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Navy Bird

1:72 Scale Resin Blackburn Buccaneer S.Mk.1

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On 8/18/2016 at 02:06, TheBaron said:

Don't know if this of any use Bill? From Aeroguide 30:

<snip>

The same publication has a number of b/w S1 photos with those same tonality differences you mention above regarding radome colour/weathering. In those photos it appears to be actual, rather than the result of shading due to the phase angle of the light.

HTH,

Tony

 

Thanks, Tony. Having another read through the instruction booklet, CMR state that the radome is "Natural Fiberglas" for which they offer up FS33434 as a possible match. That colour is a deep mustard yellow (German mustard, of course, so a bit of brown mixed in). It looks nothing like the colour photos.

If the radome is unpainted Fiberglas, which makes a lot sense to me, then I would expect a lot of tonality changes from different lots of resin, and as the radome ages. Gunze has a colour called "Radome" which I think would be a good base colour for the nose cone. It's a light tan, and is quite similar to what we see on XN92(?) above.

 

On 8/18/2016 at 03:18, CedB said:

"Yup, the nose will be open. I can't let that detail go to waste!" Thanks Bill, you've made an old man very happy :)

 

True, but it give this old man a lot more work to do. Ah, the things I do to placate the BM throng. :)

 

On 8/18/2016 at 03:29, perdu said:

Bill I think the changes of colour on radomes is normal, possibly a result of different resin mixes - different day of mixing

I remember the very obvious colour changes on E E Lightning radar cones when they were in service, as an ATC Cadet my squadron spent a glorious week playing round the flight line at RAF Wattisham

Some were almost green others a very faded straw colour, at least on the Buccs the colours are similar

I keep looking at the white scheme too, scary but awfully enticing

 

Thanks - see my response to Tony above.

 

Wow, you spent a week on a Lightning flight line? I've only seen them in a museum. I'm jealous!

 

On 8/18/2016 at 03:38, 71chally said:

Trick o' the light I would say.

The picture is taken on a tripod at a very very slow shutter speed to use the available light (!?!) at the museum.

If you look carefully you can see the faint delineation of where the external white & EDSG finishes, there does seem to be a tad of overspray in one area. The natural light mainly from above is making the bottom half of the intake tube look lighter than the top half.

However I get that this is only one aircraft, and as it happens not in the scheme that you have chosen.

Very nice option that you have gone for.

My first thought was red for the air brake interiors, but I think the kit guide could be correct as seen another picture which is a middish hue but with mottled very dark areas of what I assume is grease.

Be interesting to know why the intake rings did get that buff (sometimes greyish) colour at one stage, they only seem to used on the pre-production aircraft and briefly on early production aircraft (note they feature on the Lossie shot, but gone in the Ark shot), early intake de-icing perhaps?

 

Thanks. CMR give an option for the inside of the air brakes on the all-white XN934. The first is Light Admiralty Grey. The second is Yellow-Brown (with FS 30266 or 30215 as potential matches) covered with an oil based protective wash. I think I'll go for the first one, but the photos indicate a lot of grease/oil, probably used for corrosion protection, so I need to add that too.

 

On 8/18/2016 at 04:09, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I am so loving this discussion - I have all the constituent parts / modifications in my stash for a 1/48 S1, and mine will also be Anti-Flash White, so all contributions gratefully received. The only thing i would add is that the photo of 117 looks very dark, so it would be easy to be misled about shades. The radome was definitely a tan colour, not the brown shoe polish shade we see here. Even the sky... I know it's Lossie so barely gets light at some times of year, but even so!

 

A 1:48 scale S.1! Nice! Will this be a conversion of the Airfix kit? Best get started on that baby. :)

 

On 8/18/2016 at 04:44, 71chally said:

Hope these help, also from the excellent 'Wooley Family' site, note the air brake colour and the one furthest from the camera.

http://www.woolleyfamily.co.uk/Aircraft_parked_upfront2.jpg

http://www.woolleyfamily.co.uk/Wessex_Buccaneer.jpg

My personal thoughts on the intake tubes, and bearing in mind the making an A55 out of U & ME (or just me!) edict!

The intake rings are clearly a tan or grey colour on very early S.1s. Did these rings do something?

Very shortly they reverted to the overall colour of the aircraft, ie white or EDSG over white split, or even just EDSG on a white & EDSG split aircraft. the external colour carries into the inside by varying amounts, but seems up to a foot inside.

The rest to my eyes just looks a very dull metal which has tarnished through use in dirty salt air etc. This would fit with similar intake trunking detail to Scimitar and Sea Vixen and early S.2s, this is from visual inspection of preserved (which should be noted) aircraft and not just photos.

I can't really see why they would be painted a brown colour, especially when the colour wasn't used elsewhere.

Just my two penneth!

I'm sure none of this is going to effect what s clearly going to be a superb build here.

Like FAAWAFU I enjoy this sort of minutiae, or as I tell the missus, I revel in banality!

 

Excellent observations and great photos, thank you! I think a real dark, burnished metal in the intake tubes may indeed look brown. By the way, banality is good thing!

 

On 8/18/2016 at 05:44, 71chally said:

BTW have you got 'The Buccaneers' film at all?

There is superb and sharp S.1 footage on it, but detail shots are fleeting. The period is c'65 so after your model period, air brake and undercarriage are painted in that strange bright green/yellow colour (also seen on Vixen U/C of that era).

 

No I don't, but I will go looking for it. Is it on YouTube?

 

On 8/18/2016 at 06:09, general melchett said:

Bill, I went for WEM's excellent WEMCC RN03 ColourCoats Light Admiralty Grey enamel. Dick Ward of Modeldecal pointed out on his sheet 20, (1972 for the S.2 but would have applied to the S.1 as well), "The interior surfaces of the Buccaneer wheel wells, inside faces of undercarriage doors and rear mounted air-brakes, undercarriage legs and wheel hubs are gloss pale-greenish-blue*, similar to BS381c697 Light Admiralty Grey.", if anyone would know he would, hope that helps....

 

Although weathered this image gives some idea of an operational S.1's gear colouration,

http://www.abpic.co.uk/popup.php?q=1339983

As for the inner surfaces of the open air brakes it seems they were painted a dark grey possibly Dark Admiralty Grey for the 801 squadron shake down trials in 1963. (almost impossible to tell from early black and white photos and this colour may have only been applied for the duration of the trials).

Here's a nice image of the three aircraft during the trials....the nearest aircraft XN935's airbrakes seem to show a heavily weathered grey to me but that's just my take on it.

It also appears that the dark colour continued inside the inner brake actuator door edges and mech areas too....

http://www.blackburn-buccaneer.co.uk/Pages3_files/photo6_Index.html

Of interest is the wing stay visible and the dark rearmost tip of the tailplane cone, (dark tan ?)...

Great job on the cockpit..

 

Thanks! Nice photos, I'm glad you posted those links. The marking schemes and painting advice in the CMR instructions are copyright Andy White, and he is also a subject matter expert. As one of your photos shows, the inside of the air brakes are heavily weathered so whether I start with Light or Dark Admiralty Grey may not be a big deal. It's the grease/oil wash that I've got to get right. Hmmm.

 

I think you're right about the tip of the air brake cone - it does look like a darker colour, I would say it's probably steel or some other dark metallic. CMR don't give any instructions about painting the tail cone tip.

 

Great stuff, thank you everyone! We'll make a good model out of this yet. :)

 

Cheers,

Bill

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You really need to see it, it was an RN instructional film made around '64-'65 aboard Eagle, very nice crisp colour sequences of Gannets, Wessex & Sea Vixens, but it concentrates on a young rookie crew of a Buccaneer S.1 and their Sqn (800 I think). Superb footage, including from the cockpit while topping up from a Scimitar, at what can only be called eye watering proximity!

I've never seen it on Youtube, unlike the other film on the DVD, Hand To Flying Stations aboard the Ark in 1975. I got the DVD from the FAAM shop.

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On 8/18/2016 at 15:27, 71chally said:

You really need to see it, it was an RN instructional film made around '64-'65 aboard Eagle, very nice crisp colour sequences of Gannets, Wessex & Sea Vixens, but it concentrates on a young rookie crew of a Buccaneer S.1 and their Sqn (800 I think). Superb footage, including from the cockpit while topping up from a Scimitar, at what can only be called eye watering proximity!

I've never seen it on Youtube, unlike the other film on the DVD, Hand To Flying Stations aboard the Ark in 1975. I got the DVD from the FAAM shop.

 

I searched for "The Buccaneers" on YouTube, and found a bunch of football games. But they were throwing the ball - what kind of "foot" ball is that?

 

Cheers,

Bill

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I searched for "The Buccaneers" on YouTube, and found a bunch of football games. But they were throwing the ball - what kind of "foot" ball is that?

Cheers,

Bill

A very good question Bill. I have often wondered how a game in which the ball is seldom kicked can be called football. Answers on a post card please.

Martin

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It's a good point Bill, but then I don't suppose it would be cool to call it 'catch the rugby ball and run like the clappers whilst avoiding being critically injured by deranged heavily armoured behemoths whose stated goal in life is to see you airlifted out of the stadium on life support..ball' really. Mind you in earlier days I played a lot of rugger for our school and county team and thought I'd like to have a go at this American Football lark which was all the rage at the time. So I went for a trial for a fairly local team, (the Crawley Raiders no less) and whilst I was quite nippy back then was constantly pummeled into oblivion by people with less than moral scruples and in flagrant disregard of any 'rules'.As soon as you don the battle dress it seems that anything goes. Needless to say I soon went back to the sanctity and honour, (not to mention relative safety) of the rugby field. I received the usual battle honours like a broken nose, dislocated fingers, blood stained bandana around the forehead etc but that was all part of the fun of the sport.....and didn't require traction and a ventilator !

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True, but it gives this old man a lot more work to do. Ah, the things I do to placate the BM throng.

More mob than throng, I fear!

Keep in mind that the operational Buccs had covers across the folded nose, so a lot of the detail you see in museum cabs doesn't have to be done. Can't find a clear shot, but it's just about visible in this one:

IMG_0749_zps8x8vxigi.jpg

And a further contribution to the intake and radome colour discussion (plus it's a cool pic):

IMG_0733_zps3zusamqp.jpg

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Geat photo from the days when we actually had a FAA (now we don't even seem to have a RAF :fight: ).

Lossie perchance?

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If the radome is unpainted Fiberglas, which makes a lot sense to me, then I would expect a lot of tonality changes from different lots of resin, and as the radome ages. Gunze has a colour called "Radome" which I think would be a good base colour for the nose cone. It's a light tan, and is quite similar to what we see on XN92(?) above.

The radome is made up from a honeycomb core with a fiberglass outer (I know this because as a young apprentice I cut one up with a 'senga' saw, and my arms still ach 25 years later!). The structure would in effect be transparent but with varying tinges of resin brown. The point being that depending on the light the shade will be different. The sun will shine through the nose radome making it appear light, where as the same material in the intake will have no light from the background and appear to be a solid dark colour. Not much help in tracking down the correct shade I know ................ have you thought about intake blanks? :evil_laugh:

Bob

Edit: you can see what I mean in the photo posted earlier in the thread. The nose is quite light where as the intake looks like a dark tan but are possibly of the same make up and material. I shall see if I can find any information on the make up.

XN92_.jpg

Edited by moaning dolphin

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Whilst searching for some relevant details I came across these forums

http://buccsociety.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=restorations

They haven't been updated for a few years but there are some nice shots of restorations, and there are other forums in there I haven't ventured into yet. Unfortunately the only S1's in there have painted intakes so don't answer any questions but I am quite confident in my reasonings in the post above. :D

Bob

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Geat photo from the days when we actually had a FAA (now we don't even seem to have a RAF :fight: ).

Lossie perchance?

I think it's actually Lee on Solent, which is a scary thought because it doesn't gave the longest runways in the world. They are assembled for a fly past for HM the Q. Note that the lead Vixen is a Mk1 but the rest are FAW2s.

The Scimitar really was a monster, wasn't it?

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Lee on Solent :o

But that's only about 4000ft!


The Scimitar really was a monster, wasn't it?


I always think it such a shame that Supermarine never made a pretty looking aircraft after the Spitfire. I guess they peaked early.

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Surely the Scimitar is pretty, one of the best looking jets ever I reckon.

The event was at RNAS Yeovilton and was the Golden Jubilee of the formation of the Fleet Air Arm, May 1964.

It consisted of 108 aircraft, 79 of which were meant to do a flypast before cloud dictated that only 4 of each type of the fixed-wing would fly, but the helos were unaffected.

The flypast was going to consist of 12 Buccaneer S.1s, 12 Vixen FAW.1 & 2s, 12 Scimitar, 12 Gannet AEW.3, T.5 & ECM.6, 12 Hunter T.8, 12 Wessex, 12 Wasp and the odd number being made up with the Swordfish.

There was also tactical displays by 8 Wessex HU.5s, 4 Wessex HAS.1 and 3 Whirlwinds.

It's a great picture as it shows the Buccs in transition from allover white to having EDSG tops, and notice the different colour u/c legs.

Now - who's for a diorama of the event?!

Edited by 71chally

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Wow, great photos. It's too bad the weather screwed up that flypast. That would have been a sight to see! Can you imagine all of those in formation? It would have been amazing.

 

I'm back at the Buccaneer today after taking some time on a side project. The cockpit is just about done (the seats will come later) and I hope to get the fuselage halves joined today.

 

I've also come down with a nasty respiratory infection and I'm on some pretty strong antibiotics. This may have been the result of my low white blood count which, of course, is brought on by the chemo. It's the chemo's job to kill those pesky carcinogenic white cells and it unfortunately takes out some good ones in the process. So I'm confined to the house, and if I can get everyone else out of the house, I can get some work done! :)

 

Cheers,

Bill

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Sorry to hear that Bill, hopefully you will recover soon. I know modelling is fairly hard under such conditions.

The full flypast was conducted during a rehearsal a few days earlier, but see very few pictures from that.

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Sorry to hear of your infection Bill, sadly it's one of the nasty side effects of chemo, (the medical worlds carpet bombing of the system and non selective), neutropenia and immunosuppression are common results. Hope the antibots aren't too bad, work quickly and your cell count rises quickly, a bit of a see saw really until things even out, can't be easy. We dealt with this quite often,keep yer chin up..

Great side project by the way, hope he remembers to remove the tennis balls when starting her up ! Now be a good chap and try and empty the house as soon as possible...

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What a rotten time you're having... sorry to hear that and I hope you get well soon Bill :)

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Surely the Scimitar is pretty, one of the best looking jets ever I reckon.

The event was at RNAS Yeovilton and was the Golden Jubilee of the formation of the Fleet Air Arm, May 1964.

It consisted of 108 aircraft, 79 of which were meant to do a flypast before cloud dictated that only 4 of each type of the fixed-wing would fly, but the helos were unaffected.

The flypast was going to consist of 12 Buccaneer S.1s, 12 Vixen FAW.1 & 2s, 12 Scimitar, 12 Gannet AEW.3, T.5 & ECM.6, 12 Hunter T.8, 12 Wessex, 12 Wasp and the odd number being made up with the Swordfish.

There was also tactical displays by 8 Wessex HU.5s, 4 Wessex HAS.1 and 3 Whirlwinds.

It's a great picture as it shows the Buccs in transition from allover white to having EDSG tops, and notice the different colour u/c legs.

Now - who's for a diorama of the event?!

Wow! Not the same occasion as this, then:

IMG_0759_zpsqdjfccox.jpg

Just the 36 Buccaneers (plus one rather startled looking Lightning and a regal Fulmar. My guess is that this IS Lossie, since Lossiemouth was HMS Fulmar.

Hope you feel better soon, Bill.

P.S. I too think the Scimitar was a good looking jet. My description of it as a monster was purely its size and bulk; the Vixen is no toy, but the Scimitars look appreciably larger despite being further away.

Edited by Ex-FAAWAFU

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Best wishes for a speedy recovery

Roger

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Some modelling has been accomplished in this thread. Order and a sense of purpose have returned to the world. :)

 

Earlier, I stated that I wanted to add a bulkhead of sorts so that the tailpipes have something more than a little lip to bottom out on when they are installed. CMR recommend styrene discs 10mm in diameter, but I found these to be too small. 12mm fits the internal shape much better - there wouldn't be any "see-through effect anyway since the intakes are sealed, but whatever. Here is the result, rather dapper if you ask me:

 

IMG_0618

 

Another reason why I like the 12mm diameter discs is that it's darn close to 36in in real life, and I just happen to think that any respectable British aircraft designer would use a nice Imperial value of 3ft for the inside diameter of the engine bay. No?

 

In the instruction booklet, there is an option for the position of the exhaust pipes, and it affects how much the exhausts stick out past the lip of the fuselage. For the all-white camouflage scheme, the drawing shows the exhaust and the fuselage flush, for all other schemes it protrudes 1mm. These discs are positioned so that the exhaust tube will be flush. If, after checking references, it's desired to have them protrude a bit, all that needs to be done is to put a spacer of appropriate thickness on the back of the exhausts.

 

The cockpit was finished, and given a coat of Future followed by a light wash and flat varnish.

 

IMG_0619

 

IMG_0620

 

IMG_0621

 

IMG_0622

 

I think the patchwork of decals worked out OK, maybe a bit more work than it was worth. There are two photoetch pieces that concern me - the first are the engine LP cock levers in the port console in the front cockpit, and the second is the canopy jettison handle on the port console in the rear cockpit. These were both quite fiddly, and I fully expect to lose these during protection of the cockpit during painting. But since you can't really see them without optical aid anyway I suppose it doesn't matter. :)

 

The next step was to install the instrument panel and cockpit into the top fuselage half. The fit was quite good, and I think the detail is excellent (even if I did forget to paint the fire extinguisher - will attend to that).

 

IMG_0630

 

IMG_0627

 

This is one of the reasons why I like resin - the detail is just so crisp. Now, about that casting defect on the port side forward front fuselage, the one that looks like a crack. The intake piece covers it completely! No one will ever know, well, except you and me, and, uh, untold thousands of mates. You guys won't tell, will you?

 

For some reason, I painted what looks like an eyepiece with Gunze Clear Orange. I think I was trying to replicate the classic "straw" coatings that went on military specification optics at the time. Then I found out that this guy is actually a "Wide Band Homer" - whether this is a radio device of some sort or a blind epic poet who's downed a few too many meat pies, we'll never know.

 

I have 30g of weight ready to go (CMR only recommend 27g) and that will be the next to go in, then we can get the fuselage halves together. I think I may do some experimenting first to determine exactly how much weight is needed. This means I'll have to tape everything together, a process that worked fine when I built the S.2 Brick. This one will need more weight since it has to go farther back - on the S.2 it was in the nose. Here it will be behind the cockpit for the most part.

 

Ta for now.

 

Cheers,

Bill

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"Wide Band Homer" seems to have been a typically vague description of early ESM; you'd detect radar emissions on it (& presumably home to them if they came from a Sverdlov!).

Judging from how hard it could be to interpret the assorted bleeps and squeaks on Orange Crop in the Sea King / Lynx, on equipment that was at least a generation later, O take my hat off to them if they hit anything secular out of it.

Your clear orange is plausible enough!

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I hope that respiratory bug is being firmly put in its place; get well soon Bill.

Purposeful work on the cockpit areas, the sidewall detail looks just about right from this distance. I know what you mean about levers etc. I always have a furious bout of introspection about the amount of time taken to fit small parts correctly correlated with the likelihood of their removal during paint.

Something about the tan colour of your radome gave me deja vu, and I realised I'd previously seen it in some colour shots of the inside of the resin radome from a Meteor NF.14. Exactly the same colour.

Take care,

Tony

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Grand job Bill.

As you say,resin is so crisp and progress nice and rapid.

Love the 12mm disc idea,another wheeze for the pinch and use bank(you'll have forgotten though by the time Miggs)

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