roundel review

[72modeler]

It's me again!

Believe it or not, I found this while looking for AAF P-40K desert scheme references! Very good reference article and many good color photos, a good percentage of which I have never seen before. I hope you enjoy looking at them and find them useful- some good modeling possibilities in there! (This should keep Dana Bell busy for a while- ha!)

(It's hotter'n blazes here in Texas today!)

Mike

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/382/Roundel-Round-Up.aspx

[Dana Bell]

Hi Mike,

THAT was fun! I'll have to sit down for a full read later, but it was nicely presented with great pix. I'll leave any accuracy comments to the experts, but it seemed pretty good from my side of the pond.

Cheers,

Dana

[Graham Boak]

There's a lot in that, some of which does would benefit from expansion and dates adding, but to pick on a few points.

This A/B/C notation is not official but was invented postwar by Bruce Robertson. I don't recall seeing this 2 suffix (as in B2 C2) before.

The RAF roundel carried on uppersurfaces of vehicles in the desert was not specifically for RAF vehicles but for all - I'm not familiar with that Arm of Service (including camel) emblem but it is an Army marking rather than RAF. Incidentally this roundel matched the A roundel with a narrower yellow band but came into use at much the same time as the replacement of this by the C roundel on aircraft.

The British Pacific Fleet marking on the Seafire III was not a SEAC roundel with US-style bars but, if anything, an RAAF roundel. It is commonly known, unsurprisingly, as a BBF roundel.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Graham Boak

[Black Knight]

I read it. Its a good primer. One of the best I've read.

But note to readers; it's Canadian so it only covers Canadian roundels after the period of their change to include the maple leaf

[tempestfan]

I assume the Swordfish on floats with the apparently sky blue (non-capitalised) undersurfaces is just suffering from some colour shift?

[Seahawk]

Great pics but it's a bit Wikipedia-ish: 90% of it is correct and 10% is roughly thereabouts but not quite accurate. The writer is on particularly thin ice when attempting to explain East Indies Fleet and British Pacific Fleet markings - but then most people excepting the late Geoff Thomas have been.

The formation sign with the camel is, I believe, that of GHQ Middle East, though it would normally be on a black rather than black and yellow square.

[GAF]

It's me again!

Believe it or not, I found this while looking for AAF P-40K desert scheme references! Very good reference article and many good color photos, a good percentage of which I have never seen before. I hope you enjoy looking at them and find them useful- some good modeling possibilities in there! (This should keep Dana Bell busy for a while- ha!)

(It's hotter'n blazes here in Texas today!)

Mike

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/382/Roundel-Round-Up.aspx

Nice article. Thanks for posting!

(It's ALWAYS hotter'n blazes here in Texas!)

[alex]

Most roundels were painted on at the factory where the aircraft was built, but they were not always executed to the most recent standards. Some roundels were applied as pre-made decals at the factory, while, after repairs in the field, other roundels were applied by hand and could have spurious diameter ratios or even additional outlines. There was an official drafted standard for roundel application, describing the type of roundel, its diameter and its exact position on the fuselage and wings for each aircraft type, but the exigencies of an air force at war caused many a roundel to be applied with only a nod to the rules.

Ah, this will shatter some peoples world!

Nice pics, didn't even knew all different type of roundels. Thanks for sharing!

Alex

[dalea]

Australian Blue/White roundels have nothing to do with S.E.A.C. roundels. Australia was part of S.W P A. (South-West Pacific Area)

[Vanroon]

Australian Blue/White roundels have nothing to do with S.E.A.C. roundels. Australia was part of S.W P A. (South-West Pacific Area)

Well covered by Ian K Baker in his Aviation History Colouring book monographs, Vol.4 (1921-1941) and Vol.5 (1942 - 1947). His short run Vol.19 has brushed out colour chips covering the RAAF main colour palette 1921-1947.

Grant

[JackG]

There is a contact button at the bottom of the web page. I'm sure being Canadian, they will be accepting of any correction or additions the members have presented here.

regards,

Jack

[Nick Millman]

Australian Blue/White roundels have nothing to do with S.E.A.C. roundels. Australia was part of S.W P A. (South-West Pacific Area)

Well to be pedantic they do - sort of! The first SEAC roundels were blue and white and predicated on the RAAF roundels. The Air HQ India to Air Ministry memo of 11 May 1943 suggesting the elimination of red from the national markings recommends the "adoption of the following scheme used by RAAF in Pacific Theatre" then goes on to describe the RAAF markings.

Even the smaller size SEAC roundels were at first blue and white, adopted from July 1943 with the light blue replacing white only from September of that year.

Nick

[Mike Starmer]

Whilst interesting the author has drawn some inaccurate conclusions, as Graham pointed out. The refueling vehicle is a Bedford MWV belonging to GHQ Cairo in Tunisia 1943. It has the combined sign, officially a gold camel on black but the reverse was not uncommon. The roof roundel is the correct marking for all 8th Army vehicles as introduced 9th June 1942 at the request of the RAF. Specified to be 2 feet 7 inches radius with outer yellow ring 6 inches wide. The Blue and White rings to be 10 inches wide with the Red centre 10 inches diameter. Where this size was too large for the available space then it may be reduced to be a large as possible in the same proportions. should yellow paint not be available then the roundel must be applied leaving room for the yellow to be applied at a later date. On Light Stone coloured vehicles this was often not done due to lack of contrast. This marking was retained on vehicles in Sicily and Italy until replaced with the white star allied marking in May 1943. RAF vehicles displayed a roundel, 9 inches in diameter on the right side front of the vehicle.

The Battle with the new A type roundel does not have an A1 type painted over, The white band and numeral has been applied over an early yellow numeral. The Bostons are in process of having A1 type repainted to C1 type. The Lysander with B2? wing roundels. This is an example of the yellow outer being over painted to a B type, you can see the new camouflage colour surround.

As an aside, note too that the early Spitfires, Hurricanes etc. have very light grey codes. These are Sky Grey as specified in the AMOs for 1938 when codes in colour 33B/157 were introduced. Medium sea Grey was not used for codes until early 1940 and then only for day fighters. Look at other period photographs and you will see that these codes often appear white or very close in tone to the roundel white. This colour was retained for bombers and nightfighters until well into late 1941 until red came into use.

The Swordfish floatplane has Sky Grey undersurfaces, the film has discoloured to a blue tinge.

[Nick Millman]

Hi Mike

AMO 154/39 cites "grey paint" and 33B/157 which is the stores reference for a half-gallon container of Medium Sea Grey to DTD 314 or 517. The equivalent for Sky Grey is 33B/287.

On 7 October 1936 the Director of Technical Development had instructed RAE to standardise the grey used for identification markings on camouflaged aircraft as Sea Grey, Medium. However there is some mystery here as the stores paint container listing contained in the September 1939 statement of camouflage policy contains no Medium Sea Grey. It does contain container sizes for Sky Grey and Sky Blue but with no allocated stores reference numbers which are left blank. Instructions to civilian contractors and service units during 1940 continue to refer simply to "grey paint" for code letters.

DTD Circular No.83 of August 1940 also cites "grey paint".

Regards

Nick