A desert scheme on RAF Oxford

[KRK4m]

During the war there were plenty of Airspeed Oxfords flying over the Mediterranean, North Africa and the Middle East (remember the Habbaniya siege), but I'm unable to find any photos of the RAF "Ox-box" in Desert (DE/MS) scheme - neither with Trainer Yellow nor with any "tactical" (Sky, Sky Blue, Azure) undersides.

There's a much-publicised photo of Mk.I P1940 with pale X forward of the A1 fuselage roundel and fin flash covering whole fin area

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ae/fe/68/aefe686aa4acd3d16582ecb3c0f6dc68.jpg

but it's description as "No 4 FTS Oxford in Habbaniyah, Egypt, 1941" makes me aware - Habbaniyah is 600 miles from Egypt The picture is orthochromatic (yellow roundel surround appears darker than red) thus the camouflage contrast is very weak (MS and LE contain much more yellow pigment than DG or DE). I also cannot say for sure, whether the undersides are Yellow or Sky (Blue or Type S), as the wing is in total shade due to the the very high (54 degrees to be exact, so more than 70 degrees aginst the wing of the taildragger Oxford) sun at noon.

This very Oxford has been recently kitted by the Czech Admiral (AZ) company and the scheme they propose is TLS (DG/DE) over Yellow with black serials under the wings - very dull indeed, as some 50% of Oxfords look this way.

https://scalaria.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/admiral-airspeedoxford1.jpg

Don't you think they're wrong? If the photo has been taken in Egypt in 1941 it should be DE/MS over Azure, while if in Habbaniyah it should be DG/LE over Yellow (4 FTS machine) or over Sky Blue (transport and communications a/c).

I'd like to know your opinion or/and to find other photos of the Oxfords from this area

Cheers

Michael

Edited May 15, 2022 by KRK4m

[stevehnz]

Fwiw & IMHO I reckon that is a yellow underside, if it were light blue, I think at least some reflection from the ground onto the wing underside would show so I believe the intense black is yellow with ortho film.

Steve

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 8/13/2016 at 6:45 PM, KRK4m said:

During the war there were plenty of Airspeed Oxfords flying over the Mediterranean, North Africa and the Middle East (remember the Habbaniya siege), but I'm unable to find any photos of the RAF "Ox-box" in Desert (DE/MS) or Tropical (DG/LE) scheme - neither with Trainer Yellow nor with any "tactical" (Sky, Sky Blue, Azure) undersides.

There's a much-publicised photo of Mk.I P1940 with pale X forward of the A1 fuselage roundel and fin flash covering whole fin area

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[bentwaters81tfw]

TLS was DE/MS. The underside would depend on the role. Yellow or Sky for comms, Azure for day fighters, Black for nightfighters. It all changed in '42.

[mhaselden]

The notation of the OP photo is somewhat confused. No. 4 FTS was based in Egypt until 1 Sep 39 when it moved to Habbaniyah, Iraq. The use of a single code letter, in this case 'X', is consistent with aircraft of that unit. Oxfords of 4 FTS wore a range of colour schemes. Some were overall yellow (eg L4667 'J' seen in "Hidden Victory") while others wore DE/DG over yellow, some with high demarkation between upper and lower surfaces (eg P1945 'E' also seen in "Hidden Victory") while others had a low demarkation (eg L4564 'W' seen on p.167 of "Dust Clouds in the Middle East").

I'm pretty sure P1940 'X' matches the scheme worn by L4564 - DE/DG over yellow.

Sorry for being boring...

[KRK4m]

@Bentwaters81TFW - absolutely not; TLS was Dark Green over Dark Earth (plus shadow-shading of Light Green and Light earth on biplanes)

@Mark Mackenzie - I'd like to have all these things clear, but just a few weeks ago I have read on BM that:

In this post I'd like to take us back to late 1941 and early 1942... and initially retread some familiar ground. I made a light-hearted reference above to the short-lived "Tropical Land Scheme" of Dark Green and Mid Stone, which briefly existed by error in AMO A.513 10th July 1941. This was hastily corrected in SY312/DIY, dated 3rd August 1941, to Dark Earth and Mid Stone, as per the previous scheme in AMO 926 of December 1940. It isn't clear that this correction was effective. It was followed by Air Ministry Postagram S.59966/11/F.O.6 dated 30/10/41 later in the year confirming DE/MS for overseas, but as late as November 1941 Hawkers are writing asking for confirmation that overseas Hurricanes should be painted DG/DE, which does suggest some lack of clarity. [Graham Boak, unedited]

www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234999821-burma-hurricanes-in-desert-camouflage/page-2

As the Oxford picture mentioned above has been taken in this very period (2nd half of 1941) it COULD be possible that the a/c had been recently repainted from the TLS of DG/DE into the (then) compulsory TROPICAL Land Scheme of DG and Middle Stone.

Cheers

Michael

Edited August 13, 2016 by KRK4m

[mhaselden]

What makes you think this photo was taken in in the second half of 1941? It matches camouflage (L4564 'W') which was worn in May 1941 during the siege of Habbaniyah. As noted in my prior post, 4 FTS aircraft carried a range of markings - it seems that total uniformity was not of paramount importance. Also, all other aircraft from that unit that had camouflaged upper surfaces all seem to show DE/DG. Sorry it's boring but it's the most likely scenario.

[bentwaters81tfw]

@Bentwaters81TFW - absolutely not; TLS was Dark Green over Dark Earth (plus shadow-shading of Light Green and Light earth on biplanes)

Absolutely was. TLS for the desert was how I described it. I have a copy of the official documents.

[KRK4m]

OK - English is not my native tongue For me TLS means Temperate Land Scheme (wchich excludes desert as it is). Desert Scheme is Desert Scheme...

OK, Mhaselden, I do agree with you that TLS over Yellow is the most likely option. But you know - hope dies last. I just said "she COULD be repainted"...

What makes me think it's the 2nd half of 1941? Perhaps the Egyptian location, as the 4 FTS has been disbanded on 1st July 1941 - earlier the plane should stay in Iraq.

Cheers

Michael

[bentwaters81tfw]

That's OK, it gets confusing in the technical notes. Once you get to 1942, the desert schemes were dropped and everything went grey and green. I've been researching a particular Beaufighter from 89 sqn, which was going to be DE/MS over Black, until the orders changed, and I was lucky to find a photo of the machine and crew in theatre, and it had been re assigned from Malta.

[Nick Millman]

What makes you think this photo was taken in in the second half of 1941? It matches camouflage (L4564 'W') which was worn in May 1941 during the siege of Habbaniyah. As noted in my prior post, 4 FTS aircraft carried a range of markings - it seems that total uniformity was not of paramount importance. Also, all other aircraft from that unit that had camouflaged upper surfaces all seem to show DE/DG. Sorry it's boring but it's the most likely scenario.

Also the scheme required by the prevailing AMO and DTD Circular. The AMO appendix table includes the option of Sky under surfaces but the DTD text makes it clear that yellow was required for type.

Nick

[Nick Millman]

That's OK, it gets confusing in the technical notes. Once you get to 1942, the desert schemes were dropped and everything went grey and green. I've been researching a particular Beaufighter from 89 sqn, which was going to be DE/MS over Black, until the orders changed, and I was lucky to find a photo of the machine and crew in theatre, and it had been re assigned from Malta.

Desert scheme is included in AMO A.664 of July 1942 and DTD Circular No.360 Issue 2 Appendix 3 of February 1943 for day bombers, day fighters and night bombers in desert areas. Night fighters went to Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey but a correction in AMO A.1096 of October 1942 added "or desert scheme" to the Night Fighters abroad section of the appendix.

Temperate Land scheme (TLS) is Dark Green and Dark Earth. Desert scheme (DS) is Dark Earth and Mid Stone.

Nick

[KRK4m]

So leave alone the P1940 from No.4 FTS in her "boring" TLS (DG/DE) over Yellow scheme. In your opinion AZ/Admiral replicated her colours right.

Another candidate for the RAF "desert" Oxford is PG951 taken over by the Egyptian AF from RAF in 1945. The desert scheme of DE/MS over some (perhaps Azure or Mediterranean Light) blue is shown by Printscale in their 72-089 set

http://www.printscale.org/data/small/7208902.jpg

But how about the colour layout (haven't seen such a scheme on Oxford) and earlier history of the a/c? Is it documented (units, codes, a.s.o)?

Cheers

Michael

[jimmaas]

Not an expert on Iraq or Middle East Oxfords, but one thing hit me immediately from that Printscale instruction sheet - the ambulance aircraft should have white, not yellow, undersurfaces.

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 8/13/2016 at 11:35 PM, KRK4m said:

@Bentwaters81TFW - absolutely not; TLS was Dark Green over Dark Earth (plus shadow-shading of Light Green and Light earth on biplanes)

@Mark Mackenzie - I'd like to have all these things clear, but just a few weeks ago I have read on BM that:

In this post I'd like to take us back to late 1941 and early 1942... and initially retread some familiar ground. I made a light-hearted reference above to the short-lived "Tropical Land Scheme" of Dark Green and Mid Stone, which briefly existed by error in AMO A.513 10th July 1941. This was hastily corrected in SY312/DIY, dated 3rd August 1941, to Dark Earth and Mid Stone, as per the previous scheme in AMO 926 of December 1940. It isn't clear that this correction was effective. It was followed by Air Ministry Postagram S.59966/11/F.O.6 dated 30/10/41 later in the year confirming DE/MS for overseas, but as late as November 1941 Hawkers are writing asking for confirmation that overseas Hurricanes should be painted DG/DE, which does suggest some lack of clarity. [Graham Boak, unedited]

www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234999821-burma-hurricanes-in-desert-camouflage/page-2

As the Oxford picture mentioned above has been taken in this very period (2nd half of 1941) it COULD be possible that the a/c had been recently repainted from the TLS of DG/DE into the (then) compulsory TROPICAL Land Scheme of DG and Middle Stone.

Cheers

Michael

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 8/14/2016 at 12:45 AM, KRK4m said:

OK - English is not my native tongue For me TLS means Temperate Land Scheme (wchich excludes desert as it is). Desert Scheme is Desert Scheme...

OK, Mhaselden, I do agree with you that TLS over Yellow is the most likely option. But you know - hope dies last. I just said "she COULD be repainted"...

What makes me think it's the 2nd half of 1941? Perhaps the Egyptian location, as the 4 FTS has been disbanded on 1st July 1941 - earlier the plane should stay in Iraq.

Cheers

Michael

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[KRK4m]

You are drawing YOUR own conclusion when you say that "It isn't clear that this correction was effective". Graham incorrectly quoted the letter from Hawkers that I posted on this forum. The letter does not ask for confirmation; it is merely a statement from Hawkers concerning the colours Hurricanes were being delivered in and no relation is given to the earlier AMO.

Mark,

I have no documents to proof any matter concerning the RAF camouflage history and this is the reason for my presence here. I just ask questions to make things clear as all my knowledge is based on hundreds of books an articles I have read in last 50 years.

And I'm not hesistant to agree with your opinion - even the existence of real a/c (hastily perhaps) painted in the so-called "intermediate" land camouflage like Dark Green/Middle Stone, Dark Green/Light Earth or Dark Earth/Light Earth is not enough to call any of them (official) Tropical Land Scheme.

To make things clear there were only two official schemes featuring any kind of brownish hue: Temperate Land (Dark Green/Dark Earth) and Desert (Dark Earth/Middle Stone). And what about the Grand Slam Lancasters? Was the Day Bomber Scheme an official name?

In one point, however, I can't agree with you - this is not me who's drawing his own conclusion about the clearness of the AMO 1941 correction. I just have cited the words of Graham EXACTLY (CtrlC then CtrlV) as he had said that. Thus this is HIS conclusion...

BTW would you please be so kind to have a look at the Hawker Hart thread. Some time ago you have posted there a picture of Audax that raises my interest.

Cheers

Michael

[Mark Mackenzie]

On 8/14/2016 at 4:37 PM, KRK4m said:

Mark,

I have no documents to proof any matter concerning the RAF camouflage history and this is the reason for my presence here. I just ask questions to make things clear as all my knowledge is based on hundreds of books an articles I have read in last 50 years.

And I'm not hesistant to agree with your opinion - even the existence of real a/c (hastily perhaps) painted in the so-called "intermediate" land camouflage like Dark Green/Middle Stone, Dark Green/Light Earth or Dark Earth/Light Earth is not enough to call any of them (official) Tropical Land Scheme.

To make things clear there were only two official schemes featuring any kind of brownish hue: Temperate Land (Dark Green/Dark Earth) and Desert (Dark Earth/Middle Stone). And what about the Grand Slam Lancasters? Was the Day Bomber Scheme an official name?

In one point, however, I can't agree with you - this is not me who's drawing his own conclusion about the clearness of the AMO 1941 correction. I just have cited the words of Graham EXACTLY (CtrlC then CtrlV) as he had said that. Thus this is HIS conclusion...

BTW would you please be so kind to have a look at the Hawker Hart thread. Some time ago you have posted there a picture of Audax that raises my interest.

Cheers

Michael

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie

[KRK4m]

Back to the PG951 Oxford T1 after six years 🧐

Was it an RAF trainer (Yellow undersides) or a communications aircraft (Sky or Azure undersurfaces) before the 1945 transfer to the Egyptian AF?

Or have other Oxfords wearing RAF Desert (DE/MS) camo been discovered in the meantime?

I found a picture of Oxford in a desert camouflage awaiting repair or overhaul at the Maintenance Unit Brindisi in 1944 (IWM CNA 3285), but the Spitfires and Hurricanes crammed around obscure the serial number and a possible letter or number next to the fuselage roundel. Anyway the undersurfaces of this particular machine are either Yellow or Sky - Azure Blue should look darker.

Cheers

Michael

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by KRK4m