the situation has not changed as to how I described it in this post, albeit that I believe I'll reprise work on this build as a future 'shelf queen' project as I have started working on 'another' Honda project on scale 1/12, very simple and out of box, to help me get through the almost overwhelming research and preparation phase of in the Delage build. One Honda could lead to renewed interest in another 'Honda'.

 

I'm building the 1/12 Tamiya Honda RA273 car together with my 7,5 year old daughter Karmijn. As that build is proceeding quite fast (as a fun in between project), I only use video logs as medium and as they are in Dutch, I did not share them on Britmodeller. For those who are interested though, feel invited to have a look at the videos. If they looks nice and you want to keep yourself updated, Karmijn and I would be very pleased if you subscribed to our Youtube channel. If there are a few people (let's say, five or more) who are interested in having subtitles, I could probably implement those. 

 

Some links:

- Delage 15-S-8 scratch building project: see this topic. 

- My Youtube channel containing videos about the 1/12 Honda RA273 build as well as the Delage build: see here.

- Latest video, about preparing the rims of the Honda: here. 

[Spookytooth]

Good to see that the build is there Roy.

And excellent news that your young daughter is taking on the hobby.

 

Regards Simon.

[Stalker6Recon]

I second that. Now I have to ask, was the attention to detail based on the build being a commission? Or for competition?

 

As a guy returning to model building after thirty years, I have seen the hobby become an artform, you are an artist, no doubt. I have seen details that challenge the mind between real and miniature. Some go to extremes for accuracy, and this build is one of those times. I want to build realistic models since I know that my builds (military aircraft) represent real aircraft, with accurate names stenciled along the canopy or on a bay door, sometimes of men who lost their lives. But having said that, I can only do so much before my passion becomes an obsession and the fun is drained away. I don't want to go through that, I already have enough mental problems from my time in the military and injuries. More over, I don't want to see anyone else go through it either, after all, this is a hobby and meant to be fun.

 

Nothing could make me happier to see that you have begun building with your daughter, just building for the love of the craft. I bought my wife a Ducati Panigale so she could learn to build with me as I build a Yamaha R1M by Tamiya. I too bought a detail set from Top Studio, they have created some phenomenal details for scale automotive kits, amazing stuff. That is how I found this thread, looking for other people's experiences and impressions regarding their products. Curious if I made a wise choice, or did I just add stress in a place I don't need any.

 

Anyway, I will say this, anyone that sees just this thread will recognize a master builder, you have skills that are one in a million and you have absolutely nothing to prove or need to impress, you have all that you can get already. We would be impressed with a straight OOB build my friend, please just enjoy it!

 

I hope you understand my message and intent, but most of all, I hope you have fun for the sake of fun itself.

 

Cheers my friend,

 

Anthony

[Roy vd M.]

Hi Anthony, 

@Stalker6Recon

 

On 7/24/2019 at 3:42 PM, Stalker6Recon said:

Now I have to ask, was the attention to detail based on the build being a commission? Or for competition?

Neither, really. Sometimes I like modelling out of box, just for the sake of fun. But sometimes I find fun in trying to replicate as precisely as I can what I see. That's why I started the Delage build. It's also why I gave up on the Fiat 806 project... for me personally it's frustrating to know not everything can be replicated as only few drawings and photographs have survived. However I marvel at what some builders like Olivier, Hannes and now Harvey have achieved. Through measuring, seeing and making intelligent guesses they have created stupendous models c.q. are in the midst of doing so. 

 

On 7/24/2019 at 3:42 PM, Stalker6Recon said:

But having said that, I can only do so much before my passion becomes an obsession and the fun is drained away.

That's why I'm having a break from the Delage project, picking up an out of box build. At one point in time, not too far away, I know for sure that I'll miss the detailing. I know myself

 

On 7/24/2019 at 3:42 PM, Stalker6Recon said:

Nothing could make me happier to see that you have begun building with your daughter, just building for the love of the craft.

That's nice of you to say. Today I added subtitles to one of my videos and I intend to create a topic on the Honda build on this forum. See here and click 'subtitles' to see the video and finally understand it If people like this I'll probably go on and add subtitles to future videos, limited to the on-screen tips. Each video contains some tips and they are the most useful to translate; translating everything takes about an hour so that's not really an option realistically speaking. 

 

On 7/24/2019 at 3:42 PM, Stalker6Recon said:

Curious if I made a wise choice, or did I just add stress in a place I don't need any.

It's usually not necessary to add detail to a kit; 93% of the result is generated through 7% of the out-of-box work. If you want to get those last remaining 7%, prepare for 93% of extra work. It's not always worth it. Just do whatever makes you feel happy and don't feel committed to one choice or the other. 

[Stalker6Recon]

4 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

not necessary to add detail to a kit;

I actually agree with that sentiment, but you would know that the larger tblhe scale, the more detail there needs to be, or you end up with voids of nothing, if you know what I mean. With the bikes, I saw a video of another master builder doing another bike. He had the kit parts next to the Top Studio parts, the difference was night an day, if night was on Pluto and day on Mercury. To challenge myself, I bought the set. His creation looked so real, I questioned whether the key would turn, or the starter would kick over the tiny four cylinder engine. Amazing.

 

I have so much to learn, getting an aid for detail is one thing, sort of a cheat. The next challenge is scratch building missing parts, or replicating parts just to learn. That will be the goal I set after the bike build. Maybe sooner, as I try to hone skills before I feel worthy to tackle the Yamaha beast. PE, resin, it's all new to me, the whole game has changed since my last build in the 80's, but I have to start somewhere.

 

I will check out the video with subs, it may be a different genre, but the skills are the same, I am sure that I can gain knowledge from the video, which is as important as entertaining, on equal parts.

 

Thanks for getting back to me, happy modeling!

 

Anthony

[Roy vd M.]

17 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

I actually agree with that sentiment, but you would know that the larger tblhe scale, the more detail there needs to be, or you end up with voids of nothing, if you know what I mean.

It depends on the quality of the kit. I have seen the detail on this Honda kit (issued 1967!!!) and am quite happy by its detail. This is an example of a finished build by another builder; behold!

 

 

 

Of course it could still be detailed on but then I'd say we get to that 93%-7%-'rule'. Of course things are different with a kit like the one portrayed in this topic, the McLaren MP4/6. For that kit a splendid aftermarket set was made and then the 93%-7% rule does not apply, because you don't have to make all the little extras as they have already been preproduced for you by Top Studio. For the remaining 7% you only need 50% extra time or so. That makes it a more enjoyable overall experience.

 

Unfortunately when I'm busy building a kit like this, I also want to correct those minor imperfections that Top Studio missed (or, in this case I'm sure, thought would be a bad decision or very difficult or expensive to correct). For this build, whenever I'll reprise it, that will take some extra time on top of the aftermarket parts implementation. 

 

The Honda RA273 not having a Topstudio or alternate aftermarket upgrade set available as to my knowledge, plus seeing the OOB end result as shown above, I feel much comfortable with the thought of building it OOB, especially if that leads to my daughter and I spending nice and educational time together  

 

17 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

The next challenge is scratch building missing parts, or replicating parts just to learn.

Or drawing them in Fusion 360 and printing them. Have a look at my Delage introductory videos (click here for the first, here for the second) to see that learning Fusion 360 is not all that difficult. As things stand now I'm not the 3D-print type of guy (I like the mill and the lathe), but I'll never say never and I know it could make my life much easier. It probably is the future of scale modelling. 

 

17 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

PE, resin, it's all new to me, the whole game has changed since my last build in the 80's, but I have to start somewhere.

You're right about the game having been changed to a major extent. With all modelling sections removed from toy stores, who could have guessed the hobby is grander and greater with more opportunities than ever?!

 

17 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

I will check out the video with subs, it may be a different genre, but the skills are the same, I am sure that I can gain knowledge from the video, which is as important as entertaining, on equal parts.

 

You might like it because although it's a simple out of box build it is illustrated by several tips and tricks. If you know 95% of them, why not pick up the other 5%. Also what I'd like to emphasise is that if there is something really missing or prone to the fate of improvement, I'll do that. My criterium: if any part would look ugly, I'll try to improve it. Also I'll do my best to follow the rules of nice alignment and dryfit and Karmijn and I will try to apply a nice paintjob. 

 

Ontopic, regarding the McLaren MP4/6 I really hope all small parts have survived our moving houses. If the Honda is finished and if I still won't feel like getting back to the Delage workbench (although I coincidentally worked on the Delage this week) I might as well resume the MP4/6 build for awhile. It's an awesome kit with an even more awesome set of aftermarket stuff of course, based on an even more awesome section of Formula 1 history, so it's definitely on my mind. But I can never tell beforehand what I'll want to do in the (near) future. I simply follow my nose to where in my mind the fun is from time to time.  

 

[xffw45343tg]

38 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

I might as well resume the MP4/6 build for a while

Yay!

[Stalker6Recon]

1 hour ago, Roy vd M. said:

drawing them in Fusion 360

All that looks cool, but you first need a computer, mine is broken. The other options you mention, like a lathe, how I would love to have one of those. But for a guy that is just getting back into model building, who has a very small budget to work with, and I mean small, less than 50 dollars a month, it's difficult to try and buy the big ticket items, when I know it doesn't get me any closer to my first build. Small things like paint, glue, sanding tools etc, which will help get my first build going take the priority and the money. All that cool stuff has got to wait. I am torn about not having a computer, the upfront cost of that will destroy my model making budget from now until Christmas. Not an option I want to take, since building also helps me with my military disabilities that I suffer from. So for now, I do all my online work on my phone, sucks, but it's better than nothing.

 

One day, maybe those will be an option for me, but I won't be holding my breath.

 

By the way, that first GP car is gorgeous, shocking that it was made in the 60's.

1 hour ago, Roy vd M. said:

who could have guessed the hobby is grander and greater with more opportunities than ever?! 

Agreed. When I left the USA for the last time, the only model shop nearby had already shut its doors. When I arrived in the Philippines, I thought the option to build models, was dead on arrival. I was fortunate back in 2013 to have extra money and someone kind enough to ship me boxes from the USA. I went on a bit of a spending spree for items not found here. I got an airbrush and compressor, along with other tools for carpentry work. Anyway, I tried to get back into building for the last decade, but our choice to rescue cats took over the budget, and having cats around models is scary at best. Now we have changed our life direction, accepted that we can no longer afford to rescue cats, both financially and emotionally, that we have reclaimed our home. I finally have the circumstances to build, but lack the money to buy what I need. As you said, even though the local stores have closed, which is sad, the hobby has exploded with new manufacturers and aftermarket accessories that take realism to a whole new level. The hobby is thriving for the most part. That is cause for celebration itself.

 

Finally, I agree, that era of F1 was phenomenal. True drivers like Senna did incredible things with a car. Have you seen the documentary about his life? It's awesome and sad all at once. If that doesn't make you cry, nothing will.

 

I really hope to see you complete this build, when you are ready. I am confident that it will be more than spectacular for the world to see it, even if you feel less than gratified by your work. We are our own worst critics at times. Sometimes, you need to shut that out and just enjoy what others have to say. Most us are incapable of such perfection, and we want to be. It's just not in our bag of skills. So even on your worst day, your work is still awe inspiring and beyond the reach of the common man. So just enjoy knowing that it will be loved by more people than you can count, I am one of those people. But only do so, when you have the right frame of mind and a smile on your face the entire time she is on the bench.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony

[JCH]

Roy,

 

Sorry to hit your thread again but I have a couple questions. 

 

The sole photograph I have, of the real car, under the the air funnel of the air intake horns that sit atop the injectors are gloss black.  Both Top Studio, turned aluminium,  and Tamiya, plated chrome, and all completed models are silver.  

1. Do you have any reference photos with silver horns?
2. Had you considered the color of the horns?  If so, what? (I ask based on your possible research, not to copy your work.)

My reference picture.  I'm unsure the date of this picture.  It's possible from the McLaren factory so a later build/rebuild.  The tape atop the oil reservoir and the wheel chuck are strong indicators.  But other clues such as the retaining plates atop the spark plug assembly appear period correct. 

 

Many thank,

JCH

Edited September 27, 2019 by JCH

[xffw45343tg]

JCH - just off the top of my head, I seem to recall reading about an evolution of the engine which had variable intake trumpets - looking at your picture, this seems very likely; The torque bars outboard of the trumpets, the black actuator outside the plenum tray and the apparent concentric trumpets. Chances are the "silver" version is the fixed length aluminium alloy intakes. Are you able to date your picture? I could compare it against the Autocourse for that year.

 

Cheers,

Kirk

[JCH]

Roy et al,

 

I found this in my picture collection.  While not the same engine, it does demonstrate that during this period the air horns/trumpets were polished silver.  

 

I also found this one in my collection.  You can just see over the top of the plenum on the engine in the back the silver horns:

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by JCH

[xffw45343tg]

From my notes, USA was 1st GP of the year and the new spec RA121E engine came in at the 10th - Hungary.

[SlowQ]

Roy et al 

 

Firstly a Hi. I’m glad you are still in the MP4/6 game. I’m not sure if this will help but this Youtube video does show the silver trumpets. However this car my well be a composite of an actual race car configuration. 

 

Regards and and best wishes.

 

 

[Roy vd M.]

Hi @JCH, 

 

Going through my archive I found the following photos. First, on (my version of) the manual: 

 

 

 

The other ones are from this book: 

 

 

All who read this post and who are interested in this subject, please buy the book and let the images hereunder be inspirations to do so. No copyright infringement intended, the following pictures are for educational and referential purposes only and will be deleted upon first request.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And then there's this image of which I'm not sure where I found it. 

 

 

 

I don't know the dates these photos were taken and my book is in a box a bit out of my reach (moving...). The above pictures were scanned and sorted into several (sub)maps for quick comparison and reference.

 

If you are really interested I'll look up the book and try to find any info about the date(s), just let me know. 

[JCH]

Roy,

 

These are excellent and most helpful.  The Tamiya black box edition of this model doesn't include the reference pictures, no cover art either.  Now I'm wondering where I found the the pic of the with the gloss black horns.

 

In an effort to save a bit of money I only purchased the Joe Honda MP4/6 reference book.  While it contains several good reference pictures none are a clear as the Close-up History.  Time for a bit of internet searching.  Oh, and definitely polished silver!

 

JCH