Tiger Models Nagmashon

[david v]

Hi Guys, just wondering if i could fit the Meng Models Nochri Dalet Mine roller system to this kit,as i have pics of them fitted, and as Meng is the only one to sell the Mine roller seperatly, just wondered how hard it would be. Any help would be much appreciated.

Dave

[PhilHendry]

Sorry, I'm coming to this topic very late, because I've only just joined...

 

The Meng Models Nochri Dalet mine roller should fit, providing you replace the mounting in the kit (which is intended to mount the roller on a Merkava III) with the Legend Productions LF1332 IDF PUMA Nochri Mine Roller Adapter: http://www-legend.co.kr/portfolio/lf1332-idf-puma-nochri-mine-roller-adapter/ - I think!! I haven't tried this - but the Puma is a Centurion, and the Nagmashon is also a Centurion - so how hard can it be? ;-)

[Kingsman]

As Phil says, the adapter device modelled by Legend is intended for the sole purpose of fitting the Nochri Dalet to the Puma.  You can't fit that roller to a Puma without it, a fact that Legend have clearly cottoned-on to.  Here's an empty adapter on a Puma, and below that is a Puma with the roller fitted.  In my second life I'm planning a Puma with the roller and the Carpet launcher.  I've got all the bits.  Been retired for a month and haven't even touched a model yet .........

 

 

 

[PhilHendry]

Ta for the photos! Israeli armour is so fascinating!

 

Once I finish my Achzarit Early, I plan to do a Puma with a Nochri Dalet (and maybe a Carpet too). 

[Kingsman]

The photos are just from the internet: there are more out there.  

 

Back to the original question, I don't believe the roller would be fitted to a Nagmachon Doghouse as it's more of an urban warfare vehicle, and with the reactive armour on the glacis the adapator wouldn't fit.  I have found a couple of photos of the early Nagmachon fitted with the earlier KMT-4 roller.  AEF Designs kitted this configuration back in the day.  The photos don't show it clearly, but you probably need the old Legend Sh'ot KMT Adaptor LF1161 for this.  Early Nagmachon was a general APC before the Doghouse conversion made it more of an urban specialist, so KMT rollers would not be too unusual.

 

Ironmongery at both ends on the Puma kinda balances out.  Hope you've got deep pockets, though.  The Legend roller adapter, carpet launcher, set of rockets, detail set, late update set and stowage set (if you want that) will run you at least £115.  You could replace the OWS too if you're so inclined.  I'm up to £212 worth of parts so far.  It doesn't seem that Pumas carry the Droid/Windbreaker ATMD pods: I haven't seen any photos but it is mentioned on a couple of sites, as is a laser IED disruptor.  Puma was conceived as a specialist minefield breacher.  Despite it's sexy name, it's an acronym for Poretz Mokshim Handasati – Minefield Breakthrough Vehicle.

 

I suggest you replace the Puma roadwheels as HobbyBoss have included vinyl tyres, which can be hard to work with and especially to paint.  Tiger very thoughtfully include hard plastic black tyres in the Nagmachon: much easier to work with.  You'll need Merkava wheels for the Puma.  I got the Panzer Art Mk4 ones, 35176. The Puma in the lower picture has an additional something along the side of the crew compartment.  I believe it's additional reactive armour.  No-one does parts for this yet.  A long time ago there was a resin Urdan dozer blade kit suitable for a Puma.  Very hard to find.  There was limited last-ever re-release last year but the guy wanted nearly £50 for them.

 

I have the Meng Achzarit and a bunch of AM parts to do too.  So many models, so few lives......  I got some Legend parts for that too, and the Blast rear basket.

 

I ended up buying the Legend stuff directly from Legend as I couldn't find anyone who had everything I wanted in stock, and multiple shipping from several places was going to cost a fortune.  They don't have an online store as such, but I emailed to ask if they would sell direct and they sent me an invoice for a PayPal payment.  Service and shipping were good, but I got stung for £76 in customs charges - which was fair but unwelcome.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Das Abteilung
missing detail

[PhilHendry]

1 hour ago, Das Abteilung said:

Ironmongery at both ends on the Puma kinda balances out.  Hope you've got deep pockets, though.  The Legend roller adapter, carpet launcher, set of rockets, detail set, late update set and stowage set (if you want that) will run you at least £115.  You could replace the OWS too if you're so inclined.  I'm up to £212 worth of parts so far.  It doesn't seem that Pumas carry the Droid/Windbreaker ATMD pods: I haven't seen any photos but it is mentioned on a couple of sites, as is a laser IED disruptor.  Puma was conceived as a specialist minefield breacher.  Despite it's sexy name, it's an acronym for Poretz Mokshim Handasati – Minefield Breakthrough Vehicle.

 

I suggest you replace the Puma roadwheels as HobbyBoss have included vinyl tyres, which can be hard to work with and especially to paint.  Tiger very thoughtfully include hard plastic black tyres in the Nagmachon: much easier to work with.  You'll need Merkava wheels for the Puma.  I got the Panzer Art Mk4 ones, 35176. The Puma in the lower picture has an additional something along the side of the crew compartment.  I believe it's additional reactive armour.  No-one does parts for this yet.  A long time ago there was a resin Urdan dozer blade kit suitable for a Puma.  Very hard to find.  There was limited last-ever re-release last year but the guy wanted nearly £50 for them.

 

Thanks for all this - very useful info! I was tempted to make a Puma next, but put off by the vinyl tyres... The fact that it needs Merkava wheels kicks that objection into touch - I think I'm thankful, but I'm sure my wallet won't be. ;-)

Edited April 12, 2017 by PhilHendry
Formatting

[Kingsman]

I only paid about £8.50 for my Panzer Art wheels, but then there's shipping: not so bad if you order a bunch of stuff.  I think I probably got mine from Jadar Model in Warsaw: good store - you should check it out.  Prices for European products are good, especially Eastern European, stock is live and I've never had any problems with them.  I saved about 10% last time by paying in Zloty rather than Euros, but you can't do that by PayPal.  You might also check out Modellbau Koenig and Der Sockelshop in Germany and Euro Model Shop in Switzerland.  I saved a bit there by paying in Swiss Francs.  Many other stores are of course available.  We do seem to pay over the odds for a lot of brands in the UK and many are simply not available here, or only available in very limited items.

[PhilHendry]

Sorry to hijack a thread on the Nagmashon with questions about Puma...

 

The Desert Eagle book on the Puma says that the Cent suspension was replaced with Merkava I/II units, and that it uses Merkava hubs with Cent wheels. Sounds like a modelling can of worms! I haven't looked hard enough, yet, to spot the differences.

[PhilHendry]

And now I've seen a photo with a mixture of Cent and Merkava wheels... At least now I can see the difference!

[Kingsman]

Actually guys, I was wrong above about the roadwheels in the Tiger Nagmachon kits and on the Puma.  Problem of an ageing memory: I got the kits down and had a look this time!

 

The Tiger Early Nag kit has vinyl tyres, which very strangely also include the outer rim of the wheels themselves - complicates painting rather than simplifies. It has Centurion wheels and I've got a set of Legend Centurion wheels as replacements - although the Panzer Art ones are equally appropriate, cheaper and just as good.  I already had the Legend ones left over from something else.

 

The Tiger Doghouse Nag has 5-hole Merkava wheels, but this time with hard tyres and rims in sand coloured plastic: old school, all good.

 

The HobbyBoss Puma kit does indeed have Centurion hubs with a choice of 3 and 5-hole Merkava wheels as noted by Phil, but also has vinyl tyres which again include the wheel rims in the same strange manner as the Tiger Nag wheels.  So my Merk 4 wheels are wrong.  No worry, they're better than those in the Academy Merk 4 so I'll use them there.  But what to do about the Puma wheels?  Looking very closely, the differences in the visible part of the main hub body are indiscernible, certainly in this scale. The key difference is the hub cap, for which the kit parts appear to be too flat anyway.  I think that by just removing the central hub cap detail from a set of resin Merkava wheels the right effect will be achieved.  However, I have found pictures of Pumas clearly fitted with Merkava hubs as well as wheels and as I want to do a late configuration I think unmodified Merkava wheels will be appropriate. See below for one example: note the red-painted central detail (grease point?) not present on Centurion hubs.

 

 While the BitzKreig wheels are nice, they're $33, so it looks like Panzer Art again: RE35-011 for the Merk 1.  Their RE35-012 set for Merk 2/3 includes 2 spider wheels for the leading wheel stations, and so is not usable. The Legend wheels were only appropriate for a Merk 4, and seem to be discontinued anyway

 

[PhilHendry]

Thanks for that! I thought I'd seen a photo of a Puma with a 'spider' wheel, but I must have been mistaken, because I've been through my browser history and can't see it. I think a set of Panzer Art RE35-011 is in my future to go with a HobbyBoss Puma - it's just too nice a wagon to miss!

[PhilHendry]

Dragging this hi-jacked thread back into the land of the living again... I really wish there was somewhere 'dedicated' to discussing IDF subjects, which was accessible to ordinary mortals...

 

Anyway, I now have the Panzer Art Merkava 1 wheels - wow, what great castings. 'Cleaning' the unwanted details off the hubs won't take much effort either. So that's probably my next project. I'll need to 'bite the bullet' and find a way of depicting the anti-skid coating - and work out just which surfaces have it.

 

I've also acquired the Sabingamartin books on the early Achzarit and the Puma - great resources! The Puma book shows that Pumas can have Cent wheels or a variety of Merkava wheels - or even a mixture!

[Kingsman]

There is a dedicated IDF modelling site, http://www.idf-modelling.com. But it's been closed to new members for ever and you need to be a member to see anything.  Annoyingly, posted pictures do come up on Google but you can't get to the pages.

 

The moderator does open it to new members every now and again.  Twice I've tried to get registered but both times the registration process stubbornly refused to work despite several attempts.  Too many people trying or perhaps I was too slow and limited places had been taken.  But I'm still on the outside scratching at the window.

 

The Merkava was originally prototyped using many Centurion parts and I imagine this is why the wheels ended up being interchangeable on the hubs.  The designs of the wheels are very similar too.  I would not be surprised to find that the hubs themselves were actually interchangeable.  They do look very similar, bit it is the internals that will govern fit.  As Centurion suspension has been replaced over time by Merkava units it is logical that production of the old Centurion parts in parallel would become undesirable and logistics would become unnecessarily complicated, so their replacement seems inevitable.

[PhilHendry]

10 minutes ago, Das Abteilung said:

There is a dedicated IDF modelling site, http://www.idf-modelling.com. But it's been closed to new members for ever and you need to be a member to see anything.  Annoyingly, posted pictures do come up on Google but you can't get to the pages.

 

The moderator does open it to new members every now and again.  Twice I've tried to get registered but both times the registration process stubbornly refused to work despite several attempts.  Too many people trying or perhaps I was too slow and limited places had been taken.  But I'm still on the outside scratching at the window.

 

I'm stood there with you, nose pressed to the glass...