RAF Beret

[PlasticSoldier]

Hi,

Just a quick question,

I know a fair bit about RAF uniform, and as I was doing a Battle of Britain Diorama, my knowledge proved to be quite useful. However, Airfix seems to give most of it's RAF drivers berets with them wearing overalls.

As far as I know, berets in the RAF are meant to be worn only with combat dress, and it would be forage caps worn with something like overalls. Am I right, or were berets worn with overalls as well? On google I can only see forage caps.

Many thanks,

PlasticSoldier

[DavidJ]

I asked the same question myself and was told by ex-RAF chaps that berets would only have been worn by RAF Regiment troops. Drivers, etc wore forage caps.

Cheers

David

[Ascoteer]

That's not strictly true. I have several wartime photographs of my late father, an NCO pilot wearing a beret.

[TimB]

I vaguely remember reading that 2ATAF generally wore berets, as they were "tactical". The RAF Regiment only formed mid-war, and I doubt if the beret was worn at all during the BoB. Incidentally, the argument on berets v forage caps v SD hats was still going string in the 1980s, with the RAF SH and Harrier Sqns wearing berets and RAF Regt and SWOs objecting...

Regards

Tim

[Selwyn]

I vaguely remember reading that 2ATAF generally wore berets, as they were "tactical". The RAF Regiment only formed mid-war, and I doubt if the beret was worn at all during the BoB. Incidentally, the argument on berets v forage caps v SD hats was still going string in the 1980s, with the RAF SH and Harrier Sqns wearing berets and RAF Regt and SWOs objecting...

Regards

Tim

In the 1980's the official No2 RAF headgear was the beret. The Forage cap could be worn instead but you had to purchase your own. Nobody really cared which one you wore in your day to day uniform.

SD hats were No1 uniform and only wore with No2 if you were instructed as on a parade practice.

Selwyn

(Who incidentally found his old chip bag hat (Forage cap) when searching in the loft yesterday!)

[wyverns4]

Well, when I joined in 1981, (that seems soooooo long ago... ), my intake at RAF Swynderby were all issued the beret. The trade groups I remember in my intake were quite diverse and included RAF Regiment, (me!) and a bunch of penguins, (Stakas, ATC, Photographic, Faries, Dumpies, Sooties, GA's, Scribes and others that time has veiled from memory). The chip-bag was private purchase and no self respecting Rock would ever have one of those, other than officers, but 'nuff said!

Now awaiting incoming flack from Greg B...

Christian, ex-God's finest and exiled to africa

Edited August 22, 2016 by wyverns4

[Aeronut]

From my experience the RAF's rules on uniform are far from uniform. If asked to sum the situation up in three words, mix and match would come to mind.

[PLC1966]

Yep, we in the RAF were treated as adults and generally were expected to wear the right thing at the right time without needing to be told...........whereas our pongo colleagues.......

[PLC1966]

In the 1980's the official No2 RAF headgear was the beret. The Forage cap could be worn instead but you had to purchase your own. Nobody really cared which one you wore in your day to day uniform.

SD hats were No1 uniform and only wore with No2 if you were instructed as on a parade practice.

Selwyn

(Who incidentally found his old chip bag hat (Forage cap) when searching in the loft yesterday!)

Blimey Selwyn, you paid for a chip hat and admitted it in public.

[Ascoteer]

When I joined in 1981 I was issued a beret and given a grant of ££ to buy my No1 Uniform.

The No2 hat for Officers was the chip bag for the guys and the pillbox for us.

Again we bought ours but I'm not sure whether the airwomen got the pillbox issued.

[Greg B]

Yep, we in the RAF were treated as adults and generally were expected to wear the right thing at the right time without needing to be told...........whereas our pongo colleagues.......

Are uniformly dressed as a military organisation.......

[Simon382]

As a 'penguin' (ATC) from 1990 it was berets all the way. The Station Warrant Officer found you wearing your no 1 hat..........you'd better have a damn good reason or the rest of the airfield would hear! Still, once in a blue moon would get a measure of satisfaction telling the same SWO to get his hat off as he was on the manouvering area!?! Like most SWO's I think he slept with that hat on

[PLC1966]

Are uniformly dressed as a military organisation.......

Need to be told how and what to do at all times.....

[Ascoteer]

Ah yes, upsetting SWOs, great fun...

When the 'upturned coal-scuttle' came in as the No2 hat for females in the mid '90s (why do we have to follow the Spams in everything? Even the modern combats are American), we were expected to shell out some £90 odd for the privilege.

I was damned if I was going to do that because:

1. Being an Albert driver I wore a green bag most of the time and said coal-scuttle wouldn't fit neatly into a flying suit pocket (unlike the pillbox hat).

2. Said coal-scuttle would invariably end up getting kicked around the flight deck and ruined in a matter of no time squared (this is also why I didn't take my No1 SD hat flying).

There is a QR somewhere that basically states that something is still uniform, even if it has recently gone out of service, as long as it is still serviceable.

Now my pillbox by this stage was starting to look a little 'shabby' (probably from having been screwed up and thrust into a flying suit pocket so many times), but hey I'm aircrew right? And you have to be good to be gash...

It fair drove the SWO appoplectic in powerless rage whenever he saw me.

Oh how I laughed.

Edit:

WRT berets, the latest issue ones are a darker blue felt than the old blue-grey ones.

Edit 2:

I only wore my issue beret at Cranditz on IOT (cos you had to have a white disc behind the badge indicating you were a Studet Officer / Officer Cadet) - it was utter rubbish because it would never shrink properly. The rest of the time when berets were worn (when wearing combats on Excercise or on ranges) I had a rather nifty beret from bought from Gieves & Hawkes. It got so much use (and rained on so often) that, by the time I left the Service, it had gone QARANC grey!

[Selwyn]

Blimey Selwyn, you paid for a chip hat and admitted it in public.

Thats a big assumption. It may have been a gift!

However, I do not subscribe to the opinion that some nasty people would have that as an armourer I probably nicked it!

Selwyn

[Graham Boak]

So when did dutts (sorry, berets) become the norm rather than the forage cap? I can see the argument about having them in 2TAF, but presumably they had to come from somewhere and continue in use until the Powers That Be decided to adopt them fully?

[Selwyn]

So when did dutts (sorry, berets) become the norm rather than the forage cap? I can see the argument about having them in 2TAF, but presumably they had to come from somewhere and continue in use until the Powers That Be decided to adopt them fully?

I cannot be definitive but think it was at the end of WW2. The main reason for the change was probably the fact that the UK was pretty much on its uppers at that point and saving cash was a priority, the beret was much cheaper to produce rather than the forage cap so a significant saving could be made.

Selwyn

[PLC1966]

Thats a big assumption. It may have been a gift!

However, I do not subscribe to the opinion that some nasty people would have that as an armourer I probably nicked it!

Selwyn

Fair point Selwyn. As an Armourer I would not be surprised if it had 'fallen into my hand Gov'...

[Jessica]

Here on the Left side of the oggin, men and women both wear the Wedge cap for most occasions requiring dress uniform:

Beanies are allowed if you have to wear Combats:

[Ascoteer]

The chip bag is now permissable for women this side of the Oggsplash. AP1358 refers.

[Howard Moon]

To answer PlasticSoldier's original question, the beret was introduced into the RAF Regiment in 1943 and gradually spread to other trades. It didn't become general issue until after the war. Just flicked through my 2ATAF books and can only see forage caps and the ocasional cap comforter. During the BoB, I'd have thought tin 'ats and gas capes would have been more common in 11 Group!

Regards

H

[Wez]

Yep, we in the RAF were treated as adults and generally were expected to wear the right thing at the right time without needing to be told...........whereas our pongo colleagues.......

Agreed

Are uniformly dressed as a military organisation.......

And we in the RAF were dressed in uniform...

From my experience the RAF's rules on uniform are far from uniform. If asked to sum the situation up in three words, mix and match would come to mind.

I was on RAF SH and worked with the army quite a lot, we applied the simple rule, you all wore uniform but no two shall dress alike! This really upset the army and was of course the very reason we did it! You'd quite often hear the RSM/GSM muttering "Why can't the RAF wear uniform"? We were, just not uniformly (where's the fun in that)?

So when did dutts (sorry, berets) become the norm rather than the forage cap? I can see the argument about having them in 2TAF, but presumably they had to come from somewhere and continue in use until the Powers That Be decided to adopt them fully?

I joined in the early 80's and we were all issued berets, if you look at post-war pictures, particularly in Germany, there's plenty of beret wearing going on there so I suspect the timing coincides with the formation of 2TAF and it became widespread after that. I expect the reason was economics at the end of the day, a beret must be far cheaper than a chip-hat to make... ...it's also more absorbent and better for mopping up spills!

[Pete in Lincs]

better for mopping up spills!

And beating out small engine bay fires.

In my experience, anyone who forked out for a chip hat and/or a stable belt

was viewed with suspicion. (Wages were not generous in the late 70's)

[wyverns4]

In my experience, anyone who forked out for a chip hat and/or a stable belt

was viewed with suspicion. (Wages were not generous in the late 70's)

Agreed!

Wages were still ungenerous up until 1991/1992 IIRc.

Christian, ex God's finest, (RAF Regiment)

Edited August 23, 2016 by wyverns4

[TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED]

The biggest culprit on this is Airfix ever since it issued it RAF Personnel in the late 1960's, all the personnel are in Battledress, which was not in use during the Battle of Britain, and did not generally come in to use until 1942/3.(early 1941 for Aircrew)

This did not stop Airfix using them in the Battle of Britain sets including vehicles that again did not enter service until 1942/3.

War service dress, also known as battle dress, was introduced in 1940 as a blue/grey version of the British Army's battle dress. Initially, war service dress was only worn by air crew. However, in 1943, its use was authorised for all ranks and trades. War service dress continued to be worn after the end of World War II. It was significantly altered in 1948 (I THINK THIS IS WHEN THE BERET WAS FIRST INTRODUCED FOR ALL RANKS AND TRADES) and not phased out until 1973.

Link to IWM on RAF FS Caps also known as Forage or Chip Hats

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30099972

So unless you were RAF Regiment the FS Cap was standard RAF working Headdress during the War with Berets becoming standard over a long period after the War and with the introduction of National Service in 1947.

By the early 1950 the Beret was the standard RAF working headdress, unless you purchased the FS out of your own pocket.

Edited August 23, 2016 by TIGER HOBBIESLIMITED