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PR Spitfires in 1/48th


Simon Cornes

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Can anyone clarify a couple of things for me regarding the PRXI.

Firstly, does anyone know of a decal manufacturer who does this mark, RAF decals not USAAF?

Secondly, the restored PRXI PL965 has a fully framed windscreen like a Mk IX. Is it a case that some were built like this and others had the one piece PR screen? This intrigues me!! I know, "get out 'The History' " but someone may be able to give me a quick answer!

Thanks

Simon

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Don't know for sure of any RAF decals in 48th for the PR.XI unfortunately but Freightdog did a sheet in 72nd scale with a few examples so that may also have been available in 48th.

As for PL965; so far as I've read this one would have had the clear single piece windscreen but there wasn't one available during the restoration.

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Thanks Col, well thats cleared that up then!! You'd think they could get one from the BBMF? I assume the PRXIX screen/canopy is the same?

Thanks for the suggestion re Freightdog. I don't think Colin did it in 1/48th? Might be worth asking him though!!

Simon

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I assume the PRXIX screen/canopy is the same?

Actually I'm not sure that it is, especially (or "at least") for the pressure ones. I believe (memory!) that PR.Xs (not XIs) had fighter windscreens, since they were derived from F.VIIs. But the PR.XI definitely had a PR windscreen in service. The Falcon Spitfire canopy set must have one, if you want to go that route.

[Edit to change "Squadron" to "Falcon"]

Edited by gingerbob
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Thanks ginger bob but I am using one from the Falcon set - which actually includes to screens but neither aimed at the Arai VIII kit that I am renovating - but a Spit windscreen should fit any kit and its not doing to badly!! Thanks Troff for the MA heads up. I've just had a look but there's nothing there that will do - I want to produce an all over PRU Blue machine used in the European Theatre so I think I just need the Type B roundels and then a serial in white. I think I've asked about this before but are we talking 6" serial numbers? I think so, which makes it a problem to adapt numbers from a non- 1/48th sheet as the 1/72nd alternative would be 9" high!! I wonder if I could get away with it though? This is where I could do with the likes of Fantasy doing white 6" serials - must just check the site......Mmm maybe FP804 / 48-002 might do it as it includes a 400 Squadron PRXI but no serial numbers .

I think he first issue is finding a photo and then finding a set of serial numbers. If you can offer any ideas on that then it would be appreciated!

Thanks

Simon

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regarding the fighter vs PR windscreen, I asked this question of the Spitfire PR XI pilot at an airshow, he said, safety and insurance, against birdstrike.

A quick check shows this was PL965, in 2004.

You might well get way with using 1/72nd 8 inch letters/numerals, which Modeldecal do, or did, I have the remains of a sheet with different sizes, but not to hand to check if suitable.

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regarding the fighter vs PR windscreen, I asked this question of the Spitfire PR XI pilot at an airshow, he said, safety and insurance, against birdstrike.

A quick check shows this was PL965, in 2004.

You might well get way with using 1/72nd 8 inch letters/numerals, which Modeldecal do, or did, I have the remains of a sheet with different sizes, but not to hand to check if suitable.

Thanks Troy. 8" works out at 5.3" in 1/48th so a bit small. I'm surprised that this aspect of the Spitfire hasn't been catered for already! The stuff Colin at Freightdog did was very nice but only available in 1/72nd it seems.

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Another question - I'm wondering if someone can help out in a practical way? This PRXI I am completing has 5 camera windows. I am no great fan of Krystal Klear and the like but I have to glaze here apertures. If I can confirm the sizes, does anyone have a Waldron punch or similar and could punch out the glazing in clear styrene?

I've just checked the price of Waldron punches - gulp!! It would really make more sense to me if I could have some done by someone who is already equipped!! Failing that I will just have to use a new blade in the scalpel and have a go at cutting out some 'almost circular' bits of plastic!!

Thanks

Simon

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Simon

the pragmatic approach in this case, with a refurb kit, is try Kristal Kleer first, even as a tester, and if unhappy. then look at alternatives,

eg asking if anyone has leftover ones from a PR XIX conversion would be my starter, or making larger holes with a drill bit that matches a cheap punch size, and then masking the aperture.

eg these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Silverline-6PC-Hollow-Punch-Set-Leather-Rubber-Plastic-Sizes-3-4-5-6-7-8mm-/272322551398?hash=item3f67b05e66:g:BYAAAOSw9N1VlkQI

s-l500.jpg

£3.50 PP

i have some, they work. they make better discs than holes in plastic card BTW

You can make a basic punch set like the Waldron with perspex and use the back end of fine drill bits, this also works.

Off hand I can't remember the camera window aperture size, but the above will give yo approx 6, 8 and 10 inch discs (3, 4 , 5 mm respectively)

quick google....

A while back I measured the Cooke plans it seems.....

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234921579-fr-mk-ix-camera-port-question/

I got 5/32 nd's inch, which is 3.96mm...so a 4mm punch looks to be about right (tip -post cobblers and someone will post the correct info :whistle:)

regarding the serial, yes, 8 inch 1/72 = 5.3 inch 1/48, but as it's small, and would be the same size it may not notice , again try the easier option first.

HTH

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Hi Simon,

Regarding markings, I am away from my references just now but the red/blue roundels I used on my FRIX were approximately 40" diameter for the upper wings and 30" for the fuselage. Xtra Decals (and others) used to have a dedicated Type B roundel sheet with various sizes which would work.

As for the camera openings, most of the airborne cameras in use had (again, approximately) a 6" diameter lens; on my PR builds,I use a 1/8" tube for the camera lens, and I use a 3/16 drill bit for the clear lens cover on the airframe. That works out to about 9" in real life. I generally start with a smaller bit so I can adjust the opening as I enlarge it if I didn't get it quite centered to begin with. Having done several Spitfire PR conversions without the accessories around today, I will also note that you can sand the inside surfaces of the hole for the two fuselage cameras pointing down, and add clear sheet on the inside of those two holes. This works for me since those two openings are slightly recessed into the lower fuselage to keep the glass clear of oil and dirt from leaking engine fluids.

Good luck and I hope we will see pictures in the near future!

Cheers, Jim

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Firstly, thanks Troy - I ordered a set of those punches this morning - it would be rude not to at that price and post free to! Regarding Waldron punches, how do they work? I am getting the idea that you put the sheet to be punched between two sheets of thick perspex which are pre-drilled with holes which line up and then the punch is hollow but with sharp edges and you slide it down the tube drilled in the top perspex sheet and it cuts the paper or card? That's my guess but perhaps you can confirm?

Thanks Bedders - I think it was only the FAA who used 4" serials (but I stand to be corrected!!)

Hi Jim

The National markings are no problem - I have a set of Xtradecal 1/48th Type B but the only snag then is the fin flash - which corresponds with the C1 fuselage roundel - so more of a snag. I have some Modeldecal fin flash decal strip so there might be a suitable size but I normally prefer to use decals from one manufacturer in the hope that the red and blue are the same shades! Wow, that sounds a very precise way of making camera apertures, thank you for detailing it!

am hoping that Troy's recommended punches will allow me to cut some discs from thin acetate and a thin line of PVA should then attach them - and I am much happier doing that than using KK !!

Thanks for the info guys - time to slap on some PRU Blue (onto the Spit - not me!!)

Simon

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Another question - I'm wondering if someone can help out in a practical way? This PRXI I am completing has 5 camera windows. I am no great fan of Krystal Klear and the like but I have to glaze here apertures. If I can confirm the sizes, does anyone have a Waldron punch or similar and could punch out the glazing in clear styrene?

nks

Simon

Hi, Simon,

What I have actually done in my PR builds (there are several around in HS) is a dirty but workable method:

1) For ventral cameras: cut a slice of the roundest clear sprue I could find of about the correct size. Then, open the porthole for it and insert. When polished on the outer side, and painted in Black for the "tube" and a two coat GunMetal plus Tamiya Clear Green or Blue on the other side, it looks like a convincing lens. Even if you decide to open the compartment, the "box" containing the actual cameras will hide the construct finely.

2) For the glazed openings in the oblique cameras. If you are leaving the inspection hatch closed, the same method works (even so you'll have to make a mimick of the camera body and mounting because something can be deemed over the seat and mounting frame) If you decide to open the hatch: what I have done is raiding the "box of doom" for round landing lights of an approximate size. They work.

Hope that helps (and does not sound like dirty cheating)

Fernando

PD: regarding the inordinately small fin flashes present in PR machines, I have resorted to 1/72 flashes.

Edited by Fernando
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Thanks for ta=hat Fernando, not dirty cheating at all and makes great sense. sadly I don't have any sprue or rod thick enough! 1/72nd fin flashes eh? That works out at 16" square, must check to see what the right size is!!

Simon

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Here's an old architectural modelmaking trick for cutting round windows:- you take a block of perspex, drill through it and then cut a slot half way through wide enough for the clear acetate to slide in, then the blunt end of the drill if you just press it against a grinding wheel carefully not overheating it to make the square edge 'sharp' then place the clear material in, slide the blunt end of the drill into the block then hit the now sharp end of the drill with a block of wood and it will punch out a neat disc. This is harder to explain than actually do! Graham

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I see what you mean Graham - I get the impression that's how the Waldron punches work but I haven't seen one in the metal so to speak!

I'm going to have a go with the cheap and cheerful hollow punches that Troy mentioned - on the basis that I want 5 decent discs so if I have an A4 sheet of acetate then I should be able to get 5 decent ones before I run out!! If I was building this kit from new then the idea of a solid piece of clear styrene rod would make the most sense but I am renovating an already assembled kit so a dab of ova around the opening and a temporary attachment to the disc with a pedicle of blue tack could well do the job!

Simon

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Simon, I've now had the chance to check the diagram in Morgan & Schacklady p239 which suggests that serials are 4in high, 2.5in wide and with a stroke of .5in. M&S could be wrong, but that was what sparked my earlier post.

Justin

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Simon, I've now had the chance to check the diagram in Morgan & Schacklady p239 which suggests that serials are 4in high, 2.5in wide and with a stroke of .5in. M&S could be wrong, but that was what sparked my earlier post.

Justin

Hi Justin

I was about to add a contrite response to your earlier post because jaw told me they were 4" and then I read in MDF 3 that they are 4", either white or MSG. This evening I discovered the Xtradecal sheet in 1/48 which includes white 4" serials so thats on its way. I also ordered a set of Type A roundels as that also includes equal width fin flashes and the PR Spits seemed to have either those, C type or B type flashes. I must say that its a bit of a snag that Xtradecal don't include fin flash material with their B type roundel sheet. I'm not sure which markings to go for but I'd decided on a 16 Sqdn machine in overall blue and no D-day markings but I've just noticed it has an early short chord rudder! Hopefully 16 had some XI's with broad chord rudders as well!

Thanks

Simon

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I think that the windscreen and hood of XI was slightly flat at the top.
The windscreen of PRU pressure cabin(XIX) was conical so the section was rounded and the hood was higher at the forward

windsc10.jpg

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BS_w wow that's definitive!!

I think I have decided on finishing mine as PL965 'R' but pre D-Day so overall PRU Blue. I notice that a lot of prints show this machine with a PRU blue spinner whereas a lot of airframes have black spinners so I'm wondering if it should be black or blue? I know the real machine now has a large (24" ?) letter 'R' behind the serial but that would be obscured by the D Day markings so is that why it is shown below the serial when the black and white bands are applied? Or is it a case of having the small R earlier in 1944 ? Also I think the real machine now has the R under the nose but again I assume thats a post D Day alteration? I know that when 16 Squadron was based in Belgium the aircraft had Type C1 roundels every where. Does anyone know why that is?

Thanks

Simon

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Firstly, thanks Troy - I ordered a set of those punches this morning - it would be rude not to at that price and post free to! Regarding Waldron punches, how do they work? I am getting the idea that you put the sheet to be punched between two sheets of thick perspex which are pre-drilled with holes which line up and then the punch is hollow but with sharp edges and you slide it down the tube drilled in the top perspex sheet and it cuts the paper or card? That's my guess but perhaps you can confirm?

Thanks Bedders - I think it was only the FAA who used 4" serials (but I stand to be corrected!!)

Hi Jim

The National markings are no problem - I have a set of Xtradecal 1/48th Type B but the only snag then is the fin flash - which corresponds with the C1 fuselage roundel - so more of a snag. I have some Modeldecal fin flash decal strip so there might be a suitable size but I normally prefer to use decals from one manufacturer in the hope that the red and blue are the same shades! Wow, that sounds a very precise way of making camera apertures, thank you for detailing it!

am hoping that Troy's recommended punches will allow me to cut some discs from thin acetate and a thin line of PVA should then attach them - and I am much happier doing that than using KK !!

Thanks for the info guys - time to slap on some PRU Blue (onto the Spit - not me!!)

Simon

I think the Waldon set has a metal base plate, (part of the high cost) but essentially that's correct.

I used perspex as I had some, and would not have been able to drill metal easily.

I used some brass tube to make alignment pegs for the two sheets of perspex.

Here's an old architectural modelmaking trick for cutting round windows:- you take a block of perspex, drill through it and then cut a slot half way through wide enough for the clear acetate to slide in, then the blunt end of the drill if you just press it against a grinding wheel carefully not overheating it to make the square edge 'sharp' then place the clear material in, slide the blunt end of the drill into the block then hit the now sharp end of the drill with a block of wood and it will punch out a neat disc. This is harder to explain than actually do! Graham

neat tip ;)

BS_w wow that's definitive!!

I think I have decided on finishing mine as PL965 'R' but pre D-Day so overall PRU Blue. I notice that a lot of prints show this machine with a PRU blue spinner whereas a lot of airframes have black spinners so I'm wondering if it should be black or blue? I know the real machine now has a large (24" ?) letter 'R' behind the serial but that would be obscured by the D Day markings so is that why it is shown below the serial when the black and white bands are applied? Or is it a case of having the small R earlier in 1944 ? Also I think the real machine now has the R under the nose but again I assume thats a post D Day alteration? I know that when 16 Squadron was based in Belgium the aircraft had Type C1 roundels every where. Does anyone know why that is?

Thanks

Simon

C1 roundels in all position was a standard marking on 2nd TAF aircraft from January 1945, due to 'friendly fire' incidents.

Etienne's Flickr has a few colour shots of PR Spits

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=spitfire

most have black spinners, the one in Italy are PRU blue, the larger rudder was probably retrofitted,

ths one from nov 1943

https://flic.kr/p/8YmYcu

5232312442_f9dc973939_b.jpgSpitfire PR XI Nov. 1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

has original rudder, the later planes have the later rudder.

this shot

https://flic.kr/p/apXZcR

6178413915_c1340f11f5_b.jpgP.R. Spitfire 1944. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

shows the serial clearly, and note the fin flash, looks to have the usual 2 inch white, but reduced areas of red and blue, perhaps cut down a standard flash?

from same series, note 'w' under nose

6777568435_37de0b37de_b.jpgSpitfire PR mk. XI's by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

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Thanks Troy - I can rely on you to come up with a detailed answer!! I was originally going to finish mine as EN654 until I realised it had the early rudder!! Interesting that it has a type A fin flash though? Wonder of there are any photos from around about May 1944? Would be interesting to see how the ID letter was tackled but I suspect a full size (24" ?) letter - but then EN654 has no ID letter whatsoever so maybe the 4" letter? Also I notice the small wing roundels - 35" ? which are spaced in between the aileron and the black 'no walk' line. Mustn't forget to drill a hole in the port leading edge root.

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